Can a character be a priest of two Rune Cults?

[Arthur Severance]

I have two PCs in my group that are ready to become priests, one of Orlanth, the other of Lhankor Mhy.  They both have been initiates of Elmal as well.  

Both have asked whether they can become priests of both gods.  I've told them they can get rune points and rune spells from Elmal (although he is not detailed in the book I someone did a terrific write up on the web) as initiates and also gave them access to the Oath rune spell as rune priests of an associated cult.

However, they would like to become full priests of both gods.  One already meets the requirements, the other is very close.  Do the rules permit this?  How should I handle the tithing?  Technically they are already giving 9/10 of their income to their respective cults and 1/10 to Elmal, though in practice I have not made them pay the tithe to the cult of Elmal yet.  (They did the local cult a huge favor in game.)  They cannot really pay 18/10ths of their income to two cults.  Should I just have them pay 9/10 and rule it goes to the two cults somehow?  Or maybe that it is not even possible, since their duties to their main cult requires so much of their time?

I'd like to say yes to the request.  They have really thrown themselves into the Elmal storyline I gave them.  And the third priest in the group, who worships Yinkin, is likely to ask for this in relation to Orlanth down the line.

If I missed a rule that addresses this, can someone point me to it?  Or is it something that will be addressed in Gods of Glorantha when it comes out?

Thanks!

Art

[Joerg]

The closest thing I have seen to this effect is the character of Londra of Londros, a Sword of Humakt and associate priest of Orlanth currently residing at Old Wind Temple. These two roles take up 99% of her time and activities - luckily for her both those roles allow some adventuring on behalf of her congregations. She has practically no personal income, but expects to be well supplied by her cults.

Unless a player runs the local cult as the chief priest and has a say in the "for the cult" activities, such dual priesthood is a good way to mostly retire a player character, pulling the character back into active duty only occasionally while building up another, less "married" character for some old school adventuring.

[PhilHibbs]

I don't like saying "no", but no. Not for large mainstream cults anyway. I guess you could become a priest of an obscure revived religion like in a couple of the well known RQG scenarios which I will not name for spoiler reasons, as well as being a rune level of a more mainstream cult. And if you want to run a super high level game where everyone has a golf bag of magic weapons and a wallet full of Rune Level Reward Cards, then go for it. Don't let us stop you.

Oh, and in a similar vein, there isn't a writeup of Elmal for RQG because the cult was subsumed/transformed into Yelmalio (see Nick's manifesto for this and many more essays). But again, it's your Glorantha and that can be one of your varies.

[Kloster]

According to RQG, you can not be priest of 2 cults, but you can be priest/rune lord/runelord-priest of one cult and god-speaker (acolyte in RQ3 terms) of a non hostile nor enemy other cult. It would take 90% of the time for the 1st cult and 50% of the remaining time for the 2nd, leaving 5% for the character (same for resources).

Edited May 27, 2021 by Kloster
add comment on time

[Eff]

The main intent for the 9/10ths rule is to say that at the Rune level your character's time not adventuring is devoted to cultic duties. By the rules, someone with vast financial resources could simply pay cash value for a priesthood, which is certainly an option, albeit sinecures are also generally obvious to everyone. 

So functionally, your characters would need a way to be fulfilling both sets of duties at once in that 90% of their time. This is somewhat easier for Orlanth/Elmalio Kargzantirius dual-runeing, because getting to be the ceremonial Sun for a number of communities is an immediately viable role. Lhankor Mhy/Sun Jr. is significantly trickier. But if your players can come up with some synergy or syzygy between those two gods... sure, go ahead and let them. IMO, and in the spirit of MGF.

That said, I wouldn't give duplicate Allied Spirits or valuable gear out.

[Bill the barbarian]

13 minutes ago, Eff said:

By the rules, someone with vast financial resources could simply pay cash value for a priesthood, which is certainly an option, albeit sinecures are also generally obvious to everyone. 

My, my. You have a citation for that, it is one hell of a statement. Assuming correct, I like it a lot! Smacks of our world but it is so good I think I can for overlook my terra-phobia when dealing in matters of the Lozenge for a little while! Then again, I can think of a number foul priests behaving in a very earth-like manner in the canonical works... Using the office as a tool and barely doing the minimum necessary to fulfill the office. Why could not a very foul, despicable and scurrilous chief take money for one office sans the responsibility all while paying homage to another god entirely (and taking their money as well, of course!)?

Edited May 27, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Eff]

4 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

My, my. You have a citation for that, it is one hell of a statement. Assuming correct, I like it a lot! Smacks of our world but it is so good I think I can for overlook my terra-phobia when dealing in matters of the Lozenge for a little while! Then again, I can think of a number foul priests behaving in a very earth-like manner in the canonical works... Using the office as a tool and barely doing the minimum necessary to fulfill the office. Why could not a very foul, despicable and scurrilous chief take money for one office sans the responsibility all while paying homage to another god entirely (and taking their money as well, of course!)?

I don't think I can cite page references directly, but the rule is to contribute 90% of income (and time). So if you can qualify as a Rune priest on your basic merits, and have substantial savings, you could occupy a position on the basis of financial support. Which is entirely reasonable, especially for NPCs- you go into semi-retirement and spend your days dozing off in the temple courtyard, but you're single-handedly paying for all the sacramental oils and a black lamb every Sea Season, so nobody's going to tell you you *can't* be the Thundering Voice of Orlanth in the Wilmskirk temple...

All in my (devious-minded) opinion. 

[Bill the barbarian]

10 minutes ago, Eff said:

All in my (devious-minded) opinion. 

That’s what drew me to the post!

[Akhôrahil]

42 minutes ago, Eff said:

The main intent for the 9/10ths rule is to say that at the Rune level your character's time not adventuring is devoted to cultic duties. By the rules, someone with vast financial resources could simply pay cash value for a priesthood, which is certainly an option, albeit sinecures are also generally obvious to everyone. 

You can also avoid the problem of having to pay 140% of your income by making sure you don't have any, The Producers-style.

Time is more of an issue.

[Baron Wulfraed]

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

My, my. You have a citation for that, it is one hell of a statement. Assuming correct, I like it a lot! Smacks of our world but it is so good I think I can for

Haven't seen it for RQ:RiG... But "buying in" IS what I did in RQ2... (at a time when they had both rune lord and rune priest listed for Humakt)

Cults of Prax page 36 emphasis mine

Quote

Non-Rune Lords wishing to be Priests must have the requisite POW, must have spent two years or more as an Initiate of the cult, and must convince the Examining Council. Unlike the examiners for the position of Rune Lord, Rune Priest Examiners will take contributions to the cult treasury into account as described in the rules.

RQ2 (well, Classic Edition PDF) page 63 emphasis mine

Quote

Add the POW and CHA of the character. Then add 1 point for every 100 L the character donates to the temple as an “offering.” Divide the result by 3 (i.e., average POW, CHA, and offering). Then multiply the result by 5 and have the player try to roll that number or less on D100.

I had one character that still took two tries with a year of game time between them -- taking the common 96-100 failure usage (not explicit in the above quote). That's after computing how much would need to be donated to get the 100% (IE: average POW, CHA, donation => 20)

Ah... Page 276 of RQ:RiG has the same clause for priests (but no longer has simple priest for Humakt -- only the more difficult to attain Rune Lord-Priest.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

I would think the restriction really begins at initiate level: 

RQG p.274 "Initiation into a cult is a serious step, for individuals thereby pledge themselves to the focus of a single divine entity.  Unlike lay members, who have association with other cults, initiates may partake only of rituals in their own cult and its associated and friendly cults."

So  are Orlanth and Elmal friendly?  That's a big N If Elmal is Yelmalio, as people have discussed, [https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/13636-some-questions-about-the-lismelder-and-yelmalioelmal/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-212855 But Elmal isn't even mentioned as a cult in the canon printed material.  Nor in RQG.   We all await the new Gods book.

 

So Your Glorantha Has Already Varied when these players initiated with the second god - that's your right -  but there will be no 'correct' answer except the answer you want.

Interestingly enough I do not find an explicit rule in RQG saying that an adventurer can't be a priest of two cults.  If i am wrong I would appreciate a page and paragraph reference, because it's begun to bother me.  But I do see the 90%-of-time rule as an obstacle.  I can see squeezing in an Orlanth-Lhankhor Mhy priest if the local LM shrine is in the Orlanth temple, it's an associated cult after all, there may be only one priest in a small temple, and in a larger temple everyone may appreciate the ability to switch-hit and teach LM spells, so i can see that the cult business would overlap.  But otherwise I can't see owing 180% of time and there is something unsatisfying about a second cult taking 9% (90% of the adventurer's remaining 10% after giving 90% to the primary cult.)   Maybe that's just me.  It would make more sense to me to say the adventurer's status in a second cult won't go higher than initiate or maybe god-talker.

As I already wrote, Your Glorantha Has Already Varied.

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Squaredeal Sten
pasting the link

[svensson]

Assuming we're talking about the RQG rules, if I were referee at the table I would say that that they can be a Priest of one deity and a God-Talker of another. On pg. 278 the RQG main rules it says, 'God-talkers may be initiates of their cults, or may even be Rune Priests or Rune Lords of closely associated god'. So that looks like it covers it.

I visualize it as being a full, hierarchical working priest of one god and considered a non-hierarchical 'itinerant preacher' of another. They're capable of doing most, but not all, the sacred duties of their secondary cult, but do not have a parish or following and cannot be considered for the High Priest position for that secondary deity.

Also, it should be noted that 'closely associated' means just that... they must be listed in each other's 'Associated Gods' list. In the OP's campaign, it would be perfectly fine to be a Rune Priest and God-talker of Orlanth and Elmal [in whichever order], but not Orlanth and Humakt, even though Humakt is a member of Orlanth's pantheon. And Orlanth and Yelmalio is right out!

Obviously, you're gonna have outliers and exceptions. There are Black Fang and Lanbril cult members who are Yelmalio templars in good standing [until discovered]. Most often these will be specifically mentioned or a result of one cult have the Illusion or Disorder runes [as in my Yelmalio example].

Edited May 28, 2021 by svensson

[Arthur Severance]

Thanks, everyone!  You've given me some great ideas to work this out with.  I think I will make them RP it out a bit before the respective cults decide whether to allow it or not.  Even then, it would be becoming a god-talker of the second cult and taking 1/2 of the remaining income as tithe.  I appreciate the help!

Edited May 28, 2021 by Arthur Severance

[Nick Brooke]

The cult of Elmal (what’s left of it) is certainly associated with Orlanth. But there’s not many worshippers in Sartar any more: the vast majority sodded off to Monrogh’s Sun Dome Temple fifty or more years ago, converting en masse to the newly-revealed (to them) cult of Yelmalio, which is definitively not.

I see no problem with the situation you’re proposing. And YGWV anyway if I did.

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

they must be listed in each other's 'Associated Gods' list

this would be a deity you can get a spell from, yeah?

[soltakss]

11 hours ago, Arthur Severance said:

Do the rules permit this? 

The RQ2 rules had the concept of Associate Priest, which was like a lesser version of a priest, RQ3 had Acolyte which performed a similar function. RQG Has God-Talker, which is essentially the same, but expanded a little.

11 hours ago, Arthur Severance said:

How should I handle the tithing?  Technically they are already giving 9/10 of their income to their respective cults and 1/10 to Elmal, though in practice I have not made them pay the tithe to the cult of Elmal yet.  (They did the local cult a huge favor in game.)  They cannot really pay 18/10ths of their income to two cults.  Should I just have them pay 9/10 and rule it goes to the two cults somehow?  Or maybe that it is not even possible, since their duties to their main cult requires so much of their time?

As a GM, I say they pay 90% tithing, split between the cults, but I am notoriously lenient.

11 hours ago, Arthur Severance said:

I'd like to say yes to the request. 

I generally say Yes to any request, unless there is a really good reason to say No.

 

[Darius West]

17 hours ago, Arthur Severance said:

However, they would like to become full priests of both gods.  One already meets the requirements, the other is very close.  Do the rules permit this?  How should I handle the tithing?  Technically they are already giving 9/10 of their income to their respective cults and 1/10 to Elmal, though in practice I have not made them pay the tithe to the cult of Elmal yet.  (They did the local cult a huge favor in game.)  They cannot really pay 18/10ths of their income to two cults.  Should I just have them pay 9/10 and rule it goes to the two cults somehow?  Or maybe that it is not even possible, since their duties to their main cult requires so much of their time?

On consideration, you can game the system.

The fact that they need to pay 90% of their income to their main cult, and 10% to Elmal would seem to add up to 100%.  This need not be the case.  Say for convenience you earn the paltry sum of 100L per year.  Yes, you need to pay 90L to your main cult, but that leaves you with 10L, of which only 1L needs to be paid to Elmal, as the 90L is not really income but primary tithe.  Thus leaving the character with a 9% income.

Of course if they character happens to run their own shrine, then they tithe 90% of their income to their own strongbox and the problem is solved.

The issue of tithes is (for the record) a great way of dragging down illuminates, so consider it GMs.  Death and Taxes.

This doesn't quite get to the issue of the role of Godi.  Do they serve as priests/initiates of multiple deities in a pantheon somehow?  Probably not.

As to spirits of reprisal, well, without doubt they will double down on what is expected of the character, but cults in the same pantheon will likely have similar ideas of what constitutes wrongdoing, perhaps with different emphasis/weighting, but the values will be pretty alike.

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Darius West

[French Desperate WindChild]

for me it depends on differents answers:

- why be a priest ? If it is only to have more "power", I say no. If it is to a sacred mission accepted by both temples/gods(divination) yes, they can be "temporary priests" until the mission is successful.

- who will be the worshippers ? if there is no worshipper (the worshippers can be followers or a part of their community supporting them), they cannot be priests. but they can be god talker

- What will they do as priest ?  if they do the sacred mission , yes. If they follow their ways and do what they want,... they will lose the status, probably meet spirit of reprisal, etc..

 

 

[Arcadiagt5]

 

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

RQG p.274 "Initiation into a cult is a serious step, for individuals thereby pledge themselves to the focus of a single divine entity.  Unlike lay members, who have association with other cults, initiates may partake only of rituals in their own cult and its associated and friendly cults."

Barring special cases* this is why I only allow initiation into associated cults.

* Mostly being invited to initiate directly by the goddess such as the revival of Orgorvale Summer as an Orlanthi subcult or the Lost Daughter from the JC title The Throat of Winter. It’s the only way I'd allow Orlanth/Humakt dual initiates.

I strongly doubt I’d ever allow dual rune levels. 

[Ali the Helering]

It would take a lot to convince me, and it would have to be clear that they are frequently worshipped together - Asrelia and Ty Kora Tek as a case in point.

[Nick Brooke]

Darius is going to get himself Sunspeared. Split 90% of your income between your two cults: nine parts to your main cult (81%) and one to Elmal (9%). If you short-change either temple, you're out. If you play silly buggers to reduce your titheable income, you'll be taking a hit to your Devotion, your priest will increasingly distrust you, and you'll eventually be out (and drawing the short straw for really shitty cult duties in the mean time). Manipulatively abusing temples and cults is a foolish way to carry on. Still, YGWV and all that.

[svensson]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

this would be a deity you can get a spell from, yeah?

That's how I read it, yes.

But the relationship still has to be pretty close. For example, Orlanth and Babeester Gor are 'related' through his marriage to Ernalda, but it's not close enough to be a Rune Priest of one and a God Talker of another.

Ideally, the two ought to share a Rune, but a close relationship within a pantheon is good enough.

[svensson]

17 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Darius is going to get himself Sunspeared. Split 90% of your income between your two cults: nine parts to your main cult (81%) and one to Elmal (9%). If you short-change either temple, you're out. If you play silly buggers to reduce your titheable income, you'll be taking a hit to your Devotion, your priest will increasingly distrust you, and you'll eventually be out (and drawing the short straw for really shitty cult duties in the mean time). Manipulatively abusing temples and cults is a foolish way to carry on. Still, YGWV and all that.

ABSOLUTELY.

Dice not with the favor of the gods, young initiate! You Have Been Warned.

 

[svensson]

32 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

It would take a lot to convince me, and it would have to be clear that they are frequently worshipped together - Asrelia and Ty Kora Tek as a case in point.

This is why I suggest that the two cults in question must be specifically listed as 'Associated'.

For one thing, this would spread the power and influence of the lesser gods of a pantheon [Elmal within the Storm Gods, for example] in a larger radius. After all, the more benefit a given god provides their worshipers the more worshipers they will gather, right?

 

[Baron Wulfraed]

12 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I would think the restriction really begins at initiate level: 

RQG p.274 "Initiation into a cult is a serious step, for individuals thereby pledge themselves to the focus of a single divine entity.  Unlike lay members, who have association with other cults, initiates may partake only of rituals in their own cult and its associated and friendly cults."

May have a slight conflict with page 275

Quote

Membership in Multiple Cults
It is possible for an adventurer to be an initiate of more than one cult. They must pass the appropriate tests, and this always requires that the cults be compatible. They must also tithe to each temple, and perform properly and completely all duties and responsibilities to each temple.
Adventurers must maintain a separate pool of Rune points for each cult they are a member of, and the number of Rune points they may possess with that cult is equal to their CHA.

Or maybe not... "compatible" <> "associated and friendly"? But it is definite that being an initiate in multiple is viable.