Can a character be a priest of two Rune Cults?

[Scotty]

Look at Sora Goodseller in the GM Screen pack, page 28. She's a Priestess of Issaries, and Initiate of Yelmalio.

So how did this happen? Issaries and Yelmalio aren't associated cults. Issaries is Friendly to Yemalio and Yelmalio is Neutral to Issaries.

Friendly Cults (F)

Even without formal arrangements these groups find each other supportive and agreeable. Meetings are likely to be pleasant.

Neutral Cults (N)

Such cults act according to present circumstance. Trouble may occur, but the spark must be deliberate, not caused by minor squabbles.

Looks good to me so far. Neither steps on each others toes in any way. No weird geases saying never trust a merchant, etc. 

So they are compatible for Membership in Multiple Cults, page 275.

Can she become a Yelmalio God Talker now - No!

Neither are associate cults of each other, page 278, God Talkers, may even be Rune Priests or Rune Lords of a closely associated god.

So let's imagine she's an initiate of Chalana Arroy instead.

They are both Lightbringers and so closely associated (and associated cults). As long as she follows the restrictions on both cults, she's fine and can become a god talker of Chalana Arroy and be a priestess of Issaries. But she spents 9/10 her time being an Issaries priestess and 1/10 as a Chalana Arroy God Talker.

As for tithing - page 278, God-talkers must spend 1/10 of their time at the temple or on temple business. They must give 50% of their income to the temple. A God-talker who is also a Rune Priest of another cult must give 9/10 of their income to their primary cult, and then 1/2 of whatever is left to their secondary cult.

Can she become a priestess of Chalana Arroy - No. Priests must spend 9/10 of their time at the temple, or on temple business. She's already spending 9/10 of her time as an issaries priestess. Being a priest is a full time job.

Overall the Priest / God talker combo will depend on the individual cults involved, there is no one size fits all answer here. Ultimately using 100% of the adventurers time and tithing 95% of their resources, may or may not cause obstacles (this may not be a problem for example with Sora as Issaries Priests aren't supported by their temple).

For your group

• Orlanth / Elmal looks like a good combo, Elmal is an associate cult with Orlanth, and replaces the Yelmalio geas Never speak to or help Orlanth worshipers in any way with a re-roll.
• Lhankor Mhy / Elmal is possible as Lhankor Mhy priest / Elmal initiate. Lhankor Mhy and Elmal aren't associates, so they can't become a God Talker.
• Yinkin / Orlanth is a fantastic combo as Yinkin is Orlanth's half brother (and is an associate cult), and it even says on page 310, Yinkin initiates can join the Orlanth cult merely by sacrificing 1 point of POW to Orlanth. So you don't even need to pass an examiners test!

On 5/27/2021 at 9:01 PM, Arthur Severance said:

I'd like to say yes to the request. 

Those are how the rules work, but as usual If you want to rule that it's different in your games, go for it. It's all covered by MGF (page 6).

---

I've added this to the Rune Priest section of the Rune Cults Q&A page, it's a great question.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Scotty

[svensson]

4 minutes ago, Scotty said:

For your group

 

• Orlanth / Elmal looks like a good combo, Elmal is an associate cult with Orlanth, and replaces the Yelmalio geas Never speak to or help Orlanth worshipers in any way with a re-roll.
• Lhankor Mhy / Elmal is possible as Lhankor Mhy priest / Elmal initiate. Lhankor Mhy and Elmal aren't associates, so they can't become a God Talker.
• Yinkin / Orlanth is a fantastic combo as Yinkin is Orlanth's half brother (and is an associate cult), and it even says on page 310, Yinkin initiates can join the Orlanth cult merely by sacrificing 1 point of POW to Orlanth. So you don't even need to pass an examiners test!

Those are how the rules work, but as usual If you want to rule that it's different in your games, go for it. It's all covered by MGF (page 6).

My interpretation of 'closely associated' is a bit narrower than Scotty's, but he's absolutely right when he quotes Maximum Game Fun. Rules and milieux never survive survive contact with player characters as written. Do what makes Your Glorantha fun for your group.

[Graeme P]

In Pavis (page 70 of the Moon Design combined box sets), Broosta is a Daughter of Pavis and an associate of Lhankor Mhy.  So that fits the outcome the above posts seem to have arrived at as a conclusion i.e. one rune level position can be held with the rank in a secondary cult being at a level just below that.

However Ginkizzie is descrbed as a priest of both Flintnail (where he would be high priest I suspect) and of Pavis.

The latter could be rationalised as being someone who is 700+ years old and able to do special things.

Or you could take a view that city gods are relatively minor and so don't necesssarily use up so much of an individual's time and resources to prevent them from rising up the ranks in a larger cult.

Either way, it is about the story you are telling in your game.  If there is to be a moment of tension between the two roles where each cult is wanting the player to choose different sides then it can make for a key point in the story.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

We interpret the restrictions on Rune Priest as "your PC is pretty much retired".  Most of our PCs strive to be God Talkers instead   Being a Priest of two cults, even if legal, is "you are retired".  (Or we would play it that way)

Edited May 29, 2021 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Graeme P said:

However Ginkizzie is descrbed as a priest of both Flintnail (where he would be high priest I suspect) and of Pavis.

Pavis and Flintnail appear to be on the sorcerous side of normal cults, and it isn't quite clear whether both are just different expressions of a common cult worshiping more than one entity.

 

is a 

1 hour ago, Graeme P said:

The latter could be rationalised as being someone who is 700+ years old and able to do special things.

Ginkizzie also is the offspring of Flintnail and an actual daughter of Pavis. Sometimes who you are trumps hierarchy.

 

1 hour ago, Graeme P said:

Or you could take a view that city gods are relatively minor and so don't necesssarily use up so much of an individual's time and resources to prevent them from rising up the ranks in a larger cult.

The Pavis priesthood also combines a political office with spiritual/magical obligations, not unlike the Orlanth Rex cult. Oddi the Keen is a Storm Khan as well as the high priest of Orlanth Rex, and Illumination has nothing to do with that.

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Pavis priesthood also combines a political office with spiritual/magical obligations, not unlike the Orlanth Rex cult. Oddi the Keen is a Storm Khan as well as the high priest of Orlanth Rex, and Illumination has nothing to do with that.

One very Gloranthan thing that I like about Oddi is that he's completely unenthusiastic about his Orlanth cult duties, and most certainly doesn't have any Devotion passion, but since he goes through the motions out of a sense of duty and demonstrates all the right virtues, this is perfectly fine as far as Orlanth is concerned. Only people like Ketil register concern.

[Scotty]

9 hours ago, Graeme P said:

In Pavis (page 70 of the Moon Design combined box sets), Broosta is a Daughter of Pavis and an associate of Lhankor Mhy.  So that fits the outcome the above posts seem to have arrived at as a conclusion i.e. one rune level position can be held with the rank in a secondary cult being at a level just below that.

However Ginkizzie is descrbed as a priest of both Flintnail (where he would be high priest I suspect) and of Pavis.

The latter could be rationalised as being someone who is 700+ years old and able to do special things.

Without going into details I don't have. I'd suggest that Pavis is a subcult of Flintnail and vice-versa.

9 hours ago, Graeme P said:

Or you could take a view that city gods are relatively minor and so don't necesssarily use up so much of an individual's time and resources to prevent them from rising up the ranks in a larger cult.

And that's certainly a valid suggestion.

9 hours ago, Graeme P said:

Either way, it is about the story you are telling in your game.  If there is to be a moment of tension between the two roles where each cult is wanting the player to choose different sides then it can make for a key point in the story.

Exactly.

[dumuzid]

This is more a Glorantha than Runequest answer, but the kings of Jonatela are supposed to be priests of a whole bundle of cults, with shrines and temples there in the palace.  Would seem to mostly depend on CHA limits, overcoming them, and maneuvering the relationships of the different cults and temples a character participates in.

[Joerg]

23 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

This is more a Glorantha than Runequest answer, but the kings of Jonatela are supposed to be priests of a whole bundle of cults, with shrines and temples there in the palace.  Would seem to mostly depend on CHA limits, overcoming them, and maneuvering the relationships of the different cults and temples a character participates in.

Priest of those cults, or priest for those cults? There is a type of Yelmic priesthood officiating for all the cults with a representation on the Gods Wall, alongside some holy person from that cult. The Jonating king's role may be similar to that.

[PhilHibbs]

Another special case would be where for example a rune priest of Issaries became Tribal King and therefore high priest of Orlanth Rex. Not something that most players are going to be doing though...

[davecake]

There is the divine office, and the normal cult expectations of what is given to, and expected of, the office and can be supported. They are of course linked and hard to separate, and many generalisations fail as regard to particular cults, and can change in particular circumstances. Just keep in mind the two offices as separate, one a magical relationship with the god, and one a mundane question of support and responsibilities, even though at many times they are confused or entwined or overlap, and it will all be relatively easy to work out. 

In general, the difference between a priest and a god-talker is a matter of the expectations of the cult only. To the god, they are essentially the same. But a priest is associated with a large temple with the resources to support them full time, and usually expects them to serve the cult full time (though with generous 10% leave provisions) in return. A god-talker is a priest associated with a temple that does not have the resources to support them, often because it is a small shrine, or sometimes because the have more people who qualify to priests than they can support. An associate priest is simply someone who qualifies to be a priest of a closely associated cult, to the extent the cults share many ritual responsibilities and don’t keep the two cults fully separate in terms of tracking responsibilities of both time and finances. It’s not practical to be a full priest in two cults, but in the same way it is not practical to have two full time jobs. But if you are qualified for both, you could have two part time jobs, or be seconded by your main employer to fill in as needed for an associated one - but you still need to worry about conflict of interest.   If the two cults aren’t clearly friendly or associated (including cases where it seems they should be mythically, but one is new), there will be lots of tensions and potential conflicts that the character will have to manage, which again is as much story as you want it to be. 

And there will be lots of special cases, because not all cults work on that scheme all the time. Issaries has two separate schemes for two different types of priest. For one, they keep most of their income, but devote time to the cult, mostly to keep the sacred markets in which their businesses operate, making them profit) maintained and thriving. For the other, they retain control over their time, but support the cult with 50% of their income. For both, Issaries regards trading and other commercial activities as something the cult encourages, not controls. Orlanth Rex only exists as a subcult, and makes demands of its members beyond that of their position separate to that required of their position (as than, or chief, or king), but a chief or thane leads some ceremonies like a priest. Barntar has only god-talkers, and makes few demands on the time of those. A Foundchild great hunter has no explicit demands on their time or income as a percentage, but obligations on them (including supplying a prey animal per week, attending the Great Hunt) that are mostly best satisfied by spending their time hunting. And so on. Sometime they will explicitly conflict with other responsibilities, sometimes not. 
 

[davecake]

The 90% income reflects mostly that the money earned by the priest is money earned while they are supposed to be working full time for the temple, and so is the temples - but it doesn’t mean the priest lives in poverty, because it can be used for the support of the priest. I sounds like an accounting nightmare, but only to modern players who treat it like a tax return, but is as simple as you want it to be - mostly, the priests are those who decide what that 90% (and any other temple income) is used for, and of course it can be used to support the priests in many ways. Just generally not inherited or otherwise treated as the priests personal property if they aren’t using it, and of course priests that are obviously using it for personal luxury will have to answer to the cult. And if you want it to be, it can be an issue with the temple giving it to others. Just assume that all the ways this arrangement can go wrong (corruption, cronyism, nepotism, politicization, factionalism, etc) have mechanisms in place to try to prevent them (such as spirits of reprisal, the Ban spell, Divination, etc), and those mechanisms can fail if you want it to be a part of your story, or it can all work fine and your characters can simply assume as a priest/Lord that money is now simple because they simply have most of what they want. You can handle it in your game as a simple thing if you want it to be, or a complex thing if you want it to be. Just don’t let players ignore it or treat it as a purely accounting obligation. 
 

Which means that at the same time the players start having to hand over that 90% tithe to the temple, they also can take steps into becoming the leaders who determine what the temple does with it, if that is the direction you want your game to go in.  For example, in one of my games the PCs have just completed the Cradle scenario, and now have an absurd amount of wealth, but several are rune lords or priests of Orlanth who must give 90% of it to the temple. Does that mean the money just disappears from the game? No, it means they have given it to a temple, and their high priest invites the local lords and priests, including the PCs, to help decide what to do with. If they say “Let’s spend it a lake of Lunar wine we can swim about in” or “I want a gold dressing gown” that will get vetoed, but if they say “let’s buy better arms and armour for our rebel war band” or “the temple should buy somewhere for us to hide out in now we are wanted by the empire” or even “the temple should buy some truestone from the Storm Bulls at the Block so we can have a way to back up heroquesting types like us with good magic when on difficult missions”, then those ideas will get listened to (though other rune priests and lords may have alternative ideas). Another PC is a Sword of Humakt. He does not want to give it to the Pavis temple - and as a Sword himself, essentially wielding full cult authority, the god isn’t going to bother him about it as long as he uses it for appropriate purposes (like probably outfitting a small mercenary unit, or building a temple, but Humakt probably wouldn’t be upset if he spent it all on iron plate armour to wear). But he might need to cope with challenges to duels, maybe threats of Ban spells, and challenges to his reputation, if he doesn’t hand it over to the Pavis temple, as temple politics for the Humakt cult is often not subtle. Another PC is a Lhankor Mhy Sage probably is obliged to hand it over to the temple, and has little control over what they do with it - but will rise greatly in prestige within the temple, and may have some ability to control which temple or faction within the temple has most access to it, so is likely to be drawn into (notoriously byzantine) temple politics. 
 

Make it a simple way of just removing wealth as both a reward, and a need, from your PCs and refocusing them on religion and their relationship with the temple if you want. Or take it as an opportunity to draw your PCs into the role of becoming the people who are becoming important members of society, and the leaders of the  organisations that run the world. Either is better than just treating it like doing your taxes! 

[Shiningbrow]

On 6/1/2021 at 2:53 PM, davecake said:

Just assume that all the ways this arrangement can go wrong (corruption, cronyism, nepotism, politicization, factionalism, etc)

Ummm.... How are those things going "wrong"?

They sound like the sort of things that show tithes are going right 😋

Priests do whatever they want with the money, and as long as the spiritual responsibilities are being looked after, not many will care.

Personally, I don't see the (mundane) time or tithe as something the god cares about. They care about the spiritual connections. Hence why the suggestion of buying your priesthood works.

 

Also, unless magic is employed (and it's unlikely to be unless there's an apparent long-standing question, *no-one* else is going to know your income! And no-one is going to know if you lied by saying "I already gave at the temple in the other side of the Pass". I don't think too many priests would bother wasting a Divination on such things, even if it would be successful.

However... It would affect whether the initiate gets themselves training or magic from that temple/shrine.

[davecake]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Ummm.... How are those things going "wrong"?

If the money is given to sustain the temple, and the temple is not being sustained, then it’s gone wrong. 
if the money is not being given for any specific purpose, then it being collected in the first place would seem to be a problem. 

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

If the money is given to sustain the temple, and the temple is not being sustained, then it’s gone wrong. 
if the money is not being given for any specific purpose, then it being collected in the first place would seem to be a problem. 

Maintaining the temple by paying your brother/sister/spouse's second cousin twice removed in-law would be tolerated - still nepotism though. I imagine that's what constantly happens though... especially in Nochet.

 

It's only going wrong when it goes too far. And, as I wrote in my piece above, "and as long as the spiritual responsibilities are being looked after, not many will care. " (much... except for those who want to advance in the temple, but can't due to the corruption)

[PhilHibbs]

This idea that corruption is bad seems like a modern invention to me. In most human societies it's just been the way if the world. Sure, I bet there have been cases in antiquity where egregious corruption was called out and punished, but I bet most of those were themselves driven by ambition and personal gain!

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

This idea that corruption is bad seems like a modern invention to me. In most human societies it's just been the way if the world. Sure, I bet there have been cases in antiquity where egregious corruption was called out and punished, but I bet most of those were themselves driven by ambition and personal gain!

It’s like with corruption drives in China today - it’s not that whoever got punished wasn’t corrupt, I’m sure they were, but it was never the reason. Similarly, Roman corruption trials were only about punishing someone particular, or sometimes punishing extraordinarily excessive or damaging corruption by a governor when it rose to be a national problem. That there would be corruption was an absolute given - it’s baked into the system.

Mark Galeotti has argued that it’s by design that it’s impossible to do anything in Russia without breaking corruption laws - that way, you can always find a reason when you want to punish someone, even though the vast majority goes unpunished.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[davecake]

On 6/6/2021 at 11:11 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Ummm.... How are those things going "wrong"?

All depends what you mean by wrong, really. Not fulfilling its ostensible purpose seems a fair reading, by that doesn't imply it is unexpected, or some sort of calamity. 

Edited June 8, 2021 by davecake

[Ali the Helering]

On 6/6/2021 at 2:48 PM, PhilHibbs said:

This idea that corruption is bad seems like a modern invention to me. In most human societies it's just been the way if the world. Sure, I bet there have been cases in antiquity where egregious corruption was called out and punished, but I bet most of those were themselves driven by ambition and personal gain!

Corruption was often a capital charge in the states of Greece, because it was understood as undermining the state itself.

[Groovetronic]

I wouldnt say so, because of the time requirements. It sounds like what's possible is for initiates of Elmal to become Priests of Elmal, with the 90% time requirement, and become associate priests of Orlanth, under the standard rules. Its a little unusual but Orlanth and Elmal are both in the Storm Tribe and at least in my games allied cults.

As for Lhankor Mhy, being a full priest requires a full time commitment - those PCs are going to have to make a choice.

[Groovetronic]

In regards to the 90% tithe requirement, also remember that the temple sees to a full priests needs. Need a new suit of bronze plate commissioned, and a new horse? The temple has you covered. Gifts to impress that local chief? Done. Jewelry and clothing as befits your station? Covered. But any gifts you receive go to the cult and your community. You get a 500L reward for that daring rescue? 450L goes into temple fund and you get to keep 50L for expenses.

Also, remember, as a Priest, you have real power. Need an initiate bodyguard? Done. Need bodies for that worship ceremony you want to enact? As long as the high priest agrees, you got em. Need access to the clan's magic resources? Make a reasonable request and you'll probably get it.

The downside? You have to play politics. This is why some Priests request demotion and go take care of a small shrine as an Acolyte. With power comes responsibilities.