Things are going to have to change, in order to stay the same...

[MOB]

[I posted this over on the RuneQuest Facebook group; posting here too, for ease of future retrieval]  

 

[Over on the RuneQuest Facebook group] Jeff recently talked about the challenges Yelmalio worshippers in Sartar face maintaining their distinct society among the dominant Orlanthi cultures of Dragon Pass.

 

Of course, it was no picnic for the Sun Domers stuck out in the Mad Max II hellscape of Prax either. When Pavis fell in 1200 ST and civilisation as-they-knew-it thus ended on the River of Cradles, their struggle to survive and maintain their identity hinged on convincing the hostile Praxian tribes surrounding them that they, the People of the Sun, deserved to be seen as better than mere Oasis Folk, that the nomads regarded as little more than chattels.

 

How did they accomplish this? Palishon was Light Captain, and then later Count when the 'Solitude of Testing' began. He solemnly told his people, "Things are going to have to change, in order to stay the same." Like their kin back in Sartar, rigorous military training provided a line of defense. But giving up their cherished horses was a key to the Sun Domer's survival. Adapting to their fate on foot at least removed the automatic and unthinking antipathy of all the Waha tribes*.

 

Palishon also reestablished closer bonds with the Animal Nomads, which had grown distant in the years of peace and plenty. This came about after he was captured by the Impala Nation (or, it is said, allowed himself to be taken prisoner). The khans were about to inflict terrible punishments on him when Palishon proved to them that their great spirit Sky Daughter and Yelmalio were in fact one and the same**.

 

As it happens, their co-religionists in the nomad tribes actually outnumbered the sedentary Sun Domers 2:1. The pacts made between them by Palishon have helped maintain the status quo to this day; the great Sun Dome is a holy place to Praxian and Sun Domer alike.

 

Count Palishon certainly deserves his epithet "the Clever" in the recitation of the Light List, even if his precise deeds are no longer fully remembered.

 

*The Sun Domers also broke off the long-standing alliance with the Pure Horse Tribe, which doubtless contributed their defeat and banishment from Prax at the Battle of Alavan Argay in 1250. Whether this was adroit statecraft or perfidious betrayal depends on your point of view. But it is said the Sun Domers' geas "Never let a horse suffer needlessly" originates from this time.

 

**I'm thinking a kind of 'Man Who Would Be King" situation here...

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by MOB

[simonh]

5 hours ago, MOB said:

Palishon proved to them that their great spirit Sky Daughter and Yelmalio were in fact one and the same**.

 

Is this where Yellorna comes from?

[Ali the Helering]

20 minutes ago, simonh said:

Is this where Yellorna comes from?

Is that where Yelmalio comes from?

[Qizilbashwoman]

30 minutes ago, simonh said:

Is this where Yellorna comes from?

noooooo

Yelorna is an independent deity like the one now called Yelmalio (he gets new names all the time); he's her brother. They are solar deities from Genert's Garden. That's why they aren't associated with the rest of the Solar Pantheon in Genertela (and often are at odds with the Solar Empire).

She actually has Praxian riders of her own, because her worshippers ride unicorns, which are licit to Waha (unicorns aren't horses just like zebras aren't).

 

[simonh]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

noooooo

Yelorna is an independent deity like the one now called Yelmalio (he gets new names all the time); he's her brother. They are solar deities from Genert's Garden. That's why they aren't associated with the rest of the Solar Pantheon in Genertela (and often are at odds with the Solar Empire).

She actually has Praxian riders of her own, because her worshippers ride unicorns, which are licit to Waha (unicorns aren't horses just like zebras aren't).

 

So there's a Yelorna cult and a Sky Daughter cult in Prax, both native, and Sky Daughter is identified with Yelmalio by Palishon, while Yelorna is his sister?

Edited June 1, 2021 by simonh

[Joerg]

21 minutes ago, simonh said:

So there's a Yelorna cult and a Sky Daughter cult in Prax, both native, and Sky Daughter is identified with Yelmalio by Palishon, while Yelorna is his sister?

I am not sure whether the Yelorna cult is native to Prax or whether she entered from the Theyalan sphere. There are quite a few star cults native to Prax, though.

[simonh]

What I was expecting was that Peloshon proved Sky Daughter is Yelmalio's sister, hence Yelorna. That makes a degree more sense to me.

I just didn't want to quibble about identified with vs identified as the sister of.

I get the impression, and I might be wrong, that the cult of Yelorna writeup in RQ2 is somewhat deprecated. That it is going to become a much more native Praxian themed Sky Daughter spirit cult, with a footnote that Sky Daughter is mythically identified as Yelmalio's sister, Yelorna.

Edited June 1, 2021 by simonh

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, simonh said:

So there's a Yelorna cult and a Sky Daughter cult in Prax, both native, and Sky Daughter is identified with Yelmalio by Palishon, while Yelorna is his sister?

I confess I don't know where the Praxians originated; Genert's people are the Oasis Folk, and His pantheon included Yamsur, he-who-is-now-called-Yelmalio, and Yelorna. Yamsur died in the war with Chaos, Genert was slain, and the Oasis Folk are trapped in a kind of melancholy? Lethargy?

The Praxians, who moved in to the lands the Garden once covered, brought and remade their own stories. Yelorna managed to fit in, riding horses that are not recognisably such, but Yelmalions, who prized horses-qua-horses, didn't.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Yelmalio is identified with the wider "Cold Sun" archetype (and so is more or less an analogue to Elmal, Antirius and Kargzant). He's the light that remains when the heat is gone, ie. the sun in winter, the memory of the light that stayed during the Darkness, and perhaps more specifically the Yellow Planet/Lightfore of course (a star/planet that is perhaps the closest we get to something resembling the RW moon in Glorantha, ie. a mobile, relatively bright object in the night sky which does not emit any heat). 

I have never quite seen any good examples of how Yelorna fits into that. I'm tempted to simply see her as yet another example of the Cold Sun / Lightfore archetype, however, this does raise some questions as to why she appears to appear ALONG other Cold Sun deities as opposed to supplant or be supplanted by them (ie. I don't think we tend to see a lot of gods whose portfolio is basically the exact same thing in stable coexistance within the same cultures a lot, but I might be wrong). Perhaps there is a bit of Hipprogriff/Gamara/Redalda to her. Perhaps Yelorna and Yelmalio, where they appear together, split the Cold Sun role in respective spheres (possibly a bit like how some of the Sartarite/Heortling Elmal's sphere is separated into the minor deity Anatyr). I don't know. 

Further discussion is probably better taken to the Glorantha forum, as it is bound to get esoteric, and I know the Mods dislike the neckbeards convoluting perfectly straightforward texts with confusing and potentially alienating deeplore, lol.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Sir_Godspeed

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I have never quite seen any good examples of how Yelorna fits into that.

Yelorna is the Starbringer.  She's the one Pole Star enables to bring the fight of the Heavens down to the earth with her meteor bow even while Yelmalio fights upon the earth.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Yelorna is the Starbringer.  She's the one Pole Star enables to bring the fight of the Heavens down to the earth with her meteor bow even while Yelmalio fights upon the earth.

That would make her one of the eight planetary sons of Yelm in the Copper Tablets:

Tablet 7:
Zator goes into the Pit and is never seen again. The first myriad of stars comes out.

That's the celestial son with the Buserian rune, but it is possible that that rune was picked up afterwards.

 

 

[Darius West]

18 hours ago, MOB said:

Adapting to their fate on foot at least removed the automatic and unthinking antipathy of all the Waha tribes*.

The Pol-Joni sneer at such cowardice and Kuschile's spirit is deeply ashamed.  Those who would give up the freedom the horse provides for a little bit of security deserve none of it and will lose it all.  Sheng knew what to do.  Life in Prax is harsh; never let a nomad suffer needlessly.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Darius West

[soltakss]

The Yelmalians of Sun County see Yelorna as merely a subcult of Yelmalio.

The Amazon Riders see her as a Goddess in her own right, with Yelmalio as a Subcult.

Sure, in the RQ2/3 cult writeups they are listed as associate cults but really that isn't how it looks.

In my Glorantha, Yelorna was worshipped as a Praxian Goddess even before the Sun Domers founded Sun County. They recognised Yelorna as a minor goddess of their pantheon and had shrines to her in their Yelmalio Temples. In the same way, the Yelornans recognised the Yelmalio the Rider worshippers among the Praxian Tribes as related to Yelorna, way before the Sun Domers came. The Sun Domers merely clarified the relationship.

[metcalph]

I've seen Yelorna as a goddess of the Celestial Hunt mainly coz of her rune spells (Shooting Star and Silver Track).  I've heard suggestions that she comes from Ourania's Star (one of the Big Three in the Celestial City) on the grounds of her "purity".  SAhe could hail from the Evening Star as her runes are Sky and Death (but she's not red, is she?).  If she were to be one of the planets (like Yelmalio comes from Lightfore) then her home would be Moskalf (White and Earth associations)

But it's possible that's her cult is all of these, being compatible myths spread throughout the stars and planets.

[Qizilbashwoman]

I thought she was part of the Celestial Hunter and a star

[Sir_Godspeed]

18 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I thought she was part of the Celestial Hunter and a star

Yeah, that's what I've seen too. 

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, I just expect there to be some, uh, I don't know - pattern, symmetry, or whatever, when deities are closely linked and with very similar roles. Being a constellation is all fine and well, but I *want* there to be something more that ties her and Lightfore together if they're to appear together so often. I realize that this is mostly on me, though.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Sir_Godspeed

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

but I *want* there to be something more that ties her and Lightfore together if they're to appear together so often

They are the remaining gods of Light below the heavens by night.  That alone I think is more than enough to tie them together.

[Nick Brooke]

If the planet Lightfore is both a Unicorn and its Princess rider, then Yelmalio is a Unicorn, colloquially speaking.

[metcalph]

31 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

If the planet Lightfore is both a Unicorn and its Princess rider, then Yelmalio is a Unicorn, colloquially speaking.

Getting Sailor Moon vibes...

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

If the planet Lightfore is both a Unicorn and its Princess rider, then Yelmalio is a Unicorn, colloquially speaking.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Getting Sailor Moon vibes...

Or My Little Pony?

<'scuseme getmyowncoat showm'selfout>

[Richard S.]

3 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

If the planet Lightfore is both a Unicorn and its Princess rider, then Yelmalio is a Unicorn, colloquially speaking.

Well let's look at his geases: vegetarianism, no armor, love horses and earth, celibate, etc...

Yeah, I think it checks out.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Richard S.