EWF architecture and society

[Beoferret]

Oh devotees of the Knowing God! Hear my plea! Are there examples of EWF architecture in any current publication? If not, from what ancient culture(s) might a GM best draw upon for inspiration, in their hour of adventure-formulating need? And where might one find a basic outline of EWF social structure/society? Many thanks for whatever morsel of you may bestow upon this unworthy supplicant. 

[soltakss]

I can't remember seeing any EWF architecture in supplements. Most of it will be in ruins now, anyway.

14 minutes ago, Beoferret said:

And where might one find a basic outline of EWF social structure/society?

EWF society was mainly Second Age Orlanthi, although I would say urban Orlanthi, instead of the hillbilly Orlanthi that we know and love.

Sure, there was a veneer of Dragon-worshippers at the top, with the mystics, but the majority was Orlanth-based.

Orlanth the Dragon and Ernalda the Serpent had some influence and definitely changed some of their worshippers.

There night have been some fashion changes, for example wearing clothing that resembled that of dragonewts, or was like scaly skin, similarly EWF citizens emulated dragonewts in many ways.

 

[jajagappa]

41 minutes ago, Beoferret said:

Are there examples of EWF architecture in any current publication?

Well, the obvious published place is Old Pavis (i.e. the Big Rubble).  However, almost all of it is ruins.  Think there was an image of Griffin Gate though.

However, there was a recent Jonstown Compendium supplement set in one EWF ruin that might be useful.  (You'll find the place named Bonn Karpatch IIRC in Chaosium works.) The preview does not include any pictures of architecture though so I don't know if any are included. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/346045/Ruins-of-Bonn-Kanach

 

[Joerg]

Old Pavis was erected in EWF style, and the aerial view maps of Old Pavis in Pavis: Gateway to Adventure show some of those in low resolution. But then, Old Pavis has a lot in common with Karakorum, including the ruling class of (striped) horse warlords and the multicultural city quarters.

There is one very nice illustration of EWF folk and some of their buildings in the opening sequence of the King of Dragon Pass game.

The WIlliam Church drawing of the Dragon's Eye shows dragonewt architecture, but EWF architecture would have been influenced by that.

The Smoking Ruins are mostly from the EWF era, with older periods of the city forming some of the rubble covering that scenario's maguffin. All the ruins were given a (low resolution) William Church treatment in the board of Dragon Pass (hence my pointing to his higher resolution drawing of Dragon's Eye).

[Beoferret]

Thanks guys. I'm asking since I was thinking of an adventure involving the discovery and exploration of an EWF-era country manor house or temple. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

I seem to vaguely recall Jeff posting references for Vingkotling/Dawn Age cyclopean architecture, second age EWF/Orlanthland architecture, and modern Orlanthi architecture at some point, possibly in one of the threads discussing what Orlanthi steads/halls look like (and discussing the idea of the Ernaldan squarehouse which has more or less been canonized as the default Orlanthi dwelling nowadays). 

As for inspiration: 

I recently read the graphic novels Conquering Armies and Arn by Jean-Pierre Dionnet and Jean-Claude Gal. The artwork by Gal straddles an incredibly fascinating line between historical and fantastical. It's fantasy, but it's the sort of thing that makes you think that it's from some plausibly alternate history, if that makes sense. I believe the same style is used in a graphic novel called Diosamante. It's not spot on for Dragon Pass (the areas they tell stories from tend to be drier), but there is a mix of rock-cut and masonry on the one hand, and fantastical shapes and proportions on the other hand, which gives the buildings a kind of semi-organic look to them, which I think isn't a bad approximation for humans influenced by Dragonewts. If you're really interested, I'd suggest looking them up, or at least googling a bit around.




 

[John Biles]

Some suggestions, just out of my imagination:

They favor tile roofs with overlapping tiles which evoke dragon scales.

Further, the most important buildings are shaped like the Beast Rune, since that's also the Dragon rune.

Peasant buildings are much like 3rd age Dragon Pass but with draconic imagery painted on them.

Buildings favor the color of whatever dragon lives closest.

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

The William Church illustration of the Dragon's Eye is available on the Chaosium website:

Chaosium Announces RuneQuest: "The Dragon’s Eye" is in development - Chaosium Inc.

I personally wouldn't have the banners (too human), but I like the staircases.

 

[Oracle]

17 minutes ago, Revilo Divad Of Dyoll said:

The William Church illustration of the Dragon's Eye is available on the Chaosium website:

Chaosium Announces RuneQuest: "The Dragon’s Eye" is in development - Chaosium Inc.

I personally wouldn't have the banners (too human), but I like the staircases.

 

Gee, forgot completely about that one ...

[Sir_Godspeed]

22 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I seem to vaguely recall Jeff posting references for Vingkotling/Dawn Age cyclopean architecture, second age EWF/Orlanthland architecture, and modern Orlanthi architecture at some point, possibly in one of the threads discussing what Orlanthi steads/halls look like (and discussing the idea of the Ernaldan squarehouse which has more or less been canonized as the default Orlanthi dwelling nowadays). 

As for inspiration: 

I recently read the graphic novels Conquering Armies and Arn by Jean-Pierre Dionnet and Jean-Claude Gal. The artwork by Gal straddles an incredibly fascinating line between historical and fantastical. It's fantasy, but it's the sort of thing that makes you think that it's from some plausibly alternate history, if that makes sense. I believe the same style is used in a graphic novel called Diosamante. It's not spot on for Dragon Pass (the areas they tell stories from tend to be drier), but there is a mix of rock-cut and masonry on the one hand, and fantastical shapes and proportions on the other hand, which gives the buildings a kind of semi-organic look to them, which I think isn't a bad approximation for humans influenced by Dragonewts. If you're really interested, I'd suggest looking them up, or at least googling a bit around.

Found an example:

[Nerval]

22 hours ago, Revilo Divad Of Dyoll said:

The William Church illustration of the Dragon's Eye is available on the Chaosium website:

Chaosium Announces RuneQuest: "The Dragon’s Eye" is in development - Chaosium Inc.

It looks like a cross between the arcitecture in Timbuktu and Cappadocia.

[Darius West]

On 6/17/2021 at 3:07 AM, Beoferret said:

Oh devotees of the Knowing God! Hear my plea! Are there examples of EWF architecture in any current publication? If not, from what ancient culture(s) might a GM best draw upon for inspiration, in their hour of adventure-formulating need? And where might one find a basic outline of EWF social structure/society? Many thanks for whatever morsel of you may bestow upon this unworthy supplicant. 

Of all the damned things.  I have actually been working on this as part of my notes for New Pavis and the Big Rubble, figuring that if we are going to be talking about a huge ruin, that the architecture might be important.  I actually wrote a (deliberately pretentious) article on the subject from the perspective of a LM scholar specializing in architecture based on what I had read from a gf's architecture literature review.  Here is an excerpt regarding one building, definitely erected during the EWF period:

In discussing the architecture that remains in Old Pavis, I want to draw your attention to a final building.  It has long since been profaned and damaged beyond repair, but with the Lhankor Mhy blessing of Recreation it is yet possible to roam the structure intact, and for the student of architecture it is well worth the time.  The site is a haunting enigma, and a homily in stone, and some have even suggested that it speaks quietly of impossible things to those who have the wit to understand.  I speak of the Temple of Aldrya on Opili’s Hill.  It is not unknown for humans to have altars and shrines to Aldrya, but the Elf Goddess is elusive, inhuman, barely tied to the man rune, and the sense of those human built shrines is inevitably ersatz.  If one is not Aldryami, the representations can only be incomplete, alienating, and disquieting at best.  In this respect the Temple Hill example is quite unique for many reasons. 

Here we see colonnades, straight and linear on first appearance at a distance, yet as one draws closer, it becomes apparent that this is a trick of perspective, for the columns are mimicking the trunks of trees, yet in green shot marble.  We see subtle uses of jade-like stones, to create a semblance of life in what some might call an homage to the Vegetarian heresy of the Mostali, so we find ourselves wondering if Lord Pavis Half-Elven himself had some hand in its creation, for how else could this be?  We see beautiful caryatids, forming stone nymphs and dryads, and walled sanctums that use crystal to mimic both darkness and the dappled light that falls between branches, yet all is stone.  The Temple is formed as a Plant Rune, and once housed a Flamal, a Shanasse and an Aldrya sacred tree in each of the open courtyards of the rings that make the rune.  And yet, when we study the workmanship, there can be no doubt that this is Mostali work. 

The tracery and detail is beyond anyone else, but goes beyond a naive realism that merely represents what is, to scale, for the trees vary in size and scale, species and composition quite deliberately.  This is like the work of a dwarf, and yet it is art, and not human art trying to depict an Aldryami theme, but something greater and finer than any dwarf or elf or man could possibly create on their own.  This is architecture as art in its truest sense, for we do not know the artist, and yet we see hints of their hand in other buildings and works, including the Atring family mansion.  The record of their name is lost, and it is unlikely that this was the work of a Diamond Dwarf, though the skill required might well be of that order of magnitude.  So we face the mystery, and we are dumbfounded, and because we do not speak, we listen and we hear the Silence,  and that impossible Silence somehow provides that missing communion. And then we understand. This Temple of Aldrya is impossible.  It embodies the Green Age, and so much more, and then the Reconstruction spell lapses, and we weep at the loss, for the trolls alas have also made their contribution.

[Erol of Backford]

Yes this is an old thread and I am sorry not to start a new one but this seemed like a good place to pile on so to speak...

I was looking at the EWF posts and noted that the Gloranthian East has many real-world flavors about it. The Dragon Emperor and all. It's fine with me as I studied traditional Japanese architecture a bit when I was younger.

The old rendering of Dragon's Eye has me perplexed as it doesn't seem right. Are dragons and dragon kind disorder and if so then maybe the old Dragon's Eye rendering does fit?

I was looking for for the something more like a proportional design matrix that was developed over 100's if not 1000's of years.

Does the eastern dragon empire have straw mat flooring, are they refined in their architecture or are they distinctively random, with all planning following asymmetry if any symmetry at all in planning? 

I suppose my thought is that there must be something much more refined in the East than in the country-hick dragonewt society of Dragon's Eye? (sorry if I offend any Dragon's Eye lovers out there)

Dragon Pass - disorder and no urban planning and on the other hand, where Godunya rules as the Dragon Emperor in Kralorela they have extensive town planning and a proportional design system for buildings including a hierarchy of building ornamentation? Of course any topography many cause planning to be conducted on the side of balance asymmetry but it would be well planned rather than something just added on randomly or seemingly haphazard like that in Dragon's Eye?

 

 

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Yes this is an old thread and I am sorry not to start a new one but this seemed like a good place to pile on so to speak...

I was looking at the EWF posts and noted that the Gloranthian East has many real-world flavors about it. The Dragon Emperor and all. It's fine with me as I studied traditional Japanese architecture a bit when I was younger.

The old rendering of Dragon's Eye has me perplexed as it doesn't seem right. Are dragons and dragon kind disorder and if so then maybe the old Dragon's Eye rendering does fit?

I was looking for for the something more like a proportional design matrix that was developed over 100's if not 1000's of years.

Does the eastern dragon empire have straw mat flooring, are they refined in their architecture or are they distinctively random, with all planning following asymmetry if any symmetry at all in planning? 

I suppose my thought is that there must be something much more refined in the East than in the country-hick dragonewt society of Dragon's Eye? (sorry if I offend any Dragon's Eye lovers out there)

Dragon Pass - disorder and no urban planning and on the other hand, where Godunya rules as the Dragon Emperor in Kralorela they have extensive town planning and a proportional design system for buildings including a hierarchy of building ornamentation? Of course any topography many cause planning to be conducted on the side of balance asymmetry but it would be well planned rather than something just added on randomly or seemingly haphazard like that in Dragon's Eye?

 

 

Dragon's Eye is a Nest city of the dragonewts, not an example of EWF architecture. If you want that, you can look at Clearwine, the Falling Ruins, the Smoking Ruins, the vitrified portions of Alda-chur and numerous other places in Dragon Pass.

The towers and spires that seem to have made up much of the magical architecture of Dragon Pass may have been influenced by the sorcerers' towers of the West, with several prominent sorcerers (like the Remakers or Delecti) working for the EWF. The almost coral-like growth we see in some depictions of the EWF might well have been a draconic awakening of these edifices, with ornamental scrollwork similar to the frills of tailed dragonewt priests.

Kralorela is an offshoot of the Vithelan culture, one that acculturated quite a lot of Shan Shan Hsunchen people while bringing in the ancient Solar civilization of the Eastern empire, with its own building styles, apparently including earth-quake-resistant pagoda towers and vast palatial complexes. A portion of Eastern architecture might be architectural mantras to ward off the antigod races.

[mfbrandi]

On 8/11/2024 at 10:33 PM, Erol of Backford said:

The old rendering of Dragon’s Eye has me perplexed as it doesn’t seem right … I was looking for for the something more like a proportional design matrix that was developed over 100s if not 1000s of years.

But would dragonewt organisational principles be obvious at a glance to mere humans? There is a logic to it, but we are too stupid and too alien to make it out.

[Erol of Backford]

13 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

There is a logic to it, but we are too stupid and too alien to make it out.

But elves would notice at once it is organically fractal.

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

But elves would notice at once it is organically fractal.

Dragonewts are equally delighted to eat elves as well as humans - part of the balanced diet they need.

[Erol of Backford]

On 8/12/2024 at 4:27 AM, Joerg said:

Clearwine, the Falling Ruins, the Smoking Ruins

Actually I'd like to see any details on the Falling Ruins!? The other 2 are unimpressive at best. I'd assume, looking at ancient Pavis (Big Rubble) there would have been an incredible aesthetic for any EWF city plan and or building design. Not saying it would be like Simcity but surely much more eye popping than an old walled city with few multi-storied buildings? YGWV of course.

Do share any sources on maps and or scenarios on the Fall Ruins. I immediately  think of Miyazaki's Castle in the Sky.

I suppose a similar fate awaits the City of Wonders and the Rainbow Bridges following Belintar's demise...

  

[jajagappa]

7 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Actually I'd like to see any details on the Falling Ruins!?

It's possible this is the remains of Intan (i.e. the Intan Trail which ran from Salor and across the Dragonspine). I think there would have been ziggurats and ladders stretching up to the Sky Dome. (As noted in the Guide: "it is notorious for the fragments of a mystical ladder which still fall from the Sky into the ruins from time to time.")

 

[jajagappa]

20 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I suppose a similar fate awaits the City of Wonders and the Rainbow Bridges following Belintar's demise...

Regarding the Rainbow Bridges, in my view the color fades and they turn grey. Some refer to them as the Tattered Mist Bridges for they are sporadic and dangerous to attempt. The gates/entries are all largely closed as well (e.g. guards and wardings keep you from entering the Belintar Temple in Durengard because there are terrible dangers and horrors within as the Spirit World and/or Gods World overlap there). Even if you do get onto the bridge, it is misty - you might step onto nothing and plunge to your death, or the winds might blow a section out of reach, ...

As for the City of Wonders, per the Guide as of 1621: "The city is visible, but encased under a transparent globe of power, and only its largest landmarks are discernible...."

But as of 1624, per KoS: "But after Harrek and the pirates left, it disappeared from the world and was never seen again." and "the Wolf Pirates sacked the City of Wonders, and it disappeared from the world forever."

The Guide, p.732, reaffirms that story: "That winter, Harrek and the Wolf Pirates sacked the City of Wonders, and it disappeared from the world, its magic lost forever."

However, there are some other suggestions related to it:

• KoS p.106: "Pharandros was spared his life only because his mother, Harsta Blacktooth, begged for his life. He was confined to the City of Wonders forever." and p.129: "because of all this argument, Pharandros and his sister were confined instead, forever, to the City of Wonders." [This occurs in 1630. Does it mean he is imprisoned in the city wherever it is in the Gods World/Spirit World? Seems likely.]
• RQG p.383 (from in-world saga): ““Sorala has learned that the records she seeks were taken to the City of Wonders centuries ago by the God-King."... “How is that of interest? It sounds like a dead end.”... "When the White Bear sacked the City of Wonders, the God-King’s library was looted by Wolf Pirates and other adventurers.” 

Depending on your needs post 1624, the City of Wonders might be: 

1. Gone forever (and the Rainbow Bridges with it).
2. Gone from this world (perhaps only shadowed mists suggesting it remain), but in another world.
   1. The Gods World/Golden Age - likely accessible there
   2. The Gods World/Storm Age - a broken, crumbling ruin
   3. The Gods World/Great Darkness - ruins and rubble and Chaos
   4. The Spirit World - a kaleidoscopic place of strange spirits
   5. The Underworld - all dead things end up in the Underworld, but turned into an opposite/parody of what it was. Demons now rule there.
3. Still partially in this world, but only shattered, non-magical ruins are left.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

in this world, but only shattered, non-magical ruins are left

I confess that this is the way my prosaic imagination ran. Once sacked by thugs/pirates/soccer fans, a place is ever-after disenchanted — it is revealed as a part of the mundane world by breaking it. You torch a place, and you smash any rose-tinted spectacles you can find.

I wonder whether Glorantha can contain disenchantment without violence, stripping of glamour without third-degree burns. “I’ll give you my illusions when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.”

[Erol of Backford]

On 8/15/2024 at 11:42 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Do share any sources on maps and or scenarios on the Falling Ruins. I immediately  think of Miyazaki's Castle in the Sky.

With all the flying creatures and magical fly spells, etc. you'd think some adventurers went there.

I'll go with something like Castle in the Sky but will think it has (had) a docking station for "The Flying Land"... maybe the Falling Ruins was part of the Flying Land and broke off after getting stuck one one of the dragon spines? Like one the Pacman Ghost's losing its skirt/dress/sheet/whatever?

I suppose the Sword of Five Dooms is still there?

Bon Bolar, what was it and who is Elemenoria, able to grant wishes? Intan, where Dinkat's Ladder was raised. Human/dragon hybrids and metal animal forges... as its maybe an immortal place do most people who visit stay there?

how high up is it, what size area does it occupy, is it falling apart like in Don't Break the Ice?

Actually sounds like I want to go there.

 

    

 

On 8/12/2024 at 4:27 AM, Joerg said:

If you want that, you can look at Clearwine, the Falling Ruins, the Smoking Ruins, the vitrified portions of Alda-chur and numerous other places in Dragon Pass.

I'd like to look at the Falling Ruins please...

Edited Tuesday at 10:41 PM by Erol of Backford

[Ian A. Thomson]

On 6/17/2021 at 3:25 AM, soltakss said:

Orlanth the Dragon and Ernalda the Serpent had some influence and definitely changed some of their worshippers.

I am working currently on the Rough Guide to Pavis City, and was doing word searches on this site just now, specifically to find ideas for a few more cults to add. Specifically cults that existed in the EWF days and no longer do. Now that I have seen this title I absolutely have to create this cult. Unless someone (has already done so

If anyone else has further ideas or has seen such things around, please let me know. So far I have

• Pavis (expanded from previous versions in the series)
• Shelbaris (expanded from previous version in the series)
• Thandros the Emissary (expanded from previous version in the series)
• Orlanth Dragonfriend (new full cult)
• Uleria the Courtesan (expanded from previous version in the series)
• Tozyn the Smuggler (New incidental local criminal cult)
• Am also considering some Arachne Solara mystic witches (ideas welcome)

Edited September 23 by Ian A. Thomson

[Brian Duguid]

5 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

Now that I have seen this title I absolutely have to create this cult. Unless someone (has already done so

Ernalda the Serpent might or might not be related to Ernalda Talosa, the aspect / daughter of Ernalda that is the snake goddess, see https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/prosopaedia/deities/e/ernalda/talosa/. That cult has a small write-up on page 31 of @jajagappa's Nochet: Adventurer's Guide. There was also the Ernalda the Snake cult in the Mongoose Fronela book, described explicitly as a "draconised" version of the earth cult.

[Diadochoi]

Pavis Rises (Mongoose Publishing) p16 has the following 12 EWF temples (with high priests) listed in Pavis in 922:

Adamantine truth, All Eyes open, Earth Dragon, Sun Dragon, Ernalda the Scale, Orlanth the Dragon, Issaries Cleft-Tongue, Aroka, Inner Dragon, Path of Engimatic Configurations, Path of the Perfect Uprising and Path of the Unstruck Sound.

 

There are brief descriptions of some of the temples in the Dragon District (p18) and Dragon Mount (p51)  and a long description of the Path of Engimatic Configurations (p47-50), but the cults section of the book (p65-75) is only Pavis, Zola Fel, Lanbril and Flintnail