EWF architecture and society

[Baron]

Shelbaris? Really? 🥺 

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

Ernalda the Serpent might or might not be related to Ernalda Talosa, the aspect / daughter of Ernalda that is the snake goddess

Ernalda Talosa is the Mother of Snakes/Serpents, so very appropriate in Esrolia. 

I could see a draconic form being created by the EWF, see spoiler below.

Spoiler

The Orgorvale dragon in the Dragon of Thunder Hills scenario is very much this.

The EWF did engage with the Esrolian culture (see discussion of the Scintillator who "married" various Earth goddesses in the Esrolia, Land of 10k Goddesses book), but really did not survive the late 2nd Age catastrophies.

Also, Ernalda is not a particularly popular/common goddess in Pavis/Prax. There the snakes might have a stronger association or affinity with the River cults.

 

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

Pavis Rises (Mongoose Publishing) p16 has the following 12 EWF temples (with high priests) listed in Pavis in 922:

Adamantine truth, All Eyes open, Earth Dragon, Sun Dragon, Ernalda the Scale, Orlanth the Dragon, Issaries Cleft-Tongue, Aroka, Inner Dragon, Path of Engimatic Configurations, Path of the Perfect Uprising and Path of the Unstruck Sound.

 

There are brief descriptions of some of the temples in the Dragon District (p18) and Dragon Mount (p51)  and a long description of the Path of Engimatic Configurations (p47-50), but the cults section of the book (p65-75) is only Pavis, Zola Fel, Lanbril and Flintnail

NOTE: Bear in mind that content from Mongoose works cannot be used as material in JC publications! So unless it also appears in one of the approved sources, don't draw on it.

[Brian Duguid]

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I could see a draconic form being created by the EWF, see spoiler below.

Well, there's a whole dragon -> serpent -> snake thing going on in Glorantha that I don't think has ever been properly excavated and understood. Serpent Kings in the West, and little sign of dragons. Dragons in the Centre, and little sign of serpents. Rivers that are mythically sometimes serpents, sometimes dragons, possibly snakes. Snakes as daughters of the Earth goddesses. Reptiles more generally as animals of the earth: the children of Jaskal, child of Hykim and Gata. Dinosaurs beloved of Maran. Dinosaurs as failed dragons and failed dragonewts.

So yes, it feels like little surprise if the EWF were able to tease out a draconic aspect of Ernalda the Serpent Goddess.

[mfbrandi]

On 9/23/2024 at 11:15 AM, Ian A. Thomson said:

Am also considering some Arachne Solara mystic witches (ideas welcome)

And as mystics, they shift for themselves magically — no trading POW or MP for divine magic? I always liked the idea that Arachne Solara was above — or just apart from — the sordid business of reliance on worshippers to thrive (and that those who respected her would shun such transactionalism). The greatest of the great gods doesn’t trade with us. But that is just me. Pay me no heed. (And anyway, it is not an objection.) 😉

[Ian A. Thomson]

On 9/24/2024 at 4:44 AM, Baron said:

Shelbaris? Really? 🥺 

I am genuinely at a loss to the nature of your comment. Don't know what you mean here

Edited Wednesday at 05:09 AM by Ian A. Thomson

[Baron]

10 minutes ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

I am genuinely at a loss to the nature of your comment. Happy to receive constructive criticism or alternate viewpoints, but don't know what you mean here

C'mon, Ian, what's my name? Someone named a cult after me? If I ever introduce it into a RQ game my players will just laugh and accuse me of having a ridiculous ego!

🤣

[Ian A. Thomson]

Ah wow yes. Well, as evidenced by the original material, this name predates my knowing you by some decades :)

You can show that material to any disbelieving Players

However, oddly enough, back then when I was trying to think of a name for another daughter of Pavis, I did actually take inspiration from one of the people who was helping out, so perhaps I would have used your name as inspiration LOL

[Erol of Backford]

On 9/23/2024 at 5:15 AM, Ian A. Thomson said:

Rough Guide to Pavis City

I am looking through a pristine copy of your 2002 zine of the same name. I love it even its a bit dated, from the year 894. Its where I saw the Jolanti powered "night soil crews".

On page 31 the Temple of Elemental Harmony is noted, which contains the School of Pavic Philosophy. On the next page there are notes on the Knights of Truth and Kargan Tor's Academy of All Weapons, Brotherhood of Jalmar...

[Ian A. Thomson]

36 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

On page 31 the Temple of Elemental Harmony is noted, which contains the School of Pavic Philosophy. On the next page there are notes on the Knights of Truth and Kargan Tor's Academy of All Weapons, Brotherhood of Jalmar...

I am looking at the very same :) (Among other things.)

[Ian A. Thomson]

I saw a great post by Jeff somewhere on here, outlining the evolution of the EWF, and would like to review it again for some key points

Flipping laptop crashed and didn't save that tab as I was looking at it and thinking how interesting it was

Anyone have that information or know where the piece is on here?

One element I am particularly interested in learning about is the project to reconstruct the dragon, which i can recall from long ago and saw mentioned in this piece. Don't need a lot of detail  just an overview

Edited Wednesday at 12:27 AM by Ian A. Thomson

[Brian Duguid]

Is any of these relevant?

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-empire-of-the-wyrms-friends/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/notes-on-the-empire-of-the-wyrms-friends/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-ewf/

[Erol of Backford]

I have been wanting to ask for a while but afraid of being assaulted for not knowing the obvious... looking at the cover of Rough Guide to Pavis City from 2002 there is a nice spire likely 40 floors or more in height. There is also a dragon looking creature flying in the distance.

Was Pavis at this time (894) an EWF city or was it just friendly to dragons?

A year 900 map shows Pavis as part of the EWF but were people walking around using dragon magic, speaking Auld Wyrmish at the pubs... etc.

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Was Pavis at this time (894) an EWF city or was it just friendly to dragons?

@Ian A. Thomson may be the best person to ask on that question.

[Ian A. Thomson]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I have been wanting to ask for a while but afraid of being assaulted for not knowing the obvious... looking at the cover of Rough Guide to Pavis City from 2002 there is a nice spire likely 40 floors or more in height. There is also a dragon looking creature flying in the distance.

Spire covered in great detail in Vol. 05 (most likely out at the start of November)

My understanding (based on chats with Greg, not necessarily on anything canon) is this is Windwhistler, and he has returned since the Dragonewts Dream reopened the Rubble

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Was Pavis at this time (894) an EWF city or was it just friendly to dragons?

From the Pavis book: "Rune Priests of Pavis wear the costume of the Empire of the Wyrm’s Friends on official occasions, though the city was never an official part of that empire."

My take on this is that Pavis disagreed with significant elements of the EWF approach to draconic mysticism, and furthermore that this was part of why he founded his own city. However, as someone in favor of peace and tolerance he was accepted by the EWF despite their disagreements, and therefore many people thought it was part of the EWF

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

A year 900 map shows Pavis as part of the EWF but were people walking around using dragon magic, speaking Auld Wyrmish at the pubs... etc.

I'm deep in writing the new version of the Rough Guide to Pavis City now. Certain mystics (and there are plenty in Pavis City) would indeed converse in this, but it was more for formal, mystical practice, and not for casual chats in pubs. Highbrow scholars and mystics might use it a lot professionally though

Easiest way to answer the rest is a snippet from the Guide...

"Basically, this all means that a proportion of citizens and residents of Pavis City (3-5%) know 1-5 draconic ‘sorcery’ cantrips, and a smaller number (0.5%) know more significant spells. In daily life as you travel around the city you might well occasionally see someone light a fire with a snap of their fingers, or an older person flap down from the top of the huge step-pyramid Pavis Temple in City East on faint leathery wings, rather than the arduous effort of walking down the stairs. Or have faintly-glowing yellow or green eyes as they examine a magical trinket in the marketplace. You are less likely to see someone manifesting scale armor across their body, bounding fifty yards in a single leap on ghostly reptile legs, frying an annoying neighbor with their flaming breath, or slicing an avaricious shop-keeper in half with a huge talon that suddenly replaces their hand. Not only since such is inappropriate for normal city living, but also because most people would view all of this as unseemly showing off."

Just my humorous (hopefully) way of illustrating the very answer to questions like yours

Edited Friday at 01:11 AM by Ian A. Thomson

[Erol of Backford]

21 minutes ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

or slicing an avaricious shop-keeper in half with a huge talon that suddenly replaces their hand

Maybe this sort of action caused a slight dislike of the humans using dragon magic loosely? More likely dragonkind didn't favor lack of reserve or real need...  to your point:

23 minutes ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

flap down from the top of the huge step-pyramid Pavis Temple in City East on faint leathery wings, rather than the arduous effort of walking all the way down the stairs

To lazy to walk down the stairs so cast sprout wings?! Its likely blasphemy or sorts to those well along the path to immanent mastery or so I'd guess.

[Ian A. Thomson]

15 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Maybe this sort of action caused a slight dislike of the humans using dragon magic loosely? More likely dragonkind didn't favor lack of reserve or real need...  to your point:

To lazy to walk down the stairs so cast sprout wings?! Its likely blasphemy or sorts to those well along the path to immanent mastery or so I'd guess.

My sense of this (my Glorantha of course, not any kind of canon statement) is that occasional use of draconic mysticism for practical purposes (rather then for showing off or having unfair advantage over someone) is a reasonable part of life in Pavis City. Perhaps influenced by MGF of course, in that occasional draconic things happening in daily life in Pavis City just appeals. Also, in my mind's eye the person flapping down the stairs was an older person for whom the trip might otherwise have been challenging. (I might even extend the wordage to clarify that - Edit- done).

Edited Friday at 01:06 AM by Ian A. Thomson

[Erol of Backford]

8 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

Also, in my mind's eye the person flapping down the stairs was an older person for whom the trip might otherwise have been challenging.

But there is no arthritis in Gorantha...

[metcalph]

21 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

But there is no arthritis in Gorantha...

Joint rot - Cults of Terror p30.

[Erol of Backford]

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

Joint rot

Forgot about that. Cut off the limb and regrow it, good as new!? YGWV.

[Jeff]

On 9/23/2024 at 4:34 PM, jajagappa said:

Ernalda Talosa is the Mother of Snakes/Serpents, so very appropriate in Esrolia. 

I could see a draconic form being created by the EWF, see spoiler below.

  Reveal hidden contents

The Orgorvale dragon in the Dragon of Thunder Hills scenario is very much this.

The EWF did engage with the Esrolian culture (see discussion of the Scintillator who "married" various Earth goddesses in the Esrolia, Land of 10k Goddesses book), but really did not survive the late 2nd Age catastrophies.

Also, Ernalda is not a particularly popular/common goddess in Pavis/Prax. There the snakes might have a stronger association or affinity with the River cults.

 

Ernalda is the single largest cult in Pavis and Pavis County.

[Erol of Backford]

TotRM 15 p.36 - Cam's Well... just a couple of snakes there...