source material from the perspective of someone tainted by chaos?

[dumuzid]

To go back to the original question of the thread: p. 556 if the Guide to Glorantha has an excerpt from a Hero Wars Prophecy composed by someone called Acac the Revivifier, who claimed to be a broo.  Their prophecy claims that the cosmic doom of the Gods War is repeating itself in reverse, and that this reversion ends with the Void devouring all existence.  Several attempts to kill Acac after they pomulgated their prophecy in 1472 "failed utterly."

[AlHazred]

On 6/27/2021 at 7:11 AM, dumuzid said:

To go back to the original question of the thread: p. 556 if the Guide to Glorantha has an excerpt from a Hero Wars Prophecy composed by someone called Acac the Revivifier, who claimed to be a broo.  Their prophecy claims that the cosmic doom of the Gods War is repeating itself in reverse, and that this reversion ends with the Void devouring all existence.  Several attempts to kill Acac after they promulgated their prophecy in 1472 "failed utterly."

I mean, what do you expect from somebody basically named after poop? There's always poop! You can get rid of it but there's always more!

[Akhôrahil]

Lords of Chaos has some some nice texts about ”What is Chaos?” and ”Who was Gbaji?”. From a chaotic perspective, along with excerpts from The Book of Drastic Resolutions.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Groovetronic]

On 6/22/2021 at 1:29 AM, Nick Brooke said:

Skipping over any US v. EU culture war bullshit (we Europeans are aware that the Lunars are the "designated baddies," we just find it interesting to give them motivations beyond "I am a baddie"), the Lunar Empire, like the Orlanthi barbarians, has a complex relationship with Chaos. Here's how it's introduced in the Guide to Glorantha:

The Lunars know that Chaos is a dangerous thing, but they believe it can be useful if bound and used for civilised ends. Exhibit #1: the Crimson Bat. Exhibit #2: the Rune spell Chaos Gift. The leaders of the empire are Illuminated: by definition, they know as truth that Chaos is, in itself, neither evil nor inimical (Cults of Terror, p.86). Indeed, "Many in the Empire can balance the powers of Chaos with their responsibilities to the world" (Cults of Terror, p.87).

The Orlanthi believe Chaos is inherently evil. (This is, of course, factually incorrect: see above). In his noblest act, the storm god Orlanth accepted his personal responsibility for the devastation caused by Chaos in the Great Darkness, when his brother Ragnaglar, aided by his victim Thed (who Orlanth had denied justice), brought his nephew Wakboth the Devil into the world to bring about its destruction. In their Great Compromise, both Orlanth and Yelm agreed to make Entropy into one of the ruling principles of Glorantha (Time is the child of Arachne Solara and the Devil: the synthesis of Entropy and Existence).

Some Lunars find the Orlanthi terrifyingly slapdash in way they play around with things that might destabilise the Cosmos. They've broken everything before (and regretted it afterwards), and goodness knows some of their crazed extremists seem willing to break everything again. 

Some Orlanthi simple-mindedly assert that the Lunar Empire is "openly chaotic," although they know that at Castle Blue its Red Goddess proved herself to be a part of the world of Glorantha, included within their Great Compromise. Paraphrasing only slightly, it would appear that they intend to destroy the Great Compromise in order to save it. Those who learn nothing from mythology, it seems, are doomed to repeat it.

I love Argrath's answer to this. No, Chaos is the doom of Glorantha, and Gbaji always lies.

 

http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/98-time/

 

If Yelm had not sought to steal the Earth, Chaos would never have entered the world. Yelm the Illuminant is the most terrifying chaos god. Universal authority belongs only to the celestial court, which was stolen. YGWV.

[UnlikelyLass]

Not that I have any great insight into any of this, but…

I’ve always interpreted the I Fought, We Won and Great Compromise as, basically, the world being destroyed completely, and then everybody involved — still alive in some primal state — collectively deciding to recreate the world.  Everybody involved “agreed to continue”.  And one of the side effects of that conscious rebirth of the world fundamentally modified the original situation, turning Chaos from something outside and alien to Glorantha into something which was inherently part of Glorantha.  And part of that incorporation of Chaos into the fundamental nature of Glorantha resulted in Time.  Chaos isn’t the enemy of Order after the Compromise, it’s just a part of the whole, the nature of which has changed.

Not profound, exactly, but it does change the relationship of Void/Destruction/Chaos and Law/Order/Glorantha a bit, I think.

To answer the original question, I feel like there might be something from the POV of Ralzakark in Secrets of Dorastor (RQ3), but it’s been awhile since I read it.  Likewise, although they aren’t properly “chaotic”, exactly, there are characters presented in Strangers in Prax who are dedicated Lunars with various chaos abilities.  I’m not sure that really counts as what the OP was asking for, though.

Edited July 19, 2021 by UnlikelyLass
Misspelled Ralzakark

[Darius West]

On 6/22/2021 at 3:54 AM, g33k said:

"Chaos" isn't "evil," precisely.

It is unbounded potential  (to create or destroy or change)  without any inherent moral or intellectual guidance.

It can give rise to amazing beauty, beyond your wildest hopes and dreams.

It can also warp and corrupt what is pure, destroy what is great, and create things more vile than your worst nightmares.

Inevitably, eventually, Chaos will create something so potent and so vile, that it will destroy all of Glorantha (that is the nature of anything both unbounded & unguided).

But, just like the lion isn't "evil" for eating an innocent antelope, chaos isn't "evil" for destroying things.

Nevertheless, many of us antelopes WILL oppose it, utterly; and for ease of use & comprehension, many just slap the "evil" tag onto it instead of philosophizing...

Bah!  Written like some filthy illuminate.  You say chaos isn't evil, but everything touched by it soon becomes evil.  You say it can give rise to amazing beauty, but the chances of seeing such a thing are slim to none, and even if you do it will be some POW guzzling succubus.  Now while a lion isn't evil for eating an antelope, a lion broo that rapes the antelope is pretty evil.  Life takes life to renew itself, but chaos simply flings life into an endless screaming void.  The gullet of the Crimson Bat is the true face of chaos, and I hope you chaos lovers all get fed to it and get properly "illuminated" about what chaos is really all about.😜

Edited July 26, 2021 by Darius West

[simonh]

On 7/19/2021 at 1:31 AM, UnlikelyLass said:

 And part of that incorporation of Chaos into the fundamental nature of Glorantha resulted in Time.  

Right, hence Sedenya's title of the Mistress of Time. She is cyclicality, which includes creative destruction so of course she is intimately associated with Chaos, but also awakening and renewal.

[AlHazred]

I look at it this way. Apologies for my punditry.

The earliest entities were transcendental in nature. They weren't "god," "spirit," or "essence," (to use the Four Worlds Model terminology) but all those things and more. Somehow, the entities self-divided their group (my current thinking was, it was the moment of individual realization that "I Am Not The Same As You"). This division was an Error with a capital "E" --- by forming division, there was necessarily a gap. And a gap in Reality must be filled, from Outside Reality. Things from Outside Reality are, by their very nature, alien to entities in Reality. This is "chaos creatures." Calling an individual chaos creature "mortal" or "immortal" is a mistake -- they are from Outside Reality, and are not wholly subject to the laws of Reality that Real entities must abide. I suspect the Error is identified in myths as the Spike exploding. The moment of recognition of the Error is I Fought We Won/The Compromise, both events being one event seen from two different perspectives: one from an entity who will end up in the God Time, and the other from an entity who will end up in Glorantha.

Okay, that's enough fictive navel-gazing for now.

[Joerg]

16 hours ago, AlHazred said:

I look at it this way. Apologies for my punditry.

The earliest entities were transcendental in nature. They weren't "god," "spirit," or "essence," (to use the Four Worlds Model terminology) but all those things and more.

There is possibly some truth to that, as both the Chaosium in the Underworld and the Source of all energies in the Ultimate appear to be indivisible.

There is however the concept of the Collision of the Four Worlds. If there was a separation, it appears to have happened prior to the conception of the Four Quarters of the world.

The strict dogma of the three separate otherworlds (and the lack of a separate otherworld for the fourth quarter unless you count the illusionary realm which is not a true otherworld) has been left behind only with the publication of the Guide to Glorantha.

 

16 hours ago, AlHazred said:

Somehow, the entities self-divided their group (my current thinking was, it was the moment of individual realization that "I Am Not The Same As You").

This sounds a bit like the Vithelan myth about the three noble antigods, the sorcerer, the priest, and the shaman, and how their desire to prove their value and power to (and against) their progenitor Vith misfired, both individually and as a team.

 

16 hours ago, AlHazred said:

This division was an Error with a capital "E" --- by forming division, there was necessarily a gap. And a gap in Reality must be filled, from Outside Reality. Things from Outside Reality are, by their very nature, alien to entities in Reality.

This describes dragons - ancestral dragons - quite well.

 

16 hours ago, AlHazred said:

This is "chaos creatures." Calling an individual chaos creature "mortal" or "immortal" is a mistake -- they are from Outside Reality, and are not wholly subject to the laws of Reality that Real entities must abide. I suspect the Error is identified in myths as the Spike exploding.

My own theory is that the incessant process of Creation overcrowded reality, pushing it against the seams of the Cosmos, which then began to fracture at the weaknesses. It is no surprise that the return of the Unholy Trio occurred at the seam where the sky dome was lifted above the underlying underworld "sky" bowl, and that the horde led by Wakboth came from the North where the impact of Umath had left ruin. That's where the seams were the weakest.

Neither I Fought We Won nor the Compromise are universally accepted truths, although the latter was spread by the Theyalans and their successors in syncretism, the God Learners.

[AlHazred]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is possibly some truth to that

I should have prefaced my remarks with, "This is all me. I have never had a conversation with Mr. Stafford longer than 'How much is that product?' at GenCon." My stuff is undoubtedly not canonical, and might not even be comprehensible from a position of canon. 🙂

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

My own theory is that the incessant process of Creation overcrowded reality, pushing it against the seams of the Cosmos, which then began to fracture at the weaknesses. It is no surprise that the return of the Unholy Trio occurred at the seam where the sky dome was lifted above the underlying underworld "sky" bowl, and that the horde led by Wakboth came from the North where the impact of Umath had left ruin. That's where the seams were the weakest.

Neither I Fought We Won nor the Compromise are universally accepted truths, although the latter was spread by the Theyalans and their successors in syncretism, the God Learners.

That's a very Aldryami idea of it!

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, AlHazred said:

I should have prefaced my remarks with, "This is all me. I have never had a conversation with Mr. Stafford longer than 'How much is that product?' at GenCon." My stuff is undoubtedly not canonical, and might not even be comprehensible from a position of canon. 🙂

Gloranthan insight doesn't necessarily come from sitting in a circle around the grand master. Much more comes from setting out with an idea or plan, implementing it against the resistance of established stories, contesting with the champions of lore, and finding other questers picking up one's ideas.

Pretty much like the story of Belintar.

 

6 hours ago, AlHazred said:

That's a very Aldryami idea of it!

Actually, quite Mostali, blaming everything on uncontrolled and un-countered Growth.

[AlHazred]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Actually, quite Mostali, blaming everything on uncontrolled and un-countered Growth.

I don't know, it reads very closely to what Shannon Appelcline put in the MRQ1 Elves book, as the First Age of the Aldryami, the Age of Growing.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, AlHazred said:

I don't know, it reads very closely to what Shannon Appelcline put in the MRQ1 Elves book, as the First Age of the Aldryami, the Age of Growing.

Yes it does. The Creation Age dichotomy of Grower and Maker, carried on by the Aldryami and the Mostali, is one of the most ancient grievances. The trolls predated on this for quite a while before either party wizened up and included them in their attention to conflict.

"Too much Growth" is a Mostali complaint. The Aldryami are fine with everything overgrown.

 

The birth of Umath was outside of the Mostali blueprints. They probably had some provision for an inner fluid inside the Sky Dome, but that brute pushing down the Earth cube so that the waters could enter from the sides was outside of any parameters, as was unhinging the celestial bowl.

I cannot tell whether the four pillars in the cardinal directions were part of the original plan or a reaction and improvised repair to Umath's birth lifting up the Sky Dome. Mostal was already derailed by that, and when Shargash's wrestling throw smashed Umath into the northen pillar, Mostal had lost coherence, leaving the eight castes of the Mostali rather clueless about the plans for the World Machine. Then things grew worse.

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

21 minutes ago, Joerg said:

"Too much Growth" is a Mostali complaint. The Aldryami are fine with everything overgrown.

 

While Belintar's "Aldrya's Own Story" is more than twenty years old, it at least seems to disagree with you: 


It seems to argue that uncontrolled Growth CAUSED Taker (or more accurately, a portion of Oblivion, which would BECOME Taker: )

Quote

At the end of the Age of the Grower, the entirety of creation was filled with life. But, since the Taker had not yet come into the world, the Growth continued, straining at the fabric of the universe. A tiny crack appeared into the universe, and a bit of Oblivion seeped into the world of Potential.

It also views the current state in Time as actually preferable to the conditions in the God Time (or at least preferable to the Storm and Dark Ages in God Time: )

Quote

When Sanarana recreated the world, the flowers bloomed, life coursed, buds opened ot be leaves. In the new world, neither Grower or Taker was all-powerful. They both controlled equal parts of the world, and thus, at last, the Universe was at harmony.

I think it's also worth noting that the Aldryami concept of Grower is not just plant growth or fertility, it is a cosmic principle, and they view the creation of water, the sky, and so forth, as caused by Grower. Conversely, Taker is also a larger cosmic principle. I'd argue that Grower has more in common with the Draconic or Malkioni ideas of duplication/division/differention/emanation than simply the colloquial sense of "growth". 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Sir_Godspeed

[Sir_Godspeed]

This is all supposing that a) Belintar's perspective/recollection is representative of at least some Aldryami's worldview, and b) the text is not conceptually outdated.