What does Gagarth offer?

[Akhôrahil]

I had forgotten it's a Pentan thing as well (East Sting Wind). Here he seems to be a far more accepted deity, worshiped at a tribal level.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[coffeemancer]

An actual tangible benefit in my game: Gagarth sends stray dogs to outlaw groups, with all the benefits dogs brings

[Akhôrahil]

35 minutes ago, coffeemancer said:

An actual tangible benefit in my game: Gagarth sends stray dogs to outlaw groups, with all the benefits dogs brings

My PCs have ”Bad Dogs” as ancestral enemy, and they just keep showing up! Gagarthi hounds definitely fit here too.

[svensson]

Gargath offers magic and community to those who've been thrown out of their original ones.

Most Orlanthi are raised in a cradle of support both materially and spiritually by the network of clan and cult organizations. Once those are removed bandits, kinslayers, and other ne'er do wells seek some other kind of fellowship and support. Gargath provides this in a way that most Orlanthi can easily adapt to.

In many ways, you could say that the cult of Gargath is the last step before one falls entirely off the Path of Storm altogether.

Edited July 20, 2021 by svensson

[svensson]

On 7/19/2021 at 4:36 PM, Akhôrahil said:

My PCs have ”Bad Dogs” as ancestral enemy, and they just keep showing up! Gagarthi hounds definitely fit here too.

There are no bad dogs, only bad Heortlings.... 😜

[Akhôrahil]

20 minutes ago, svensson said:

There are no bad dogs, only bad Heortlings.... 😜

If you ask the PCs, it’s doubtful whether good dogs exist. 🙂

[coffeemancer]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

There are no bad dogs, only bad Heortlings.... 😜

After the players killed a bunch of outlaws and their dog was barking angrily at the ma surviivor did everything he could to get them not to hurt the dog. he told them gagarth had sent it and would curse them if they hurt it. 
Some failed lore rolls later and the PC's said "well, that sounds wrong. But we don't know enough about Gagarth to dispute it"

Outlaws do seem to love their dogs.

[svensson]

6 minutes ago, coffeemancer said:

After the players killed a bunch of outlaws and their dog was barking angrily at the ma surviivor did everything he could to get them not to hurt the dog. he told them gagarth had sent it and would curse them if they hurt it. 
Some failed lore rolls later and the PC's said "well, that sounds wrong. But we don't know enough about Gagarth to dispute it"

Outlaws do seem to love their dogs.

Smooth.

Here, Bob, have +3% Orate skill....

[Yes, I am the kind of referee that'll award good thinking with bumps in hard-to-improve skills like Orate or Devise for quick thinking at the table]

Edited July 22, 2021 by svensson

[AndreJarosch]

If Gagarth worshippers are unpredictable violent that the whole cult is made out of individuals that are cast out of other cultural groups and cults, why do group together in a raiding band (or similar)?
Did they at least respect EACH OTHER?

 

[svensson]

1 minute ago, AndreJarosch said:

If Gagarth worshippers are unpredictable violent that the whole cult is made out of individuals that are cast out of other cultural groups and cults, why do group together in a raiding band (or similar)?
Did they at least respect EACH OTHER?

 

Because lone bandits have low life expectancies.

Humans are basically social creatures. This is why we find the 'lone wolf' types so compelling. SOMEBODY has to be on guard duty while the rest of the bandit gang sleeps after all. Even broo have enough of a social organization to form gangs, so it's not unusual at all that humans do.

It is true that the basis of that organization is most often negative rather than positive... fear instead of tradition or respect, desperation instead of love or loyalty... but outcasts do form gangs to prey upon others. The only other options are to starve to death out in the wilderness, be slain out of hand as an outlaw, or be hunted down and killed by a predator.

Why do you think so many outlawed Sartarites headed to Pavis or Nochet? Those places had civilizations and societies that were familiar and where safety could be found.

[AndreJarosch]

18 minutes ago, svensson said:

Because lone bandits have low life expectancies.

Humans are basically social creatures. This is why we find the 'lone wolf' types so compelling. SOMEBODY has to be on guard duty while the rest of the bandit gang sleeps after all. Even broo have enough of a social organization to form gangs, so it's not unusual at all that humans do.

That is a good thing to remind me of: broo. 

So basically a Gargathi band isn´t much different than a group of broo, except that their members are humans. 

Gargathi will not detect as chaotic, but i assume that most Praxians will deal with them the same way they deal with broo. 

[Akhôrahil]

23 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

Gargathi will not detect as chaotic, but i assume that most Praxians will deal with them the same way they deal with broo. 

Up to and including sometimes hiring for them for dirty business.

[svensson]

14 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

That is a good thing to remind me of: broo. 

So basically a Gargathi band isn´t much different than a group of broo, except that their members are humans. 

Gargathi will not detect as chaotic, but i assume that most Praxians will deal with them the same way they deal with broo. 

Well, just because they're outlaws doesn't mean that Gargath worshipers aren't still Heortlings /Orlanthi.

Think of it this way:

Orlanth is the King of the Storm Tribe. He owns the Air and Mastery runes and all that are related to Umath are in his Tribe.

Eurmal is primarily a trickster and provocateur. He uses the Storm Tribe as a plaything. But for all his faults, Eurmal provides avenues for necessary but uncomfortable change [such as when he stole Death]. Because his actions are not predatory and because he gives something back to the community, Eurmal is protected.

Gargarth is just as much a son of Umath as Orlanth is and is by definition a member of the Storm Tribe. But he PREYS on the Storm Tribe, taking Life [in a literal and runic sense] and property and gives nothing back. He is anger against society personified, a killing wind that leaves nothing but destruction in his wake. But he is STILL a Wind and still in the Storm Tribe.

Chaos is a whole different thing. Heortlings and other right-minded people can understand outlaws, even if they don't like them. They understand that hate and greed can drive a man to do terrible things. But Chaos is an abomination. Chaos doesn't create anything that normal people understand. Chaos defiles Life, Chaos destroys everything that makes life worth living, Chaos is the vilest thing a Heortling can think of.

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, svensson said:

Gargarth is just as much a son of Umath as Orlanth is and is by definition a member of the Storm Tribe.

Grandson, but the point stands.

6 minutes ago, svensson said:

But he is STILL a Wind and still in the Storm Tribe.

This is important - you don't stop being kin for becoming a Gagarthi (compare with Orlanth and Daga). It creates all kinds of complications.

Although that said, I think Praxians will kill them on sight.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[AndreJarosch]

11 minutes ago, svensson said:

Well, just because they're outlaws doesn't mean that Gargath worshipers aren't still Heortlings /Orlanthi.

Think of it this way:

Orlanth is the King of the Storm Tribe. He owns the Air and Mastery runes and all that are related to Umath are in his Tribe.

Eurmal is primarily a trickster and provocateur. He uses the Storm Tribe as a plaything. But for all his faults, Eurmal provides avenues for necessary but uncomfortable change [such as when he stole Death]. Because his actions are not predatory and because he gives something back to the community, Eurmal is protected.

Gargarth is just as much a son of Umath as Orlanth is and is by definition a member of the Storm Tribe. But he PREYS on the Storm Tribe, taking Life [in a literal and runic sense] and property and gives nothing back. He is anger against society personified, a killing wind that leaves nothing but destruction in his wake. But he is STILL a Wind and still in the Storm Tribe.

Chaos is a whole different thing. Heortlings and other right-minded people can understand outlaws, even if they don't like them. They understand that hate and greed can drive a man to do terrible things. But Chaos is an abomination. Chaos doesn't create anything that normal people understand. Chaos defiles Life, Chaos destroys everything that makes life worth living, Chaos is the vilest thing a Heortling can think of.

I am aware of that, that is why i wrote PRAXIANS and not Orlanthi. 

In an Orlanthi (Sartatrite) society they are a BIG problem, because Orlanthi society doesn´t want them around (that is why the outlaw them), but can´t kill them on the spot, because they are kin. When then outlawed Gargathi roam Prax, i don´t think that Praxians will have as much qualmsand will just kill them like they would do with a band of broo (the occaccional Eiritha worshipper might intervene, but i don´t think that a Praxian warrior will even think twice about it). 

[Akhôrahil]

Just now, AndreJarosch said:

I am aware of that, that is why i wrote PRAXIANS and not Orlanthi. 

In an Orlanthi (Sartatrite) society they are a BIG problem, because Orlanthi society doesn´t want them around (that is why the outlaw them), but can´t kill them on the spot, because they are kin. When then outlawed Gargathi roam Prax, i don´t think that Praxians will have as much qualmsand will just kill them like they would do with a band of broo (the occaccional Eiritha worshipper might intervene, but i don´t think that a Praxian warrior will even think twice about it). 

One minor difference might be that while killing Broo is a religious duty, killing Gagarthi is about practicality. Praxians will likely accept longer odds against Broo.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I would say that (human) gloranthan people would see cultural ennemies > gargathi > tusk riders > broos

 

from a praxian perspective, I m not sure that gargathi are seen realy differently than a group from any "hostile" tribe ?

if there is an opportunity to gain something, attack them

if there is a risk to be defeated, avoid them

 

[svensson]

Well, I kind of thought this convo was about 'why Gargath exists at all' or maybe 'why does anyone worship Gargarth to begin with'.

You can't tell someone's cult affiliation right off. Nobody is walking around with a big glowing sign above their head that says 'SEVEN MOTHERS' or 'ORLANTH' on it. You can recognize runes as decorations and intuit a person's demeanor, but whether they're bandits or not isn't something people can usually tell immediately. A Gargarth worshiper has every reason to wear the Air rune. I don't know what other runes Gargarth is affiliated with, but Disorder, Motion, or Death seem appropriate. And they could wear any of those. For that matter, you can wear whatever runes you like on your gear. There is no requirement beyond social convention that states that one MUST wear the runes of one's cult[s] and ONLY those. At least there isn't one I'm aware of.

As for how Praxians will treat ANY traveler, that largely depends on the tribe and the era. In Prax's Lunar Era, the Bisons would likely hit anything coming down the Moonbroth Road as a matter of course, but the Sables are constrained by treaty to let Lunar traffic pass unmolested. Caravans are ALWAYS subject to raids or extortion on the road if the nomad warband is large enough. The rule of thumb is that traveler has to prove to the nomads that he has right of passage [by treaty or force of arms] or else he'll probably get raided.

Edited July 22, 2021 by svensson

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

As for how Praxians will treat ANY traveler, that largely depends on the tribe and the era. 

One complication here might be that Orlanthi can mostly be trusted to adhere to the rules of hospitality even if they’re weirdo foreigners, while Gagarthi will be completely opportunistic about it. No-one in their right mind would trust the word or oath of a Gagarthi, as nothing holds them to it.

[svensson]

13 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

One complication here might be that Orlanthi can mostly be trusted to adhere to the rules of hospitality even if they’re weirdo foreigners, while Gagarthi will be completely opportunistic about it. No-one in their right mind would trust the word or oath of a Gagarthi, as nothing holds them to it.

I think you might be missing the point, O Numenorian

Exactly how does the average Praxian, who has little exposure to Storm cults other than rumor and the odd fact he picks up from a Storm Bull, know someone is a Gargarthi or not? No Gargarthi in his right mind [granting that a fair percentage of them are NOT in their right mind, btw] is going to walk up to anybody and say 'Hi, I'm an initiate of the God of Outlaws. Mind if I sit for a spell?" That would be like somebody in Pavis bragging that he's a Lanbril while swilling down ale at Gimpy's. The whole point of criminal cults [Gargath, Lanbril, Black Fang, Krarsht, Thanatar, etc.] is that they're secret. They don't go walking around waving their runic associations in people's faces, and they certainly don't go bragging about it.

If a Heortling stranger approaches a Praxian nomad camp and knows the greetings, is polite, provides fair exchange for what they are given [a story over supper, honest coin for goods, whatever], and doesn't stay long, then why would the Praxians care what cult he worships?

For that matter, Gargath is an obscure cult even among Heortlings /Orlanthi /Sartarites, so how is the average Praxian gonna know about him other than an Culture [Sartar] roll for a special success or better?

Edited July 23, 2021 by svensson

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, svensson said:

I think you might be missing the point, O Numenorian

Exactly how does the average Praxian, who has little exposure to Storm cults other than rumor and the odd fact he picks up from a Storm Bull, know someone is a Gargarthi or not? No Gargarthi in his right mind [granting that a fair percentage of them are NOT in their right mind, btw] is going to walk up to anybody and say 'Hi, I'm an initiate of the God of Outlaws. Mind if I sit a spell?" That would be like somebody in Pavis bragging that he's a Lanbril while swilling down ale at Gimpy's. The whole point of criminal cults [Gargath, Lanbril, Black Fang, Krarsht, Thanatar, etc.] is that they're secret. They don't go walking around waving their runic associations in people's faces, and they certainly don't go bragging about it.

If a Heortling stranger approaches a Praxian nomad camp and knows the greetings, is polite, provides fair exchange for what they are given [a story over supper, honest coin for good, whatever], and doesn't stay long, then why would the Praxians care what cult he worships?

For that matter, Gargath is an obscure cult even among Heortlings /Orlanthi /Sartarites, so how is the average Praxian gonna know about him other than an Culture [Sartar] roll for a special success or better?

Gagarth is a bigger cult in Prax than in Dragon Pass. I suspect the average Praxian knows a little bit more about Gagarthi than the average Sartarite (to whom they are boogiemen).

And Gagarth is not particularly secretive. They are outlaws who don't give a damn if you know or don't know - as they rarely interact with others under the supervision of authority.

[svensson]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

Gagarth is a bigger cult in Prax than in Dragon Pass. I suspect the average Praxian knows a little bit more about Gagarthi than the average Sartarite (to whom they are boogiemen).

And Gagarth is not particularly secretive. They are outlaws who don't give a damn if you know or don't know - as they rarely interact with others under the supervision of authority.

But just like outlaws in the American Wild West, robber bands in Europe, or bushrangers in Australia, even these bad men knew when to restrain their predatory urges for the sake of their own safety and security.

I DO see your point about Gargath being more prevalent in Prax, though. It IS the Land of Outlaws so far as many Sartarites and Lunars are concerned. That would make Gargath's worship more available if only because it's more needed.

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, svensson said:

But just like outlaws in the American Wild West, robber bands in Europe, or bushrangers in Australia, even these bad men knew when to restrain their predatory urges for the sake of their own safety and security.

I DO see your point about Gargath being more prevalent in Prax, though. It IS the Land of Outlaws so far as many Sartarites and Lunars are concerned. That would make Gargath's worship more available if only because it's more needed.

Oh Gagarthi don't attack when it is stupid for them to attack. At least not usual. But these are folk outlawed from tribal society and expelled from their religions - they end up with Gagarth because he's the only one that will take them. They band together because they have to - I doubt they trust each other, but they need each other into order to survive in a hostile world.

[Joerg]

22 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Grandson, but the point stands.

This is important - you don't stop being kin for becoming a Gagarthi (compare with Orlanth and Daga). It creates all kinds of complications.

Upon being declared outlaw and going into the wilderness or exile, you stop being kin - that's the point. The kinship group distances itself from the outlaw and any responsibility.

Unless the outlaw belongs to one of the minority cults, she will lose her temple membership at the same stroke.

Blood kinship may be a little thicker than legal kinship. But then, plenty of drama results from disputes inside a family. But then, Orlanth started his rulership career as a kinslayer.

 

22 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Although that said, I think Praxians will kill them on sight.

Only if they can do so without undue harm to themselves (beyond the normal risk at raiding). Praxians are as pragmatic. More likely, they would have keep scouts an eye on them while collecting a band of riders to deal with them.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Joerg

[Akhôrahil]

50 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Upon being declared outlaw and going into the wilderness or exile, you stop being kin - that's the point. The kinship group distances itself from the outlaw and any responsibility.

I don't think I agree. You're ejected from you clan (which means that outsiders can kill you without repercussions because you're not under clan or tribe protection), but not from your bloodline - you don't stop being a relative. Note how Orlanth can't fight Daga directly in KoDP, because no matter what else, he's still kin.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Akhôrahil