What does Gagarth offer?

[coffeemancer]

but isnt everyone within your clan kin? people get their spouses from outside the clan to avoid incest, dont they?

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, coffeemancer said:

but isnt everyone within your clan kin? people get their spouses from outside the clan to avoid incest, dont they?

I think only your bloodline and actual relatives count as incestuous - you can surely have sex within your clan, and it's only marriage that ought to be done outside it, for practical reasons (political and counter-inbreeding).

If outlawry actually severed all kinship, then it would be no particular problem to kill or have sex with close relatives post-outlawry, and that doesn't seem right to me - I believe people would still think that's against the natural order.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[coffeemancer]

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think only your bloodline and actual relatives count as incestuous - you can surely have sex within your clan, and it's only marriage that ought to be done outside it, for practical reasons (political and counter-inbreeding).

If outlawry actually severed all kinship, then it would be no particular problem to kill or have sex with close relatives post-outlawry, and that doesn't seem right to me - I believe people would still think that's against the natural order.

Indeed, but is wouldnt be illegal.

Suddenly outlawry has some upsides🙃

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, coffeemancer said:

Indeed, but is wouldnt be illegal.

Suddenly outlawry has some upsides🙃

Although if you're under temporary outlawry, behaving really badly could get the clan to change it to permanent when they decide they never want you back...

[AndreJarosch]

17 hours ago, Jeff said:

Oh Gagarthi don't attack when it is stupid for them to attack. At least not usual. But these are folk outlawed from tribal society and expelled from their religions - they end up with Gagarth because he's the only one that will take them. They band together because they have to - I doubt they trust each other, but they need each other into order to survive in a hostile world.

I am right to assume that a lot of Gargathi have still to wrestle with spirits of reprisal from they former cults?

For instande an ex-Humakti that can´t use his sword skill (which would be his best weapon skill) because all blades shatter as soon as he touches them. He has to fight with weapons he isn´t as much familiar with as with swords. And he likes to fight and kill Humakti, because they can use what he can´t anymore. 

[coffeemancer]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

Although if you're under temporary outlawry, behaving really badly could get the clan to change it to permanent when they decide they never want you back...

"what? come on! that goat didnt count!"

Edited July 23, 2021 by coffeemancer

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

I am right to assume that a lot of Gargathi have still to wrestle with spirits of reprisal from they former cults?

I would assume so, although at least your fellow Gagarthi will be used to it and may be better placed than usual to help you get through it, if they can be bothered.

6 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

For instande an ex-Humakti that can´t use his sword skill (which would be his best weapon skill) because all blades shatter as soon as he touches them. He has to fight with weapons he isn´t as much familiar with as with swords. And he likes to fight and kill Humakti, because they can use what he can´t anymore. 

Sounds right to me, although he should probably try to bushwhack them now, or bring his pals - he's likely to be at a serious disadvantage. I could easily picture a sufficiently depraved ex-Humakti relishing in dishonorable behaviour.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[coffeemancer]

4 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

I am right to assume that a lot of Gargathi have still to wrestle with spirits of reprisal from they former cults?

For instande an ex-Humakti that can´t use his sword skill (which would be his best weapon skill) because all blades shatter as soon as he touches them. He has to fight with weapons he isn´t as much familiar with as with swords. And he likes to fight and kill Humakti, because they can use what he can´t anymore. 

maybe Gagarth can protect or hide you from the spirits?

[Akhôrahil]

30 minutes ago, coffeemancer said:

maybe Gagarth can protect or hide you from the spirits?

I could easily imagine a ritual that at the very least helps. Full immunity seems a bit too good - that's the domain of illuminates. 

And if you have friends associates when you know a spirit of reprisal is showing up, maybe you can even beat it down?

Plot Hook: A band of Gagarthi have defeated and bound Spirits of Reprisal from [your cult]. This is utterly unacceptable - go and free the spirits and kill as many of the outlaws as you can get away with! Freed SoRs will help you out. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Darius West]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think only your bloodline and actual relatives count as incestuous - you can surely have sex within your clan, and it's only marriage that ought to be done outside it, for practical reasons (political and counter-inbreeding).

If outlawry actually severed all kinship, then it would be no particular problem to kill or have sex with close relatives post-outlawry, and that doesn't seem right to me - I believe people would still think that's against the natural order.

I agree with you, so let me add that incest is chaos, and it leads to ogres in Glorantha.  This is kinship information that is encoded in one's tribal tattoos.  Just because someone is made an outlaw doesn't mean that their bloodline's ties to their kin is extinguished; they don't suddenly not have a mother and father, the outlaw's position is one comparable to being an orphan, in that their parents have disowned them and the outlaw is dead to their kin.

3 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

Indeed, but is wouldnt be illegal. Suddenly outlawry has some upsides🙃

There is no upside to producing ogres through incest.

2 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

maybe Gagarth can protect or hide you from the spirits?

No write-up of Gagarth has ever suggested such a thing.  Gagarthi live poor and brutal lives on the fringes of Orlanthi and Praxian society, more akin to broos than humans.  The thing that saves a Gagarthi from spirits of retribution is time and the severance of the ties to their former god.  Spirits of retribution follow the connection established by the sacrifice of that point of POW at initiation, as it forms the conduit to the god one worships.  When that connection is severed, so too is the threat of spirits of retribution.

[Sir_Godspeed]

5 minutes ago, Darius West said:

they don't suddenly not have a mother and father, the outlaw's position is one comparable to being an orphan, in that their parents have disowned them and the outlaw is dead to their kin.

That's... that's the same thing though.

[Darius West]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

That's... that's the same thing though.

Err... no, because it would mean you are not just incestuous but a necrophile if you then had sex with a parent. 

[Akhôrahil]

37 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Just because someone is made an outlaw doesn't mean that their bloodline's ties to their kin is extinguished; they don't suddenly not have a mother and father

Yeah, Oedipus doesn't get off the hook just because he was abandoned in the woods by his parents as a baby.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

By the way, as the creator of this thread, I'm perfectly fine with the thread drift to Gagarthi and outlawry more generally - I think the initial question has mostly been answered with several different options that likely all apply to some extent.

[Darius West]

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

By the way, as the creator of this thread, I'm perfectly fine with the thread drift to Gagarthi and outlawry more generally - I think the initial question has mostly been answered with several different options that likely all apply to some extent.

I wonder what Gagarth's associated cults are, now that we have an expanded potential list?

My suggestions would include some of:

Finovan, Lanbril, Trickster, Valind, Stormbull, Thed, Malia, Black Fang.

I also suspect that Gagarth is likely to be a shamanic cult rather than a priestly one, as bandits don't generally move in clan-like numbers.

[Akhôrahil]

47 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I wonder what Gagarth's associated cults are, now that we have an expanded potential list?

My suggestions would include some of:

Finovan, Lanbril, Trickster, Valind, Stormbull, Thed, Malia, Black Fang.

Not sure he has any, but Valind might be the closest, both in kinship and mindset. EDIT: And maybe Ygg, if the cults ever met.

Although things might be different in Pent, where it's conceivable that the Four Winds are associated with each other. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Darius West]

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Not sure he has any, but Valind might be the closest, both in kinship and mindset.

Although things might be different in Pent, where it's conceivable that the Four Winds are associated with each other. 

Well, it is true that Orlanth stripped him of many things, including kinship relations, but I doubt that is the end of the story.  I mean Gagarth rides around on a beaked horse with hellhounds, perhaps we should consider the possibility of adding Hippoi or one of the Griffin deities plus Narangros to the list?  I also think that for someone called the Wild Hunter, Gagarth seems to lack much in the way of hunting abilities.  I would add that many of the deities in question  I listed aren't strong on kinship ties themselves, e.g. Lanbril, Black Fang and Trickster.  I also think that potential ties to chaos, especially Malia, are likely, as the bad winds bring disease.

[Akhôrahil]

5 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Narangros

Narangros is an interesting suggestion, but does he have any cult at all, rather than occurring as a monster and mythological figure? But I do think you might invoke your worship of Gagarth to get a better reception by Narangros at least, and might even get provided with spirits by him if you promise good hunting. 

With other criminal cults, I would guess that it's probably more a case of neutrality and occasional cooperation rather than any formalized association. I don't think Gagarth makes a lot of friends, and not-actually-hated may be as good as it gets. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[jajagappa]

21 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Narangros is an interesting suggestion, but does he have any cult at all, rather than occurring as a monster and mythological figure?

As you note, Narangros seems to be a mythological collection of foes (i.e. the Bad Dogs).  I don't believe this is ever a "cult", but a set of masks that are worn by enemies during rituals. 

The mask/role could be taken on by Canis Chaos, Hell Hounds, Gagarth, Jajagappa, Hyena, Kang Rowl the Slinker, or even the neighboring Grey Dog clan. 

[coffeemancer]

39 minutes ago, Darius West said:

 I also think that for someone called the Wild Hunter, Gagarth seems to lack much in the way of hunting abilities. 

He hunts the most dangerous game... heroquesters

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, coffeemancer said:

He hunts the most dangerous game... heroquesters

Which will make life as a Gagarthi heroquester particularly interesting, because you can get pulled into most anything as an enemy.

[Darius West]

1 hour ago, coffeemancer said:

He hunts the most dangerous game... heroquesters

Just another sad example of Heroquester on Heroquester violence. 😉

[Doug]

7 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

but isnt everyone within your clan kin? people get their spouses from outside the clan to avoid incest, dont they?

No, I don't think Orlanthi care about incest. Ernalda doesn't like the lack of bonds between clans, but I don't think she cares about the sex.

And clans are not always related. In the Second Son initiation you are "kin, or as good as". When Colymar brought his people north, I doubt if evey last one of was related to each other. This is doubly true for specialized clans like the black spear.

[Joerg]

There aren't many children of Vadrus left, and those that are aren't known to cooperate well even with one another.

The biggest group of Vadrudi names known to us are the ancestors of the Triolini merfolk. It is possible that Kahar was a Vadrudi, too, but then he wooed Harantara - a behavior quite atypical to any offspring of Vadrus, more of a Storm Bull or Orlanth-like style.

Iphara, goddess of the murder fog, might be the closest ally to Gagarth. Molanni or her child don't really have anything to give or gain.

Valind's get like Thryk might cooperate in raids.

But overall, even his siblings are bad candidates for allies.

 

That leaves creatures of the Hunt. Brangbane sounds like a like-minded spirit.

[Akhôrahil]

On 7/11/2021 at 9:03 PM, Darius West said:

I think Gagarth gets a dishonor passion instead of honor, and can invoke it when doing bad things.

I had a powerful Gagarthi heroquester in my campaign, and I did give him a big Dishonor passion that he could use to do specifically dishonorable things. So he would essentially be obliged to break hospitality, and so on.