Settlement Income Table

[Boamvndvs]

I have written an article about the Settlement Income Table from Lordly Domains, 1999 p. 18. It is attached. Have the rules for lordly domains been revised since 1999 by the way?

 

Settlement_Income.pdf

Edited July 18, 2021 by Boamvndvs
Spelling error

[Morien]

Depends what you mean by 'revised'.

Book of the Manor introduced a new system for Manors.

Book of the Estate and Book of the Warlord introduced a new economy system usable for any size of a landholding, all the way from a £1 parcel to a £100000 Kingdom.

Neither of the two uses LD's POP, nor FOOD and COIN division.

[Boamvndvs]

I see, thanks. As far as I can see, the system from Lordly Domains can also handle large dominions. I don't know if it does it well, but kingdoms with large populations are possible. I will probably wait and see what the 6th edition comes up with.

[fulk]

I expect that the BoEstate and BoWarlord economics of 10L of land = 1 knight and 2 soldiers will remain the staple.  Personally, I liked the goods/food distinction in Nobles Book and Lordly Domains, but the 10L = 1 knight is super easy.

 

 

[Sir Alexios]

I have an excel spreadsheet for using Lordly Domains economic system. It is self calculating for things like court fees and harvest grades.

I didn't do all the work on this for the calculations it was a product of my former GM Alan Day. I have done some editing though to remove a few logic errors in the calculations.

The land sheet is the empty form and the vassal knight sheet is an example so you can see how it functions. Another example is an Estate Banneret.

LandSheet.xls pop2 manor.xls pop5 Estate.xls

[Boamvndvs]

Thank you, Sir Alexios, for the Excel sheets. I have worked to figure out the economics of my favorite fantasy dominion, and the Lordly Domains rules seem to make good sense. The rules have given realistic population numbers and forced me to invent many more small towns, which I think adds to the realism. I have noticed, however, that the Lord's portion is only part of a fief; the rest has to be delegated to one or more vassals. So whenever I tried to detail something, I was forced to first invent the sub-parts, and then their sub-parts! I ended up having to enter the fiefs and their populations into a relational database in order to sum up the population numbers on the different levels of the feudal hierarchy. Fun, but cumbersome.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Boamvndvs
Spelling error

[Sir Alexios]

For the spreadsheet when it comes down to what you as the overlord would get from them just place the pop of the vassal lands into, I believe B7 in the spreadsheet and it will auto-calculate the gifts and court fees owed by your vassals. Attached file is for a "Lord" banneret not an estate banneret.

So to determine the rough count for knights and soldiers knights minimally should match the pop number and soldiers should equal the pop X 5. That would be a low ball estimate especially for the more powerful lords such as Dukes, and Earls.

BanneretyLandSheet.xls

Edited July 30, 2021 by Sir Alexios

[Boamvndvs]

On 7/18/2021 at 6:23 PM, Morien said:

Depends what you mean by 'revised'.

Book of the Manor introduced a new system for Manors.

Book of the Estate and Book of the Warlord introduced a new economy system usable for any size of a landholding, all the way from a £1 parcel to a £100000 Kingdom.

Neither of the two uses LD's POP, nor FOOD and COIN division.

Has anyone tried to link population with the new economy system? After being away and coming back I appreciate the simpler system, but I would like to compute the income of an estate from its cultivated area (from which I can compute its population).

The examples from Book of the Estate show e.g. the number of employees of the estate and the production of the estate, but how many people in total live on the territory of the estate?

[Morien]

32 minutes ago, Boamvndvs said:

The examples from Book of the Estate show e.g. the number of employees of the estate and the production of the estate, but how many people in total live on the territory of the estate?

We can guess from two different directions (always keeping in mind that it can vary wildly depending on the local conditions and economics).

One data point is the statement that a typical PK manor of £10 has about 500 people associated with it. Assuming that the same population density would apply and total area would scale with the landholding income, it would imply that a £50 estate would have about 2500 people, altogether, in its geographical area.

The other point is looking at the total population of Logres (which should be closer to 1+ million, given the number of knights and demographics, the half a million would work for adults, but you need the kids, too), we can get a rough estimate of about the same ~400-500 people per knight. And since the estate supports 1 knight per £10, we can get 2000-2500 per £50 estate.

Add a fudge factor of 50% either way and you can probably argue anything from 1500 to 4000 for a particular estate.

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Morien

[Boamvndvs]

2 hours ago, Morien said:

We can guess from two different directions (always keeping in mind that it can vary wildly depending on the local conditions and economics).

One data point is the statement that a typical PK manor of £10 has about 500 people associated with it. Assuming that the same population density would apply and total area would scale with the landholding income, it would imply that a £50 estate would have about 2500 people, altogether, in its geographical area.

The other point is looking at the total population of Logres (which should be closer to 1+ million, given the number of knights and demographics, the half a million would work for adults, but you need the kids, too), we can get a rough estimate of about the same ~400-500 people per knight. And since the estate supports 1 knight per £10, we can get 2000-2500 per £50 estate.

Add a fudge factor of 50% either way and you can probably argue anything from 1500 to 4000 for a particular estate.

 

Thanks, Morien. Just out of curiosity: are those data points mentioned in either Book of the Estate or Book of the Warlord? (I bought both yesterday, but I did not find it using a search of "500").

I think I agree with income being proportional with the population. It is just contrary to Lordly Domains, where it was important for the population to be concentrated. In that supplement an additional 480 people (1 POP) around a new village gave 4£ extra income, but if the same 480 people moved close to an already big city, they would generate an extra income of 35£. That non-linearity could seem interesting if it was realistic, but I imagine it would make urbanisation the key too all wealth, and the Mongols were quite competent warlords after all.

 

 

[Morien]

58 minutes ago, Boamvndvs said:

Thanks, Morien. Just out of curiosity: are those data points mentioned in either Book of the Estate or Book of the Warlord? (I bought both yesterday, but I did not find it using a search of "500").

KAP 5.2, p. 77: "A village of about a hundred households is part of your manor." Household ~ 5 people, so about 500 people.

BoUther, p. 7: "Logres has about 500,000 total people". Hence my correction that this should be 'adult people', and the need to add ~ 750 000 kids for a total population of over 1 million. But 500 000 adults is roughly 250 000 household, so when divided by 2600 or so knights, you get about that 100 households from KAP 5.2.

There is a third way of calculating the population of an estate, which is taking the example estates in Book of the Estate and matching the mentioned settlements with the settlement sizes in p. 11. Like Boarshead Estate has 8 villages and 3 clusters. Taking about average numbers, this would be about 450 households, which is close enough to the other estimates (500 households, average) that I am happy with it. Granted, there is a lot of guesswork with the sizes, as there is a factor of 3 between the smallest village and the largest village, but at least that example with averages seems to work well enough.

58 minutes ago, Boamvndvs said:

I think I agree with income being proportional with the population. It is just contrary to Lordly Domains, where it was important for the population to be concentrated. In that supplement an additional 480 people (1 POP) around a new village gave 4£ extra income, but if the same 480 people moved close to an already big city, they would generate an extra income of 35£. That non-linearity could seem interesting if it was realistic, but I imagine it would make urbanisation the key too all wealth, and the Mongols were quite competent warlords after all.

Honestly, I think Lordly Domains makes it way too important to have towns. Towns are good for trading and specialized craftsmen, necessary even, but Lordly Domains takes that to an insane level. Like why do those extra 360 peasants suddenly be 10 times as productive than before? They are presumably doing the same type of farming as their villager cousins. I can understand that a bigger town would be maybe having higher taxes from tolls and such, and higher-value-added goods, so a bonus to those maybe, but x10 to food, too??? The table on page 18 is WAY out of whack.

BotE is much better, IMHO, giving a trade bonus to the income when you are near a market town, a port or a city.

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Morien

[Boamvndvs]

You are right. I swear fealty to the new economy system. And thanks a lot for providing the missing link to population numbers. (The Settlement Income Table from Lordly Domains prevented me from daring to assume that income and population were proportional).

[Boamvndvs]

I played around with some cultivated area percentages (attached).

Population.pdf