Desert Hospitality

[Bill the barbarian]

We know the Heortlings (hard to get over the old name, Orlanthi, but I do seem to remember most of the time... not bad for an old set-in-his ways grog...) are fanatics in their devotion to the nth degree of the concept of hospitality. What of the Praxian neighbours, surely they have concepts of hospitality, and I postulate of a more serious (yep, I said more.. than the Heortlings? Inconceivable) nature and with more clearcut consequences. Now, on the Blue Marble, hospitality is very much a matter of life and death in the desert. Very ritualized as well. Hospitality given; life’s can be saved, withheld... one may not be long for this realm. 

Any thoughts or insights about desert (or oasis, or even savannah) hospitality in Prax, out there in the hive mind?

 

[Akhôrahil]

Quoting Terry Pratchett, when in Jingo it's discussed why a character is called "71-hour Ahmed":

Quote

“So,” he said, as he rocked gently from side to side, “you may as well tell me. Why 71-hour Ahmed?” 

“He killed a man,” said Jabbar. 

“And D’regs object to a little thing like that?” 

“In the man’s own tent! When he had been his guest for nearly tree dace! If he had but waited an hour—” 

“Oh, I see. Definitely bad manners. Had the man done anything to deserve it?” 

“Nothing! Although...” 

“Yes?” 

“The man had killed El-Ysa.” The D’reg’s tone suggested that this wasn’t much of a mitigating circumstance, but that it ought to be mentioned out of 
completeness. 

“Who was she?” 

“El-Ysa was a village. He poisoned a well. There had been a dispute over religion,” he added. “One thing led to another.. .but even so, to break the 
tradition of hospitality...” 

“Yes, I can see that’s a terrible thing. Almost...impolite.” 

“The hour was important. Some things should not be done.” 

“You’re right there, at least.” 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Bill the barbarian]

And now for something completely different...

Serious answers in a Bill the barbarian Joint!

Edited July 18, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Byll]

The father of the young Bison in Heroquest Voices said -

Quote

How do we deal with others?

You can trust everyone in your family and clan. We always help each other in times of need. If all your beasts die or are taken, if you are crippled, or if your wife or children are taken as slaves, your people will aid and provide for you. Other Bison clans are our friends, but they only have to help us against Chaos or when we’re in big trouble, and you must always pay them back. We’re better than they are, but we all have the same Founder.

Watch out for people from other tribes. Although they follow Waha’s Way, they are sneaky, and they all want to steal your animals and enslave or kill you. It is only safe to talk to them at the Paps, when you are strongest, or when all the Dedra have allied under a khan of khans to fight a great enemy, such as when Jaldon Toothmaker led us to destroy Pavis and raid the Sunset Lands called Dragon Pass.

People from outside the Greatlands are our prey. Their weakness is good only for robbing. Never trust them, lie to them if you want, kill them and take their goods if you wish. They don’t know Waha’s Way at all, and that means they aren’t proper humans, even lower than the despicable morocanth, who are people even though they look like beasts

It doesn't sound like hospitality extends beyond the Animal Nomad tribe.Demonstrating kinship would probably still apply, and the Sables and Ostriches practise matrilineal exogamy, while the rest are patrilineal. Kinship through the incoming spouse probably still counts for something, but not as much as that through the resident party. Everybody probably welcomes a Chalana Arroy nomad, but there aren't many of them wandering the plains and they may be regarded as holy innocents rather than adult tribespeople. I guess Stormbull gangs have their own customs, but I doubt whether 'hospitality' is the right term for them.

[Bill the barbarian]

Yeah, that is how I see it, but there is a trope in our world of incredible hospitality in a nomadic tent, and coffee seems to play a large roll. Beautiful women dancing in diaphanous silks, large gifts being given in a very Orlanthi way. Opposed by incredible cruelty if the dice go the other way. Now, I am not saying the lozenge has to correspond with our realities or prejudice, but I was thinking and wondering why the animal nomads were as stingy in hospitality as the starving oasis dwellers have to be.  

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Between violence and hatred to strangers, cities and horses, fairly routine (but pragmatic) wartime alliances with Broo, and general nastiness, I find little for Heortlings to "like" about Praxians.  Not sure how Heortlings should react to Argrath's Army when it arrives in 1627, especially should anything go awry.  Hoipefully they mainly stay north of The Creek.

"Argrath's Army is here to stay
Argrath's Army are on their way
And I would rather be anywhere else
Than here today"

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Not sure how Heortlings should react to Argrath's Army when it arrives in 1627, especially should anything go awry.

Thousands of Storm Bulls, all in one place, together.  What could possibly go wrong?

[svensson]

An old quote from TSR's al'Qadim setting discussing hospitality among the Enlightened [the Persian /Arab cultural analogue for the setting]....

"Guests are like fish. After three days, both of them smell."

😁🤣

[svensson]

21 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Thousands of Storm Bulls, all in one place, together.  What could possibly go wrong?

Give them a rousing speech, point them at Devil's Marsh and wave bye-bye.

"Have fun storming the castle!"

Edited July 21, 2021 by svensson

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Thousands of Storm Bulls, all in one place, together.  What could possibly go wrong?

This!

Spoiler

 

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Thousands of Storm Bulls, all in one place, together.  What could possibly go wrong?

You usual have some great insight. So are we doomed to boorish ways in Prax, or is the hospitality secreted away and only given to ones own away from prying eyes. If so, we are still at a loss cause I have seen no sign of it!

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Shiningbrow]

Perhaps hospitality is only offered to those who follow the appropriate formalities? Much as many places expect.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Perhaps hospitality is only offered to those who follow the appropriate formalities? Much as many places expect.

Quite possible, indeed,

and I wonder if this is indeed the case.

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Quite possible, indeed,

and I wonder if this is indeed the case.

Just a thought... Mechanically, that'd be a Customs (Homeland) roll... Obviously. 

Make the roll and you're safe. Fail and you die!

(ETA: which makes me think that the 25% base is far too low! By 20 years old or so, as our starting adventurers are), they should be as familiar with their local customs as with their local language, and so I'd suggest a base of 50%)

Edited July 21, 2021 by Shiningbrow

[Bill the barbarian]

See the modifiers... can’t recall if they are with the skill or by reputation or... but there are mods based on familiarity of area. Also there is one fly in the ointment here, Remember that a skill can be ruled automatic if it is obviously... automatic.

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

(ETA: which makes me think that the 25% base is far too low! By 20 years old or so, as our starting adventurers are), they should be as familiar with their local customs as with their local language, and so I'd suggest a base of 50%)

Note that you roll only if it is needed :

That means (in my play) a character who is not familiar with a culture would roll for any situation when a "local" (for at least one year)  would roll only for specific reason

any praxian would know the greetings ceremony in prax, they don't need any roll to enter a friendly / neutral camp. But if they want to change their relationship with another clan / tribe / local leader / chaman / etc... they may have to roll their custom (or use their custom to improve their orate for example)

in the same time, an esrolian may have to roll in any situation, the failure would depends on the company :

 - if there are any praxians in the group, the failure would just give riduculous joke and some malus for the next relationships

- if there are no praxian in the group, ...

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

So are we doomed to boorish ways in Prax, or is the hospitality secreted away and only given to ones own away from prying eyes. If so, we are still at a loss cause I have seen no sign of it!

Argrath has a fix for that - he's taking them all to Sartar!

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

See the modifiers... can’t recall if they are with the skill or by reputation or... but there are mods based on familiarity of area. Also there is one fly in the ointment here, Remember that a skill can be ruled automatic if it is obviously... automatic.

 

I'm not seeing a logical difference between the language and the culture here.... That's my point. Your argument should apply to both skills

If, however, the Culture was by clan or tribe, rather than a Homeland, then it would make more sense.

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

See the modifiers... can’t recall if they are with the skill or by reputation or... but there are mods based on familiarity of area. Also there is one fly in the ointment here, Remember that a skill can be ruled automatic if it is obviously... automatic.

You're thinking of Homeland Lore, which has a list of modifiers vs. Customs (Homeland) which does not.

You could potentially use Homeland Lore as a modifier to your Customs roll, but I'd probably rule in that case that you are drawing upon some specific event from the past as your argument for/against how to behave.  You could equally apply a Rune (e.g. Harmony) to your Customs roll or a Passion (e.g. Loyalty (White Bull)) or a Communications skill.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

You could potentially use Homeland Lore as a modifier to your Customs roll, but I'd probably rule in that case that you are drawing upon some specific event from the past as your argument for/against how to behave.  You could equally apply a Rune (e.g. Harmony) to your Customs roll or a Passion (e.g. Loyalty (White Bull)) or a Communications skill.

Yes  knew if it was not in Customs it would not be perfect fit, but it should still work fine as you point out. 

[Darius West]

On 7/21/2021 at 12:06 PM, jajagappa said:

Thousands of Storm Bulls, all in one place, together.  What could possibly go wrong?

Most of the problems can be solved with strict discipline, and judicious use of Detect Chaos and Befuddle spells.  Strict discipline so that fumbled detect chaos skill rolls are deferred up the chain of command, Detect chaos for perfect verification of actual chaos, and befuddle to insure that would-be berserkers who break the rules are all buffed up with nowhere to go. 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Darius West

[MOB]

On 7/19/2021 at 5:15 AM, Bill the barbarian said:

Any thoughts or insights about desert (or oasis, or even savannah) hospitality in Prax, out there in the hive mind?

I would recommend Wilfrid Thesiger's masterpiece Arabian Sands. He was the first European to cross the Empty Quarter and visit the Liwa Oasis (he did it in disguise which was a great effort given he was an upper class Englishman who was 6'4" with blue eyes). Thesiger vividly describes Bedu hospitality, and the challenges of navigating your way through an incredibly hostile environment and tribes who distrusted or (usually) hated each other. The rules of hospitality in the deep desert are sacrosanct and intricate. I would best summarise them by saying it was possible to be hospitable without being friendly. Here is a telling excerpt:

“Gaunt men in rags and hungry-looking children had greeted me, and bade me welcome with the sonorous phrases of the desert. Later they had set a great dish before me, rice heaped round a sheep which they had slaughtered, over which my host poured liquid golden butter until it flowed down on to the sand; and when I protested, saying 'Enough! Enough!', had answered that I was a hundred times welcome. Their lavish hospitality had always made me uncomfortable, for I had known that as a result of it they would go hungry for days. Yet when I left them they had almost convinced me that I had done them a kindness by staying with them”

BTW, this all happened in 1948. Some of the people he encountered, the first European they had ever seen, would in their lifetime have been able to drive on a four lane freeway from the Liwa Oasis to Abu Dhabi, which in 1948 would have been three week's travel by camel. During my time in the UAE I visited Liwa many times for work (we had a campus there) and holidays, an amazing place. The highlight of the year is their Camel Beauty Contest.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, MOB said:

The rules of hospitality in the deep desert are sacrosanct and intricate. I would best summarise them by saying it was possible to be hospitable without being friendly. Here is a telling excerpt:

Thanks MOB, that is exactly  (precisely) what I was thinking of. I hope I ask you one for one more bit of info? 

In your opinion can this fit in Glorantha well, do you think would applie in the Wastes and other arid areas of what was once Genert’s Garden? 

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, MOB said:

I would best summarise them by saying it was possible to be hospitable without being friendly.

That’s when you need the institution. It’s like with freedom of speech - supporting speech you like or being hospitable to your friends comes naturally; it’s when it’s something or someone you don’t like that the institution steps in to regulate.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[MOB]

55 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Thanks MOB, that is exactly  (precisely) what I was thinking of. I hope I ask you one for one more bit of info? 

In your opinion can this fit in Glorantha well, do you think would applie in the Wastes and other arid areas of what was once Genert’s Garden? 

100%!

10 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

That’s when you need the institution. It’s like with freedom of speech - supporting speech you like or being hospitable to your friends comes naturally; it’s when it’s something or someone you don’t like that the institution steps in to regulate.

Thesiger tells a story of how he and a couple of Bedu companions were deep in the desert and hadn't eaten anything for a several days when they finally managed to catch a very scrawny hare. They were cooking it on a campfire and salivating with anticipation for the meagre fare when out of nowhere several Bedu from another tribe appeared, and approached indicating they had no hostile intent. Under the laws of hospitality Thesiger (disguised as an Arab) and his companions had to give the visitors all their food, and make polite conversation while they watched them eat every last morsel. Showing they were famished would be a major loss of face, and refusing to share would be probably have ended in violence.

Edited July 24, 2021 by MOB