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After a couple of searches, it appears there's not been a full thread on what the sorcerer occupation should have (if it should even exist, versus the apprentice sorcerer).

But what skills should they have? How many spells in the list? How many Runes and Techniques?

I'd presume we'd have to start with the Philosopher, and start modifying that...

Obviously, Read/Write is important... So 30% there. Philosophers are part-time sorcerers, yet get 1 spell at 20%, and 2 others at 10%. I'd suggest that the full sorcerer get either a 30% spell, or two 15%. Library Use is a definite... No Orate *though (Perhaps Irate :p)

(*sorcerer-priests wound, though.. )

I'd probably also consider giving them Spirit Lore, as a Knowledge skill (or, at least, a Lore option for this).

I believe some out there would suggest Alchemy as a staple for Gloranthan sorcerers, but that's not my vision.

I'm keeping the 3 POW worth of Runes/Techniques, for "balance" (ūü§ģ)

Any thoughts??

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I'd base it on the standard requirements for a rune priest, obviously changing some requirements (page 276). I believe it's much harder to start as a sorcerer.

Be an initiate  member of the cult school / whatever it's called, in good standing with the temple priests hierarchy and possess at least one mastered Rune affinity shared with the deity school with a rating of at least 90%, and either a Loyalty (temple school) or a Devotion (deity)  Loyalty (Master) Passion of at least 50%.

Possess at least 5 Rune points dedicated to the god School spells at 90%. Have a POW of 18 or higher.

Have a skill of at least 50% in Worship (deity) meditate and in four cult school skills.

Have a vacancy at the temple school as determined by the gamemaster.

 

Now looking at the Priest occupation, you can only be one if you fulfil the requirements, otherwise you are an assistant (not quite) priest. So creating an apprentice sorcerer would be the obvious solution. Note that there's no real relationship between occupation priest and rune priest. so just use the philosopher occupation as is:

Three spells (you can buy more)

Occupational Skills: Read/Write (any) +50%, (Sorcery spell) +10%, Orate +25%, Lore (any) +30%, (Sorcery spell) +20%, Library Use +10%, (Sorcery spell) +10%, Lore (any) +10%, Meditate +20%.

add on the priest extras:

Standard of Living: Noble.

Base Income: Variable (depends on temple’s school's resources but most priests sorceroers have at least five hides of land).

Favored Passions: Loyalty (school) or   Loyalty (Master)

Ransom: 1000 L.

Edited by David Scott
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personaly, i don't consider there is a need of sorcerer occupation:

 

sorcerer as user of sorcery ==>  you can be what you want (scribe, philosopher, ...) of course if you have an occupation without sorcery skill, it would be difficult to improve your sorcery skills. So I consider philosopher occupation as the best one. And if you imagine your character was a student of any school, add some loyalty as described by David

 

sorcerer as "zaburi" (aka religious leader of malkioni) mmm ... I m waiting for some official publication ūüėõ¬† to identify what is a "sorcerer"

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On 7/19/2021 at 2:26 PM, Shiningbrow said:

After a couple of searches, it appears there's not been a full thread on what the sorcerer occupation should have (if it should even exist, versus the apprentice sorcerer).

But what skills should they have? How many spells in the list? How many Runes and Techniques?

I'd presume we'd have to start with the Philosopher, and start modifying that...

Obviously, Read/Write is important... So 30% there. Philosophers are part-time sorcerers, yet get 1 spell at 20%, and 2 others at 10%. I'd suggest that the full sorcerer get either a 30% spell, or two 15%. Library Use is a definite... No Orate *though (Perhaps Irate :p)

(*sorcerer-priests wound, though.. )

I'd probably also consider giving them Spirit Lore, as a Knowledge skill (or, at least, a Lore option for this).

I believe some out there would suggest Alchemy as a staple for Gloranthan sorcerers, but that's not my vision.

I'm keeping the 3 POW worth of Runes/Techniques, for "balance" (ūü§ģ)

Any thoughts??

The deal with the current edition of RQG is that it is pretty specific to the unfolding Hero Wars in Dragon Pass.  In this part of the world, you don't get Zzaburi sorcerers like one does in the West, but Philosophers are far more free than Zzaburi would ever be.  Zzaburi in most sects are educated to be specialist sorcerers from the age of their apprenticeship, except amongst the Hrestoli, who have comparatively few Sorcerers as most never make it that far in their meritocratic caste progression.

The main traditions of Sorcery in this region come from the City of 10,000 Magicians, which was built by the EWF, but is now in Lunar hands, as well as the God Learner alterations to the cults of Lhankor Mhy and Chalana Arroy in the Second Age, and finally the Western invaders of the Holy Country such as Richard the Tiger Hearted, the Marcher Barons, and the Aeolian "Heresy" of the Heortlands.   The cult of Pavis also has the mysterious cult of Iffinbix, and the Upland Marsh includes the Necromancer Delecti who served both the God Learners and the EWF in the Second Age.  The Lunars have also inherited Sorcery via Carmania and have incorporated it into a specialist Lunar art, as well as weaponizing it into their magical colleges.

The difference between the study of sorcery in Dragon Pass and the West is that in Dragon Pass there isn't the religious formality of the West in its caste restriction, but there is more cultural prejudice against sorcery, with its practitioners being called Meldek (soulless) by theist bigots.  As a result, there is no professional class of sorcerers in the West per se, and the lore is harder to come by, but lacks the restrictions on sorcery that you will find in the West.  Many sorcerers will form into the Sartar Magical Union during the Hero Wars, using their spells in combinations with those of shamans and priests to ruthlessly min-max power-game over the course of this 34 year war.

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11 hours ago, Darius West said:

The deal with the current edition of RQG is that it is pretty specific to the unfolding Hero Wars in Dragon Pass.  In this part of the world, you don't get Zzaburi sorcerers like one does in the West, but Philosophers are far more free than Zzaburi would ever be.  Zzaburi in most sects are educated to be specialist sorcerers from the age of their apprenticeship, except amongst the Hrestoli, who have comparatively few Sorcerers as most never make it that far in their meritocratic caste progression.

The main traditions of Sorcery in this region come from the City of 10,000 Magicians, which was built by the EWF, but is now in Lunar hands, as well as the God Learner alterations to the cults of Lhankor Mhy and Chalana Arroy in the Second Age, and finally the Western invaders of the Holy Country such as Richard the Tiger Hearted, the Marcher Barons, and the Aeolian "Heresy" of the Heortlands.   The cult of Pavis also has the mysterious cult of Iffinbix, and the Upland Marsh includes the Necromancer Delecti who served both the God Learners and the EWF in the Second Age.  The Lunars have also inherited Sorcery via Carmania and have incorporated it into a specialist Lunar art, as well as weaponizing it into their magical colleges.

The difference between the study of sorcery in Dragon Pass and the West is that in Dragon Pass there isn't the religious formality of the West in its caste restriction, but there is more cultural prejudice against sorcery, with its practitioners being called Meldek (soulless) by theist bigots.  As a result, there is no professional class of sorcerers in the West per se, and the lore is harder to come by, but lacks the restrictions on sorcery that you will find in the West.  Many sorcerers will form into the Sartar Magical Union during the Hero Wars, using their spells in combinations with those of shamans and priests to ruthlessly min-max power-game over the course of this 34 year war.

Sure (I'm not 100% familiar with all you write, but about 85%)...

I started this thread because of the other one on the Aeolian sorcerer.

Do you agree with @David Scott's interpretation above? I don't, because it would mean an apprentice sorcerer would be almost identical to the Philosopher, except for the income. As I mentioned above, I don't think the sorcerer needs 2 random lores and orate. I also disagree with the income and ransom... Should be much lower for an apprentice.

Edited by Shiningbrow
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Do I agree with David Scott's interpretation?

Well, I have another viewpoint, just based on reading the texts.  And I thank you for the motivation to study the sorcery chapter of the RQiG rules.  This is what I read:

RQiG occupations pp.63-73 are part of the six cultures outlined on pp.24-27 and 103-133 of RQiG.  These are archetype jobs.  In the limited geographic area that is so defined, there is no usual employment as "sorceror", any more than there is a job of 'rune magic user' or 'spirit magic user".  There is employment as a "philosopher", or as a "scribe".  

"Philosopher' appears to be a little valued occupation, since its Ransom is 150L, less than a farmer's or a fisher's ransom.  This implies to me that Diogenes is the model,  rather than the Zzaburi.

Just as another adventurer will start with Farming skill and never use it as an adventurer, so the philosopher will start with Orate skill - and will have occasion to use it as an adventurer.  It's character background,  I don't have any heartburn over it.

As I read RQiG, it is implied that people from those six cultures will not have a career path that easily leads them to top level sorcery knowledge, nor full time employment doing sorcery.  This implies to me that no starting character from the six cultures will know more sorcery than the Lankhor Mhy cult  or the "philosopher" employment provides.  

(Lankhor Mhy scribes may learn sorcery, but the brief cult writeup in RQiG just says "the initiate is taught  to master the Truth Rune and the technique of Command" and by default the GM is to determine the availability of further teaching and teachers in his or her campaign.  The list of LM sorcery spells taught is short.   The game mechanic for achieving mastery of other runes or techniques is explained as an INT+POW roll p.384.   I myself would require some undefined schooling before making that roll, but there is nothing official to back me up; I am curious about what you think.     We can't get anything from the LM writeup in Cult Compendium because that is an RQ2 book and sorcery only came in with RQ3.  We all await the forthcoming gods book.).

If you want your character to come from outside the six cultures defined in RQiG, such as Malkioni or Aeolians = people coming from Fronela or God Forgot; or from the Lunar schools of magic in Peloria, then

[1] There are  references for the Malkioni and Aeolians on how to get the masteries and the techniques before adulthood, essentially in character generation,  pp.388-389 of RQiG; not so for the Lunars.  Techniques and masteries are "not skills".   I don't see any more references for learning the sorcery spells, which are skills, even though no spaces for them are provided on the character sheet.  Nor do I see what the starting skill would be if the sorceror creates new spells. 

[2] All the additional canon you have to go on for those cultures is the Guide to Glorantha, which is an atlas and encyclopedia but not rules.

[3] You are getting into area in which Chaosium has not yet published a culture book.  Jonstown Compendium does include fan writeups of the West, but not being Chaosium material they may be superseded. 

In this situation neither your nor David Scott's interpretation can be 'right' or 'wrong". 

There are many unknowns about sorcery which would cause me not to allow starting characters as working sorcerors in my campaign because frankly I don't know how to GM it.  I will continue to watch and see how how those unknowns are getting filled in.  Thanks for the discussion.

 

Edited by Squaredeal Sten
spelling, my nemesis.
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My interpretation comes from a player, playing a Lunar sorcerer. We quickly realised that an apprentice style occupation was needed as becoming a full sorcerer wasn't possible from the start. We looked at HQG for some guidelines too - believing Mage to be a full sorcerer. Until any official rules appear, whatever you decide should work at your table. We were pretty happy with that. FYI, the lores that were picked were Spell Lore and Lunar Lore in place of (school/cult lore). 

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7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I don't see any more references for learning the sorcery spells, which are skills, even though no spaces for them are provided on the character sheet. 

???

P389-390... Under the section Learning New Spells.

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Nor do I see what the starting skill would be if the sorceror creates new spells. 

As a rough guess, the same as researching a spell, as per above citation - 1D6 + Magic modifier.

Your points about it being Dragon Pass oriented are quite valid, but that's sort of the point of the thread.. Many of the occupations would be the same regardless of the area you're in. Some would have minor adjustments. Would you think that an Aeolian sorcerer apprentice would have a somewhat different skill selection to a Zzaburi or Lunar apprentice?

It ultimately comes down to - What basic skills would they need, and in what proportion?

 

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18 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Would you think that an Aeolian sorcerer apprentice would have a somewhat different skill selection to a Zzaburi or Lunar apprentice?

I think you have to keep in mind what a "sorcerer" is being apprenticed for whether in an Aeolian or Western/Malkioni community.  They are the connection/link to the Invisible God and lead the worship of the Invisible God.  The appropriate occupation for a "sorcerer" in most of these communities then is Priest.  What would be different are the "Cult" skills and those would largely equate to their Zzaburi caste skills.  You'd still get Worship, Meditate, Cult/Caste Lore.  Does the culture emphasize Sing or Dance?  Probably less likely.  Do they need Orate to lead their Community?  Possibly, but I'd probably add in additions to spells here that are important to the Community.

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8 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

even though no spaces for them are provided on the character sheet. 

I've a drop in you can try, it covers, the spirit magic (as no sorcerer would waste free INT on it) and rune magic sections either real world cut and paste or digital:1919312375_Sorcerydropin.jpg.ae1a940fb399e708f1db22be5356b475.jpg

Fo fancy work:

Sorcery drop in.psd

Edited by David Scott

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7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I don't see any more references for learning the sorcery spells, which are skills

Sorcery spells fall under the Magic category, they start at zero (00) and as a zero point skill, can have no category bonus added until at least 1% (per page 163). They can be increased by training, research, and experience, with the easiest way to learn a new one from from a teacher per page 389. The initial training gives D6% and I also allow 3%(not d6-1 or 2% per page 416). My players cast their magic at any opportunity for the chance of an experience check. They also realised that there is a skill bottleneck with read and write, which can't be increase by experience. It's easy to have your spells capped by your R/W not keeping up with your seasonal experience ticks (3% experience vs 2% training or 1% research). Both sorcerers spent every season in R/W training, fortunately training requires no experience roll. With the right money and timing you can reach 100% R/W in 50 seasons! 

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52 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Sorcery spells fall under the Magic category, they start at zero (00) and as a zero point skill, can have no category bonus added until at least 1% (per page 163). They can be increased by training, research, and experience, with the easiest way to learn a new one from from a teacher per page 389. The initial training gives D6% and I also allow 3%(not d6-1 or 2% per page 416). My players cast their magic at any opportunity for the chance of an experience check. They also realised that there is a skill bottleneck with read and write, which can't be increase by experience. It's easy to have your spells capped by your R/W not keeping up with your seasonal experience ticks (3% experience vs 2% training or 1% research). Both sorcerers spent every season in R/W training, fortunately training requires no experience roll. With the right money and timing you can reach 100% R/W in 50 seasons! 

In my games I have speed training and checks up to happen weekly instead of seasonally which gets rid of these bottlenecks. 

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12 hours ago, David Scott said:

Both sorcerers spent every season in R/W training, fortunately training requires no experience roll. With the right money and timing you can reach 100% R/W in 50 seasons! 

What was their starting value?

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4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

What was their starting value?

IIRC, they both juggled their RW so it was higher than their best spell, which was about 40%. One was a Lunar cultist, so we used Irrippi Ontor as the basis (in the 2019 Cult's Preview), for Read/Write New Pelorian +20%.

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If the rules allow to for a starting character to be a Priest, Shaman, or a Rune Lord there should be a way to have a reasonable Sorcerer at the start as well. With the current rules that is not the case. I hope it gets rectified when the "Full Sorcery" rules are published. 

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34 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

If the rules allow to for a starting character to be a Priest, Shaman, or a Rune Lord there should be a way to have a reasonable Sorcerer at the start as well. With the current rules that is not the case. I hope it gets rectified when the "Full Sorcery" rules are published. 

A sorcerer is anyone who uses sorcery. Do you mean a professional sorcerer? There are basically two options in the core rules - be a scribe of Lhankor Mhy and you get to be a sorcerer. Or be a weird philosopher and learn sorcery.

Problem solved.

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38 minutes ago, Jeff said:

A sorcerer is anyone who uses sorcery. Do you mean a professional sorcerer? There are basically two options in the core rules - be a scribe of Lhankor Mhy and you get to be a sorcerer. Or be a weird philosopher and learn sorcery.

Problem solved.

I mean Professional sorcerer. I know there are options for part time dabblers in the core rules. 

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4 hours ago, Godlearner said:

I mean Professional sorcerer.

but what would be the tasks of a "professional sorcerer" (if not religious ) ?

in dragon pass I see maybe lunar military support ? I would use philosopher for that too (battle lore is a good candidate then).

I m not sure you will meet a lot of "sorcerers" selling their art on these barbarians homelands ? The competition with local" magic" market leaders (priests and shamans) is too hard (and too dangerous)

 

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1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I m not sure you will meet a lot of "sorcerers" selling their art on these barbarians homelands ? The competition with local" magic" market leaders (priests and shamans) is too hard (and too dangerous)

Sure, you would see some Arlaten type situations, but there is a need for long term magic in all kinds of areas, does not need to be military.

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4 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Sure, you would see some Arlaten type situations, but there is a need for long term magic in all kinds of areas, does not need to be military.

E.g., long-lasting lighting, heating (or cooling). A merchant who can access a Preserve Item could make a killing with foodstuffs to distant (or not so) lands. Super fresh (and chilled) Apple Lane apples should sell awesomely in Nochet. (Add in a good spell for improving Bargain, and you're set for life)

And I'm surprised that the Jonstown Library relies on anti-fire enchantments, rather than judicious use of Call Light, especially since the latter is of much higher quality (and luminescence) than torches or lanterns)... And doesn't smoke. (Although, obviously, you'd want anti-fire spells at the ready anyway).

 

Which makes me wonder... Given that Issaries (in particular) has no issues with Sorcery, is there any reason a starting merchant couldn't start with a bit of sorcery? Transfer a Rune Point or 2 (or just sacrifice the POW) for the Runes and Techniques, and put a couple of 10/25% into spells.

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8 hours ago, Godlearner said:

 there is a need for long term magic in all kinds of areas, does not need to be military.

yes that's why priests have extension and rituals¬† ūüėČ, you need something warm go visit Lodril/Gusbran/etc.. you want to save your food or anything, give one cow or two and gain "preserve food"¬† or "preserve wealth" (red book p69) etc..

I fully agree there is a need of long term (and flexible) magic in dragon pass. And sorcery is probably the best way for that, other things being equal.

but remember that (or maybe it is only in my glorantha ? in that case sorry to the thread pollution) we are in dragon pass, a region where ancestors and gods "satisfaction" are the main points.

  • Your ancestors will reject you if you use sorcery (by yourself or with a supplier) because when they lived they did not use it
  • Your gods (or your priests...) will reject you because you try to bypass their power

For sure a local power using sorcery may have a great advantage if it succeed to "negociate" with the tradition. But what I think is there is no official power using sorcery (outside the LM cult boundaries and "protection") because no one expect to succeed this bargain (or want to try, or trust sorcery).

That is my main point about the sorcery : 

  • not a rule issue,
  • not a gameplay issue,
  • but a background issue: the dragon pass is filled of "scared" barbarians who reject sorcery

And that's why playing a sorcerer coul be very interesting, not because the power (at the start at least) but because it is a social challenge: you have no room here, and if you show that you are a sorcerer, you are a weirdo, maybe ridiculous, maybe dangerous

 

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Which makes me wonder... Given that Issaries (in particular) has no issues with Sorcery, is there any reason a starting merchant couldn't start with a bit of sorcery?

Issaries and LM are very close : I would propose a double initiation, allowing your Issaries merchant to use sorcery in the "only good way". Then the only issue is what about spells needed by the merchant but not provided by LM as RAW: create the spell, imagine a sect(ion) in the temple searching for supply support spells, add a loyalty passion to it, and that's good.

 

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Transfer a Rune Point or 2 (or just sacrifice the POW) for the Runes and Techniques, and put a couple of 10/25% into spells.

you are close to my house rule characteristics, how to manage the rune pool (that's said, I did not talk about sorcery POW sacrifice but that's exactly the same way than runespell/ runepool) and gain cult skill when you start with 2 cults

 

Edited by French Desperate WindChild
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16 hours ago, Godlearner said:

if the rules allow to for a starting character to be a Priest, Shaman, or a Rune Lord

Have you tried to make a priest adventurer? Although it can be done, it's not easy and the results make you a poor example of the priesthood. For starters, you need to have a POW of 20, so you can spend two points to get to the five rune points required (and stay at 18).

16 hours ago, Godlearner said:

there should be a way to have a reasonable Sorcerer at the start as well. With the current rules that is not the case.

That assumes that the game is balanced and it clearly isn't. 

16 hours ago, Godlearner said:

I hope it gets rectified when the "Full Sorcery" rules are published. 

I think you mean cultural sorcery rules, each culture that uses sorcery is going to have experts that work in different ways. 

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29 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I think you mean cultural sorcery rules, each culture that uses sorcery is going to have experts that work in different ways. 

I was thinking that when reading @French Desperate WindChild's post regarding cultures.

I'd be fairly certain no LM would ever use the term "sorcery" in Theyalan, to describe what they do. It's a shorthand (God Learner-ey) thing that we players do. 

So, LM "sorcerers" will be using their own (possibly unique) term to describe their god's manifestations of power... Which I'd expect all Orlanthis to be aware of and tolerant towards. 

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The odd Lhankor Mhy user of sorcery will have his rune magic in addition to his small selection of sorcery spells. The cult is involved in many a craft that relies on knowledge, too, and the post of a guild sorcerer may go along with that of the scribe for that guild. These guys aren't supposed to be versatile, so the sharp focus that RQG forces onto a character using sorcery is in keeping with my expectations.

The literacy requirement makes every sorcerer a worshiper (though not necessarily initiate) of Lhankor Mhy. Even if western script should differ from the Theyalan scripts, as a knowable script it falls into the domain of the bearded one. Given the likelihood of a connection between Lhankor Mhy and Tadenit and the long productive relationship between the cult and the God Learners, I doubt there are any libraries of Lhankor Mhy that don't know and teach western script and at least one of their languages (possibly an ancient dialect). With the literacy requirement for Argan Argar cultists and the long reign of the Only Old One, a similar relationship for Darktongue may be assumed, allowing Arkati to remain unnoticed with some knowledge of both these non-native scripts.

 

My expectation is not quite upheld when it comes to sorcerers providing for the needs of a less specialized congregation trading the magic they offer in the sorcerous Worship Invisible God for magical aid and protection. Not much of a problem if you have a small cabal of sorcerers from slightly different traditions which may have enough expertise to deal with an assortment of magical challenges, but problematic if one sorcerer and maybe his apprentices are all that you have within reasonable reach.

I see a significant difference between the grimoire sorcerers that we encountered in Hero Wars through Questworlds Glorantha, where a sorcerer had access to a reasonable selection of spells associated with that grimoire and (over time) a few other spells acquired or developed on his own, independent from his original education, and the sorcerers created under the rules of RQG.

The grimoires provided something similar to the common rune spells that are shared by (most) rune levels, narrower in scope, but still a selection of magics that a sorcerer had a reasonable access to.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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57 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'd be fairly certain no LM would ever use the term "sorcery" in Theyalan, to describe what they do. It's a shorthand (God Learner-ey) thing that we players do.

The same can be said for other magical practices. A Sartarite would say "I'm calling in the clouds, Thunderbolt that guy", a praxian "Use heal on his leg, cast protection on me", a Lhankor Mhy initiate would say "I will perform Logical Clarity, I will Identify the Otherworld Entity" No one is going to say "cast Rune / Spirit / Sorcery magics. Of all the groups, a Lhankor Mhy cultist is the most likely to use the defined term Sorcery. A Sartarite would just describe Lhankor Mhy magic as just that "Can you use your Lhankor Mhy magics to help us here". 

57 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, LM "sorcerers" will be using their own (possibly unique) term to describe their god's manifestations of power... Which I'd expect all Orlanthis to be aware of and tolerant towards. 

Sartarites aren't bothered by sorcery except when used by the enemy or cultures they fear. "Those Lunars are using their ungodly magics again, The God Learners used evil magic"

Aeolians (orlanthi) use it alongside Orlanth worship, so it's clearly not an issue. See 

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