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Sorcerer occupation


Shiningbrow

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On 7/21/2021 at 1:58 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Do you agree with @David Scott's interpretation above? I don't, because it would mean an apprentice sorcerer would be almost identical to the Philosopher, except for the income. As I mentioned above, I don't think the sorcerer needs 2 random lores and orate. I also disagree with the income and ransom... Should be much lower for an apprentice.

The idea of the apprentice sorcerer comes as an artifact from RQ3.  They were also really weak in comparison to other types of magic user, being extremely reliant on the ritual mechanics of the RQ3 system in order to cast spells at all, but that was what an apprentice needed to do to get good through repetition.  Of course you also had the other ranks of sorcery, apprentice, assistant, adept, master etc. but this didn't really fit with Glorantha as a setting at all.  RQ3 was predicated on the idea of an ancient Europe more like Ars Magica's Mythic Europe (Except classical period not medieval), but one that was never fleshed out in any detail, except perhaps in the Vikings supplement.  The fact is, Zzaburi don't have apprentices, assistants, adepts or masters, which are based on a European guild system, but perhaps something based more closely on monasticism?  This might apply (just) to the city states of Lake Safelster in Ralios, where guilds are strong, but not in the major feudal parts of the West. I think we can say with certainty that this system shouldn't apply at all to the way sorcery is practiced in the Holy Country and Dragon Pass, as those institutions simply don't exist in those more Eastern areas.

In terms of skills, the philosopher occupation (RQG p70) is the only one that allows for learning sorcery, but a philosopher is NOT an apprentice sorcerer, they are a philosopher and that means a person who loves to learn and ponders the deeper questions of existence, not merely a magical craftsman.  As such, the lores are altogether appropriate, as is the orate skill (for purposes of argument and educating).  A philosopher is also their own master, which is fitting for a sorcerer outside the Zzaburi model, as one would find in the Theist lands of the East.  I would argue that apprentice sorcerers are not Gloranthan at all as an idea.

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5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:
  • Your ancestors will reject you if you use sorcery (by yourself or with a supplier) because when they lived they did not use it
  • Your gods (or your priests...) will reject you because you try to bypass their power

Aeolians and Stygians prove it overwise. 

 

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

That assumes that the game is balanced and it clearly isn't. 

So what? We already see that the sorcery is nerfed. 

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but a background issue: the dragon pass is filled of "scared" barbarians who reject sorcery

And it will continue to be so, as its been the excuse for at least the last 40 years.

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5 hours ago, Darius West said:

The idea of the apprentice sorcerer comes as an artifact from RQ3. 

The concept is way older than that, there are many tales of a sorcerer's apprentice doing things.

I see an apprentice sorcerer working similarly to an apprentice shaman.

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

So what? We already see that the sorcery is nerfed. 

So what? I have never used sorcery in my games and we only had one sorcerer PC in any campaigns that I have run or played in, so it is pretty irrelevant to me.

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

And it will continue to be so, as its been the excuse for at least the last 40 years.

My guess, and it is only a guess, is that a lot of people won't like how Malkioni are treated in forthcoming supplements. That guess is, of course, not based on any knowledge at all, but on a hunch that the sources of inspiration of the Malkioni is not in the Swords and Sorcery-style lonely Sorcerer with a couple of apprentices in a remote tower, but on some ancient real-world philosophies.

 

Edited by soltakss
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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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51 minutes ago, soltakss said:

The concept is way polder than that, there are many tales of a sorcerer's apprentice doing things.

To clarify, I mean in RQ, not Disney.

51 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I see an apprentice sorcerer working similarly to an apprentice shaman.

With caveats, given that they have a lot of differences, that's fair enough.

52 minutes ago, soltakss said:

So what? I have never used sorcery in my games and we only had one sorcerer PC in any campaigns that I have run or played in, so it is pretty irrelevant to me.

Vis the nerfing of sorcery, I think that common spells (given that they rely on CHA) shouldn't affect Free INT. Apart from that, sorcery is a bit of an aside in RQ as you say.

55 minutes ago, soltakss said:

My guess, and it is only a guess, is that a lot of people won't like how Malkioni are treated in forthcoming supplements. That guess is, of course, not based on any knowledge at all, but on a hunch that the sources of inspiration of the Malkioni is not in the Swords and Sorcery-style lonely Sorcerer with a couple of apprentices in a remote tower, but on some ancient real-world philosophies.

I suspect that there will be efforts made to properly place the Malkioni in Glorantha.  They won't be like Conan the Barbarian sorcerers, who in many ways are more like Call of C'thulhu sorcerers.

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2 hours ago, soltakss said:

I have never used sorcery in my games and we only had one sorcerer PC in any campaigns that I have run or played in, so it is pretty irrelevant to me

We use it all the time. 

 

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

My guess, and it is only a guess, is that a lot of people won't like how Malkioni are treated in forthcoming supplements.

I fear you are right, but hoping you are wrong.

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3 hours ago, soltakss said:

My guess, and it is only a guess, is that a lot of people won't like how Malkioni are treated in forthcoming supplements. That guess is, of course, not based on any knowledge at all, but on a hunch that the sources of inspiration of the Malkioni is not in the Swords and Sorcery-style lonely Sorcerer with a couple of apprentices in a remote tower, but on some ancient real-world philosophies.

I agree.  It will be far more in the way of long-term priestly rituals meant to support the nobles and the community at large.

If there is a place that fits for the lonely Swords and Sorcery style sorcerer, I'm thinking it's the Orathorn mages on the edge of Pent, or perhaps some sort of sorcerous guilds in Fonrit.

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On 7/23/2021 at 8:24 PM, jajagappa said:

If there is a place that fits for the lonely Swords and Sorcery style sorcerer, I'm thinking it's the Orathorn mages on the edge of Pent

Not in my Glorantha.

In my Glorantha they are like the Cenobites in Hellraiser, Necromantic Sorcerers who live in a portion of Hell pushed into the normal world. There's is a world of the living dead, of chambers of hanging corpses that the magicians can possess and animate, where they can stitch the corpses together to make new things.

But, my Glorantha varies.

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

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32 minutes ago, soltakss said:

In my Glorantha they are like the Cenobites in Hellraiser, Necromantic Sorcerers who live in a portion of Hell pushed into the normal world. There's is a world of the living dead, of chambers of hanging corpses that the magicians can possess and animate, where they can stitch the corpses together to make new things.

Yes, that would work well.

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7 hours ago, soltakss said:

Not in my Glorantha.

In my Glorantha they are like the Cenobites in Hellraiser, Necromantic Sorcerers who live in a portion of Hell pushed into the normal world. There's is a world of the living dead, of chambers of hanging corpses that the magicians can possess and animate, where they can stitch the corpses together to make new things.

But, my Glorantha varies.

You've really fallen for all that gobbledygook the Orlanthi priests have been feeding you... 😛

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On 7/22/2021 at 5:30 PM, Jeff said:

A sorcerer is anyone who uses sorcery. Do you mean a professional sorcerer? There are basically two options in the core rules - be a scribe of Lhankor Mhy and you get to be a sorcerer. Or be a weird philosopher and learn sorcery.

In the old days, there was a form of parity with shamanic and divine paths where you "graduated" to Adept and were considered a Rune Master. In RQ3, you did that by creating a familiar. Sandy's system had a number of Arts mastered at 90% skill, if I recall correctly. Those aren't a thing any more. Is there a Rune Master threshold for sorcerers, granting things like the immunity to the Peace spell?

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44 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

In the old days, there was a form of parity with shamanic and divine paths where you "graduated" to Adept and were considered a Rune Master. In RQ3, you did that by creating a familiar. Sandy's system had a number of Arts mastered at 90% skill, if I recall correctly. Those aren't a thing any more. Is there a Rune Master threshold for sorcerers, granting things like the immunity to the Peace spell?

I certainly set it up like that. If you look at Denarius the Minter, JC publication. As you advance your association with magic gives one Magic Sense, increased Resistance to spells and so on.

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  • 11 months later...

I played a sorcerer in the new glorantha runequest. 

My character was a scribe of Lhankor Mhy, at the beginning I did not let my character show he was a sorcerer, he knew some consider it akin to lunar or chaos. Any spell he cast was assumed to be provided by his God. The other players were OK with him (though I suspect if I had continued to play at least one would have role played a hate for sorcerers) the others were grateful of my characters educated and useful skills (as well as his iron warhammer). 

We (GM and I) just used the rules in the scribe section and the sorcery section. In house rules were changed a bit as it was found that if I cast a sorcery spell it took too long and most battles were over by the time his spell was ready. We also incorporated some elements from RQ3 which has a mor expansive sorcery section. 

To be honest the best part of a sorcerer (scribe or philosopher) is his or her knowledge. My character was devoted to the god of knowledge (devoted is too strong a word but he did what he had to to keep his sorcery) 

I'd suggest using the rules in the book, remove the casting time of a full round (12strike ranks?) plus 12strike rank per magic point used. And just go with the 1sr/mp used. As for spell percentage the rules do give additional percent for using components and actual spell words etc... And using the relevant runes to boost a spell chance is handy. 

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2 hours ago, Saxton said:

I'd suggest using the rules in the book, remove the casting time of a full round (12strike ranks?) plus 12strike rank per magic point used. And just go with the 1sr/mp used.

Rule is 1 full round, plus 1SR/MP.

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We are using a house rule to allow an old style adept to keep a spell ready to cast. It takes twice the MP, and the corresponding time, and is rolled when prepared. The sorcerer cannot cast other magic spells (including rune magic) while keeping a spell ready, and any loss of concentration will lose the spell. It fits with the glass cannon view of sorcerers, and gives sorcerer characters something to do magically besides the strict agenda of long duration spells. 

Adept we have as requirements one spell at 90%, Read/Write school language at 90%, Meditation 90% and one of School Lore, Spirit Lore or Worship, as well as five mastered Runes and techniques. 

A change over RQ3 is that we allow familiars only to Magus, and only one at a time, as equivalent to Rune levels. Requirements are still in flux as we have no candidates right now, but are: master (90%) six spells. They must have mastered their INT maximum of Runes and techniques, including the school bonus (each sorcery school offers some "bonus" techniques or runes.  Familiars can hold a "ready" spell for their masters, as described above for adepts,. They can use their familiar's POW instead of theirs to resist magic, if it is higher and the familiar is within POW meters. Skills required will be all those listed for Adept.

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I can understand why familiars have been removed. They never did really feel very "Malkioni". If they are a Gloranthan thing then maybe Arkati, Lunars, Aeolians, basically "theistic" sorcerers might have them. A sorcerous parallel to allied spirits, and an abomination to the purists.

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29 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

If they are a Gloranthan thing then maybe Arkati, Lunars, Aeolians, basically "theistic" sorcerers might have them. A sorcerous parallel to allied spirits, and an abomination to the purists.

This idea I like a lot. Thanks.

Edited by Kloster
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It probably helps to define terms. Sorcery is a form of magic that doesn't require any external input other than raw magical energy in the form of interchangeable MP.  Sorcery works the same whatever fuels it, whether personal power, voluntary donations, organished pseudo-worship, sacrifice, or tapping.

A _sorceror_ is one who actually takes advantage of that feature, and so rejects community ties and restraints. They say the unspeakable, do the things that must not be done. Delecti is a sorceror,  a Lhankor Mhy worshipper, or a Brithini Talar, are not. Although they might be things a sorceror would claim to be to avoid suspicion, because not everyone has an undead-shark filled marsh into which any number of angry mobs could vanish without trace.

Most of the time calling someone a sorceror is a slur and a slander; sometimes it is nevertheless accurate.

 

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I consider the Malkioni school you are in will influence the kind of familiars allowed. So a Brithini zzabur may only have a grimoire familiar, and I expect most people would not begrudge a zzabur a spell casting book, as Zzabur bound his own knowledge and ability in books.

Only a deranged arkati would create as a familiar from a succubus or a nymph, but what a ride...

If we follow the discussion on ally spirits, I like PhilHibbs suggestion that fetches, ally spirits and familiars are three sides of spiritual evolution. And I feel a familiar which is just part of you feels right from a sorcery point of view, as well as shocking players when Argrath not only is a shaman and a Wind Lord, but also a Magus (the reason why he was so permissive with Mularik Ironeye). 

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14 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I can understand why familiars have been removed. They never did really feel very "Malkioni". If they are a Gloranthan thing then maybe Arkati, Lunars, Aeolians, basically "theistic" sorcerers might have them. A sorcerous parallel to allied spirits, and an abomination to the purists.

I presume, then, that a LM sorcerer (or, for that matter, any other appropriate cultist) can't have both in your Glorantha.

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13 hours ago, radmonger said:

It probably helps to define terms. Sorcery is a form of magic that doesn't require any external input other than raw magical energy in the form of interchangeable MP.  Sorcery works the same whatever fuels it, whether personal power, voluntary donations, organished pseudo-worship, sacrifice, or tapping.

A _sorceror_ is one who actually takes advantage of that feature, and so rejects community ties and restraints. They say the unspeakable, do the things that must not be done. Delecti is a sorceror,  a Lhankor Mhy worshipper, or a Brithini Talar, are not. Although they might be things a sorceror would claim to be to avoid suspicion, because not everyone has an undead-shark filled marsh into which any number of angry mobs could vanish without trace.

Most of the time calling someone a sorceror is a slur and a slander; sometimes it is nevertheless accurate.

 

I think I wrote this somewhat earlier in this thread, but since it's been resurrected...

I take the Theyalan word for western "sorcery" to be something with the meaning of "meldek heretic magic", whereas LM's 'sorcery' is actually a word meaning "Lhankor Knowing good God magic". I would presume this meaning of words will occur a few times across languages and cultures, even to the point that the Malkioni word for it will have the LM version of sorcery including ideas of corruption.

That is, the word(s) we use as 'sorcery' (in English) has many different forms and meanings, depending on the culture and language (and probably even time).

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11 hours ago, JRE said:

Only a deranged arkati would create as a familiar from a succubus or a nymph, but what a ride...

Depends on the rules for creating them... 😁🤪

Is your new (or old) familiar creation always obedient and respectful?

Can conditions be placed on the creature during the creation? (eg, for 1 POW, the condition that the creature take no action to the detriment of the master - or not do an action such that the omission would lead to harming them)

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3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I presume, then, that a LM sorcerer (or, for that matter, any other appropriate cultist) can't have both in your Glorantha.

I repeated something that Greg said over twenty years ago, that doesn't mean that it is my fully formed and fixed opinion. Apparently that isn't current thinking on Gloranthan cosmology. Having said that, I think I am strongly leaning towards it being that way. So no, you can't under normal circumstances have both in my Glorantha.

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3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I presume, then, that a LM sorcerer (or, for that matter, any other appropriate cultist) can't have both in your Glorantha.

 

13 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I repeated something that Greg said over twenty years ago, that doesn't mean that it is my fully formed and fixed opinion. Apparently that isn't current thinking on Gloranthan cosmology. Having said that, I think I am strongly leaning towards it being that way. So no, you can't under normal circumstances have both in my Glorantha.

In mine, they can (or could, if familiars are brought back).

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If we still consider the three sided "spiritual appendix", and I really like it, fetches are tightly linked to the shaman, allied spirits have limited independence and a primary duty to the deity, so for me it is MGF if familiars are the most independent minded of the spirit expansions, depending on what is the starting point of the familiar, as they do not have the overwhelming loyalty to the source deity of an Allied spirit. Going further, I would expect Mystics develop the Void within, so it may well be a square after all, with the Void as a source of power but no initiative whatsoever (including no magic casting), but fueling the mystic abilities. The EWF probably called it awakening your Dragon soul, but I think Void is more generally applicable. In the spirit appendix continuum, it would have even less personality than a fetch.

Some familiars, like the zzaburi grimoire I mentioned, may be almost an automaton, and I expect that is preferred by "pure" Malkioni sects. But it is likely they are against any breaking of rules or strictures. Others will try to make it more as an ally spirit, but they will still lack the sense of purpose and loyalty to a deity of an ally, so giving options for conflict, specially if not treated in the right way. It may be part of you, but it also has some other component you chose to put in. A T. Rex turned into a familiar will still be for most purposes a T. Rex. The powergaming attraction is clear, but the risk of disloyalty if mistreated, or just underfed, opens many fun opportunities. I still expect many Hrestoli "men-of-all" have their horses as familiars, which may be another reason for them being the best heavy cavalry. What is always at hand and may help you by casting magic? I expect either the sword or the horse. 

I would not put unbreakable limits, in the same way that your ally spirit may also turn against you if you betray your deity. Which is why IMG most Magi go the automaton way, though that requires building up a rigid set of rules of behaviour. That can be good MGF if used right. 

Sorcery is simply magic done by knowing about the universe,  not because someone lends you the power or a magic trick that turns mana into an effect, always in the same way. Despite the claims of rigidity, it is the most flexible, as the principle that allows you to light a campfire will allow you to burn the world, if your mind is strong enough and you have enough mana available. It may work better if it is a Fireday in the Fire season, or it may be harder in a Freezeday, but if you are skilled enough it does not matter. For me the dislike of sorcerers in most of Glorantha is the fault of the God Learners, and I also have in Genertela outside Kralorela a healthy dislike of draconic magics, which makes what Argrath does more noteworthy, and accepted only once his followers accept that the alternative is even worse (Chaos). So people will mistrust anyone who fits the stereotypes of a meldek sorcerer or a forked tongue mystic, but most Esrolians will not think twice whether the Aeolian advisor to a Durengard Wind lord uses proscribed magic or not. They have some peculiar magic, but it is one of us. Same with Lhankor Mhy followers, or even Issaries, as they know many strange things, so it is no surprise their magics may be strange.

Heroes break rules, so even if I accept the three (four) sides, a hero may have all of them, and I am pretty sure that after studying with Mynarith Blue and Mularik Argrath may well have a familiar, and he will need to awaken the Void to beat survive Sheng...

 

Edited by JRE
Small correction in the last line.
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