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Sorcerer occupation


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On 7/21/2021 at 1:58 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Do you agree with @David Scott's interpretation above? I don't, because it would mean an apprentice sorcerer would be almost identical to the Philosopher, except for the income. As I mentioned above, I don't think the sorcerer needs 2 random lores and orate. I also disagree with the income and ransom... Should be much lower for an apprentice.

The idea of the apprentice sorcerer comes as an artifact from RQ3.  They were also really weak in comparison to other types of magic user, being extremely reliant on the ritual mechanics of the RQ3 system in order to cast spells at all, but that was what an apprentice needed to do to get good through repetition.  Of course you also had the other ranks of sorcery, apprentice, assistant, adept, master etc. but this didn't really fit with Glorantha as a setting at all.  RQ3 was predicated on the idea of an ancient Europe more like Ars Magica's Mythic Europe (Except classical period not medieval), but one that was never fleshed out in any detail, except perhaps in the Vikings supplement.  The fact is, Zzaburi don't have apprentices, assistants, adepts or masters, which are based on a European guild system, but perhaps something based more closely on monasticism?  This might apply (just) to the city states of Lake Safelster in Ralios, where guilds are strong, but not in the major feudal parts of the West. I think we can say with certainty that this system shouldn't apply at all to the way sorcery is practiced in the Holy Country and Dragon Pass, as those institutions simply don't exist in those more Eastern areas.

In terms of skills, the philosopher occupation (RQG p70) is the only one that allows for learning sorcery, but a philosopher is NOT an apprentice sorcerer, they are a philosopher and that means a person who loves to learn and ponders the deeper questions of existence, not merely a magical craftsman.  As such, the lores are altogether appropriate, as is the orate skill (for purposes of argument and educating).  A philosopher is also their own master, which is fitting for a sorcerer outside the Zzaburi model, as one would find in the Theist lands of the East.  I would argue that apprentice sorcerers are not Gloranthan at all as an idea.

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5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:
  • Your ancestors will reject you if you use sorcery (by yourself or with a supplier) because when they lived they did not use it
  • Your gods (or your priests...) will reject you because you try to bypass their power

Aeolians and Stygians prove it overwise. 

 

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

That assumes that the game is balanced and it clearly isn't. 

So what? We already see that the sorcery is nerfed. 

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but a background issue: the dragon pass is filled of "scared" barbarians who reject sorcery

And it will continue to be so, as its been the excuse for at least the last 40 years.

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5 hours ago, Darius West said:

The idea of the apprentice sorcerer comes as an artifact from RQ3. 

The concept is way older than that, there are many tales of a sorcerer's apprentice doing things.

I see an apprentice sorcerer working similarly to an apprentice shaman.

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

So what? We already see that the sorcery is nerfed. 

So what? I have never used sorcery in my games and we only had one sorcerer PC in any campaigns that I have run or played in, so it is pretty irrelevant to me.

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

And it will continue to be so, as its been the excuse for at least the last 40 years.

My guess, and it is only a guess, is that a lot of people won't like how Malkioni are treated in forthcoming supplements. That guess is, of course, not based on any knowledge at all, but on a hunch that the sources of inspiration of the Malkioni is not in the Swords and Sorcery-style lonely Sorcerer with a couple of apprentices in a remote tower, but on some ancient real-world philosophies.

 

Edited by soltakss
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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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51 minutes ago, soltakss said:

The concept is way polder than that, there are many tales of a sorcerer's apprentice doing things.

To clarify, I mean in RQ, not Disney.

51 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I see an apprentice sorcerer working similarly to an apprentice shaman.

With caveats, given that they have a lot of differences, that's fair enough.

52 minutes ago, soltakss said:

So what? I have never used sorcery in my games and we only had one sorcerer PC in any campaigns that I have run or played in, so it is pretty irrelevant to me.

Vis the nerfing of sorcery, I think that common spells (given that they rely on CHA) shouldn't affect Free INT. Apart from that, sorcery is a bit of an aside in RQ as you say.

55 minutes ago, soltakss said:

My guess, and it is only a guess, is that a lot of people won't like how Malkioni are treated in forthcoming supplements. That guess is, of course, not based on any knowledge at all, but on a hunch that the sources of inspiration of the Malkioni is not in the Swords and Sorcery-style lonely Sorcerer with a couple of apprentices in a remote tower, but on some ancient real-world philosophies.

I suspect that there will be efforts made to properly place the Malkioni in Glorantha.  They won't be like Conan the Barbarian sorcerers, who in many ways are more like Call of C'thulhu sorcerers.

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2 hours ago, soltakss said:

I have never used sorcery in my games and we only had one sorcerer PC in any campaigns that I have run or played in, so it is pretty irrelevant to me

We use it all the time. 

 

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

My guess, and it is only a guess, is that a lot of people won't like how Malkioni are treated in forthcoming supplements.

I fear you are right, but hoping you are wrong.

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3 hours ago, soltakss said:

My guess, and it is only a guess, is that a lot of people won't like how Malkioni are treated in forthcoming supplements. That guess is, of course, not based on any knowledge at all, but on a hunch that the sources of inspiration of the Malkioni is not in the Swords and Sorcery-style lonely Sorcerer with a couple of apprentices in a remote tower, but on some ancient real-world philosophies.

I agree.  It will be far more in the way of long-term priestly rituals meant to support the nobles and the community at large.

If there is a place that fits for the lonely Swords and Sorcery style sorcerer, I'm thinking it's the Orathorn mages on the edge of Pent, or perhaps some sort of sorcerous guilds in Fonrit.

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On 7/23/2021 at 8:24 PM, jajagappa said:

If there is a place that fits for the lonely Swords and Sorcery style sorcerer, I'm thinking it's the Orathorn mages on the edge of Pent

Not in my Glorantha.

In my Glorantha they are like the Cenobites in Hellraiser, Necromantic Sorcerers who live in a portion of Hell pushed into the normal world. There's is a world of the living dead, of chambers of hanging corpses that the magicians can possess and animate, where they can stitch the corpses together to make new things.

But, my Glorantha varies.

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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32 minutes ago, soltakss said:

In my Glorantha they are like the Cenobites in Hellraiser, Necromantic Sorcerers who live in a portion of Hell pushed into the normal world. There's is a world of the living dead, of chambers of hanging corpses that the magicians can possess and animate, where they can stitch the corpses together to make new things.

Yes, that would work well.

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7 hours ago, soltakss said:

Not in my Glorantha.

In my Glorantha they are like the Cenobites in Hellraiser, Necromantic Sorcerers who live in a portion of Hell pushed into the normal world. There's is a world of the living dead, of chambers of hanging corpses that the magicians can possess and animate, where they can stitch the corpses together to make new things.

But, my Glorantha varies.

You've really fallen for all that gobbledygook the Orlanthi priests have been feeding you... 😛

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On 7/22/2021 at 5:30 PM, Jeff said:

A sorcerer is anyone who uses sorcery. Do you mean a professional sorcerer? There are basically two options in the core rules - be a scribe of Lhankor Mhy and you get to be a sorcerer. Or be a weird philosopher and learn sorcery.

In the old days, there was a form of parity with shamanic and divine paths where you "graduated" to Adept and were considered a Rune Master. In RQ3, you did that by creating a familiar. Sandy's system had a number of Arts mastered at 90% skill, if I recall correctly. Those aren't a thing any more. Is there a Rune Master threshold for sorcerers, granting things like the immunity to the Peace spell?

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44 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

In the old days, there was a form of parity with shamanic and divine paths where you "graduated" to Adept and were considered a Rune Master. In RQ3, you did that by creating a familiar. Sandy's system had a number of Arts mastered at 90% skill, if I recall correctly. Those aren't a thing any more. Is there a Rune Master threshold for sorcerers, granting things like the immunity to the Peace spell?

I certainly set it up like that. If you look at Denarius the Minter, JC publication. As you advance your association with magic gives one Magic Sense, increased Resistance to spells and so on.

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