Rune Spells vs. Spirit Spells

[RandomNumber]

On 7/28/2021 at 11:04 PM, Godlearner said:

With RQG Rune pools, do you find that PCs now days almost ignore Spirit Magic?

Not at all.  No RM use in 5 sessions so far.  I suspect this is mostly because they are so used to thinking of RM as one-use. I suspect they will get used to it over time but I don't see SM fading away - it's just so useful.

[Jeff]

Just now, RandomNumber said:

Not at all.  No RM use in 5 sessions so far.  I suspect this is mostly because they are so used to thinking of RM as one-use. I suspect they will get used to it over time but I don't see SM fading away - it's just so useful.

Agreed. In the games I run with very experienced and rules savvy players, they use spirit magic all the time. They are perfectly willing to spend Rune Points, but those go fast - even if some already have over 10 RP. Especially if they add Extension to a spell.

[Runeblogger]

When HeroQuest Glorantha was published and we started playing it, it looked like player characters mostly used only Rune magic. In my group, we thought it made a lot of sense that theists used mostly theist magic, while animists concentrated on spirit magic. That influenced our RQ3 campaign, where most of the time characters only used spirit magic in spite of being theists, so we made a big house rule: we converted all the common spirit magic into Rune magic, hoping to make our games more Gloranthan. We had already houseruled that Rune magic was reusable for initiates before that, so it kind of worked. But now with RQG I'm thinking of going back to how things were at the beginning. Still, I keep thinking that shamanistic cults such as Waha and Aldrya should somehow have more potent spirit magic, while theist cults should have more Rune magic, while still using both.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Getting back to the original topic of Spirit Magic vs. Rune, one reason we do more rune magic recently is that it takes no time.  You can still attack normally.

Casting a spirit magic spell like  Protection while in combat is problematic depending how strict you are on rules, and, in any case, should your opponents damage you while casting, it fails.  Casting Shield just plain works.  Also, many of our PCs have higher runes than POW*5, so the casting is slightly more reliable.

If you are in Orlanth or Ernalda or most of their associates, recovering at least some of your rune points is usually not an issue.

[Godlearner]

19 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

a big house rule: we converted all the common spirit magic into Rune magic

What we did was to add a 1pt Rune spell (Divine Grace) which stacked with a Spirit Spell when cast and converted Range, Duration and casting cost to that of a Rune Spell. For example: Blade Sharp 6 stacked with a point of Divine Grace would give you Blade Sharp 6 which would not have cost any magic points and would last for 15 minutes, could also be extended with Extension since its a Rune spell.  

This way you can add this spell and it makes those spirit spells a lot more useful for Spirit Cults.

If you think its too powerful, make it use the magic points as well.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Godlearner

[Akhôrahil]

I'm not sure I get it. Yes, Rune Magic is a lot more powerful than Spirit Magic, but it's not as though you have to choose one or the other - naturally you use both. Something weird is going on if the players don't use Spirit Magic.

[Lordabdul]

On 7/29/2021 at 1:56 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Something weird is going on if the players don't use Spirit Magic.

Agreed... although my understanding is that it's not so much that @Godlearner's players never use Spirit Magic, but that they look into Spirit Magic only as a secondary thing. IIRC, their campaign has been going on for many many years so if they have now 20 Rune Points or some crazy thing like that, and if they play more or less seasonally, then they can blow 10 RPs per adventure without blinking. Or even a lot more if they minimaxed with votive images all across Dragon Pass's temples.

Still, while some Spirit Magic overlaps with Rune Magic (see: healing or weapon buffs), there's a lot in Spirit Magic that just has no Rune Magic equivalent, so maybe the players are also too used to solving problems the same way, or having the same kind of problems thrown at them.

Edited August 2, 2021 by lordabdul

[AndreJarosch]

On 7/29/2021 at 7:41 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If you are in Orlanth or Ernalda or most of their associates, recovering at least some of your rune points is usually not an issue.

If you start an adventue that will take a week to accomplish, and you will be back for the holy day to get your runepoints back, sure... no problem. 
BUT if you start an adventure that was PLANNED to takle only a week to accomplish but takes doubble the time (in the wilderness) you may have missed the holy day ceremony. 
And since my players know that that can happen Spirit Magic gets more used than Rune Magic (Rune Magic is saved only for encounters with the BIG bad guys). 

Edited August 2, 2021 by AndreJarosch

[Rodney Dangerduck]

59 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

If you start an adventue that will take a week to accomplish, and you will be back for the holy day to get your runepoints back, sure... no problem. 
BUT if you start an adventure that was PLANNED to takle only a week to accomplish but takes doubble the time (in the wilderness) you may have missed the holy day ceremony. 
And since my players know that that can happen Spirit Magic gets more used than Rune Magic (Rune Magic is saved only for encounters with the BIG bad guys). 

I lost you at "the holy day".  An Orlanthi can recover a modest D6 rune points during the seasonal holy days of 9 other associate cults.  Ernalda, also 9.   Chalana Arroy has 7 associates, Issaries 4, not too bad.

My Vinga worshipper has used Ernalda, CA, or Eurmal holy days more often than she has the Orlanth one!

Now, Humakti, you're just screwed.  Better make it to your seasonal holy day.

[Bill the barbarian]

8 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Now, Humakti, you're just screwed.  Better make it to your seasonal holy day.

Sacred time worship should do fine as well.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

On 7/28/2021 at 7:46 AM, Bill the barbarian said:

Nope, my group grasp on to their Rune Spells like life itself . In 9 months of play not a single rune spell... Actually one, Bless Pregnancy.

I have been corrected, Warding has been used as well as Catseye. There was one more that I can not recall. 

Mea Culpa!

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Sacred time worship should do fine as well.

 

Sacred time is, arguably, a "season" too.  So there!  🙂

My point is that members of relatively "mainstream" cults, such as Lightbringers, might not want to waste Rune Points on trivial matters, but they need not "hoard" them, as there are many many chances to recover a few rune points.  Depends on campaign styles of course.

[Bill the barbarian]

35 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Sacred time is, arguably, a "season" too.  So there!  🙂

 

So where? The post I was replying to was:

 

7 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Now, Humakti, you're just screwed.  Better make it to your seasonal holy day.

So twice a year, do you disagree? 🙂

ETA
Aw yes,  seasonal holy day, sorry I misread this to be High Holy Day. I must of been thinking of Initiates as well. Let’s face it, this is a difficult game and a misunderstanding can lead to confusion very easily. 

so Initiates up to two RP gains per year from worship, Swords, up to 6 due to worship.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

so Initiates up to two RP gains per year from worship

Not sure what you mean by "RP gains".

A initiate of Humakt can recover used rune points six times a year, including Sacred Time.  An initiate of Orlanth nine times a season.

[Baron Wulfraed]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Aw yes,  seasonal holy day, sorry I misread this to be High Holy Day. I must of been thinking of Initiates as well. Let’s face it, this is a difficult game and a misunderstanding can lead to confusion very easily. 

so Initiates up to two RP gains per year from worship, Swords, up to 6 due to worship

Page 315 - italics mine

Quote

Seasonal Holy Day: With a successful Worship roll on a seasonal holy day, initiates get 2D6 Rune points restored, and Rune Priests, God-talkers, and Rune Lords get all Rune points replenished. With a failure, an initiate gets 1D3 Rune points replenished; God-talkers, Rune Priests, and Rune Lords get 1D6 Rune points replenished.

So even Humakt gets a chance (still need to make the Worship roll for best result, but even a 1D3 on failure could replenish a starting character with the typical 3 RPs).

POW Gain rolls is a different matter. Page 418

Quote

A Worship ritual held on the High Holy Day of the cult or during the Sacred Time, allows all participants that make a successful Worship skill roll to make a POW gain roll.

So if said Humakt hasn't spent money for training (500L and taking one 24hr day per week of the season to earn a POW gain roll), they'd better have succeeded in either spirit combat, or a POW vs POW roll for some spell they've cast in the season.

[Bill the barbarian]

9 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

A initiate of Humakt can recover used rune points six times a year, including Sacred Time.  An initiate of Orlanth nine times a season.

Yes of course You try to do this stuff with the equivalent of a perpetual migraine... about the only time you will find me making two mistakes in a night... Man, picky folk looking for a weakness and swooping...

Mea (Sam Jackson expletive gerund) culpa!

ETA
Think of the number of times you see this kind of mistake from me... have a heart!

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Mea (Sam Jackson expletive gerund) culpa

You are most certainly the only person to ever make a mistake on these forums.  🙂

Make sure your players know - they might be more willing to use their Rune Magic.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Make sure your players know - they might be more willing to use their Rune Magic.

ar ar, glad you decided to have a heart.

[ChrisJ]

Seems people are running with only seasonal Holy days for cults.  Rune Points can also be recovered on Minor Holy days.  Perhaps the Cults book will provide more details - but for all my player's cults I have decided that there is a minor holy day each week (Orlanth Windsday, Ernalda Clay day, etc) - I have however ruled that Initiates can only Sacrifice up to two extra MP and that Rune level (priest/lord) can sacrifice four extra - resulting in other sacrifice and augments being used.  This is balanced by the fact that most of the NPC opponents they face have full RP and are prepared to use most of them.

 

[Godlearner]

7 hours ago, ChrisJ said:

Seems people are running with only seasonal Holy days for cults.  Rune Points can also be recovered on Minor Holy days.  Perhaps the Cults book will provide more details - but for all my player's cults I have decided that there is a minor holy day each week (Orlanth Windsday, Ernalda Clay day, etc) - I have however ruled that Initiates can only Sacrifice up to two extra MP and that Rune level (priest/lord) can sacrifice four extra - resulting in other sacrifice and augments being used.  This is balanced by the fact that most of the NPC opponents they face have full RP and are prepared to use most of them.

 

To me the entire recovery system on holy days is very flavorful, but mechanically a pain. We went to the old way of recovering rune spells 1 day per point used in prayer.

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, ChrisJ said:

Seems people are running with only seasonal Holy days for cults.  Rune Points can also be recovered on Minor Holy days.  Perhaps the Cults book will provide more details - but for all my player's cults I have decided that there is a minor holy day each week (Orlanth Windsday, Ernalda Clay day, etc) - I have however ruled that Initiates can only Sacrifice up to two extra MP and that Rune level (priest/lord) can sacrifice four extra - resulting in other sacrifice and augments being used.  This is balanced by the fact that most of the NPC opponents they face have full RP and are prepared to use most of them.

There are only a few cults with minor days: see Minor Holy Days. However most can use associated cults high or seasonal holy day per page 315. One of the few cults not helped by this is Humakt with no associated cults. In the upcoming cults book, it says:

Quote

However, in many other Orlanthi communities, new initiates of Humakt swear an oath to their tribe and/or clan at the culmination of their initiation. These initiates are welcomed back into their community, keep the pertinent Passions and, in return, are maintained by the tribe and/or clan as professional warriors.

If this has happened, I allow Orlanth seasonal and high holy days as Humakt is Orlanth's Sword. 

[Baron Wulfraed]

9 hours ago, ChrisJ said:

Seems people are running with only seasonal Holy days for cults.  Rune Points can also be recovered on Minor Holy days.  Perhaps the Cults book will provide more details - but for all my player's cults I have decided that there is a minor holy day each week (Orlanth Windsday, Ernalda Clay day, etc) - I have however ruled that Initiates can only Sacrifice up to two extra MP and that Rune level (priest/lord) can sacrifice four extra - resulting in other sacrifice and augments being used.  This is balanced by the fact that most of the NPC opponents they face have full RP and are prepared to use most of them.

 

Of course, there is always the votive figure option... Persuade the priest(s)* to let you place a number of votive figures into the temple, and you get an "automatic" 1RP per figure renewed on seasonal holy days.

* If you're really persuasive, you might have figures scattered at temples throughout the region.

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

To me the entire recovery system on holy days is very flavorful, but mechanically a pain. We went to the old way of recovering rune spells 1 day per point used in prayer.

Mechanically we find it very easy. Players go to their temples and that becomes a significant event. It becomes key pillars around which they structure in-game time.

[AndreJarosch]

21 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I lost you at "the holy day".  An Orlanthi can recover a modest D6 rune points during the seasonal holy days of 9 other associate cults.  Ernalda, also 9.   Chalana Arroy has 7 associates, Issaries 4, not too bad.

My Vinga worshipper has used Ernalda, CA, or Eurmal holy days more often than she has the Orlanth one!

Now, Humakti, you're just screwed.  Better make it to your seasonal holy day.

I have a zoo group (Orlanth Adventures warrior from Sartar, Lhankor Mhy bookkeeper from Tarsh, Idovanus Sorcerer from Carmania (i use the RQ3 rules for him), Kyger Litor Warrior Dark Troll from Yolp Mountains, Aldrya Greenelf from the Elder Wilds in Balazar) and they are currently in the Big Rubble. 

[Runeblogger]

38 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

I have a zoo group (Orlanth Adventures warrior from Sartar, Lhankor Mhy bookkeeper from Tarsh, Idovanus Sorcerer from Carmania (i use the RQ3 rules for him), Kyger Litor Warrior Dark Troll from Yolp Mountains, Aldrya Greenelf from the Elder Wilds in Balazar) and they are currently in the Big Rubble. 

Tell me more about their adventures, please. 🙂