Rune Spells vs. Spirit Spells

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, AndreJarosch said:

I have a zoo group

Good point.  In such a group, I would expect the PCs to be more cautious in the use of their rune points.  Especially since they are far from their normal temples and "support".

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Mechanically we find it very easy. Players go to their temples and that becomes a significant event. It becomes key pillars around which they structure in-game time.

Sure, if the player worship the well known Gods, and are in the area with temples. It just does not work from our games. 

[Jeff]

36 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Sure, if the player worship the well known Gods, and are in the area with temples. It just does not work from our games. 

If adventurers don't have cults in the area, then replenishing Rune Magic is supposed to be hard.

[Godlearner]

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

If adventurers don't have cults in the area, then replenishing Rune Magic is supposed to be hard.

We disagree on that. Given the time, a Sanctify spell should be enough to re-pray.

[Jeff]

15 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

We disagree on that. Given the time, a Sanctify spell should be enough to re-pray.

Your can run your games as you will, but that is the intent of the rules. That's not really a "disagreement," so much as wanting a different set of rules on the matter.

[Baron Wulfraed]

6 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

I have a zoo group (Orlanth Adventures warrior from Sartar, Lhankor Mhy bookkeeper from Tarsh, Idovanus Sorcerer from Carmania (i use the RQ3 rules for him), Kyger Litor Warrior Dark Troll from Yolp Mountains, Aldrya Greenelf from the Elder Wilds in Balazar) and they are currently in the Big Rubble. 

Heh... "zoo group" leads my mind to... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zoo_Gang

 

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

 "zoo group"

[Lordabdul]

8 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Given the time, a Sanctify spell should be enough to re-pray.

Was that "should" as in "the rules don't enable this but I wish they did", or "should" as in "if you use Sanctify right, you can get by"? AFAICT you can indeed get by with Sanctify, although it's of course not as nice as with a temple.

I'm also curious what your problem was with the holy days -- was it the problem of always having to check the calendar to keep track of them?

[Rob Darvall]

18 hours ago, Jeff said:

Mechanically we find it very easy. Players go to their temples and that becomes a significant event. It becomes key pillars around which they structure in-game time.

On 8/3/2021 at 3:18 AM, AndreJarosch said:

...
BUT if you start an adventure that was PLANNED to takle only a week to accomplish but takes doubble the time (in the wilderness) you may have missed the holy day ceremony. 
...

 These two things work together at my table to produce an extra bit of urgency to beetling about Prax. Leading to low RP characters taking risks to get home in time. AKA plot hooks.

[David Scott]

On 8/2/2021 at 6:18 PM, AndreJarosch said:

BUT if you start an adventure that was PLANNED to takle only a week to accomplish but takes doubble the time (in the wilderness) you may have missed the holy day ceremony

You just have one on your own, creating the sacred area with sanctify. My players always keep a point in reserve if they know this will happen. The other adventurers often take part as lay or associate members. It does take a day though.

[Godlearner]

12 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I'm also curious what your problem was with the holy days -- was it the problem of always having to check the calendar to keep track of them?

Keeping track of calendar. Our games do not rely on set a set time schedule. Nor do we use standard cults.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Keeping track of calendar. Our games do not rely on set a set time schedule. Nor do we use standard cults.

This really should have been noted in your original question.  Really.

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

This really should have been noted in your original question.  Really.

It is indeed starting to look like "we are using custom cults, with custom magic rules, in a custom campaign -- did you ever notice a problem with the original rules?" 😄   Even if Godlearner had the best intentions in the OP, I doubt that any of our experiences and replies will have much applicable value...

[PhilHibbs]

The original post was implying that they have no problem at all replenishing their rune pools, since they hardly ever use spirit magic but use lots of rune magic instead. At no point did he complain about rune pool replenishing being a problem.

[Lordabdul]

1 minute ago, PhilHibbs said:

The original post was implying that they have no problem at all replenishing their rune pools, since they hardly ever use spirit magic but use lots of rune magic instead. At no point did he complain about rune pool replenishing being a problem.

Yes but that's the thing for me: scarcity of Rune Points is one of the factors that makes Spirit Magic a desirable thing to use. Change the mechanics of Rune Point replenishing, and that affects the balance.

[PhilHibbs]

On 8/3/2021 at 7:54 PM, Godlearner said:

We disagree on that. Given the time, a Sanctify spell should be enough to re-pray.

18 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Was that "should" as in "the rules don't enable this but I wish they did", or "should" as in "if you use Sanctify right, you can get by"? AFAICT you can indeed get by with Sanctify, although it's of course not as nice as with a temple.

You can absolutely use Sanctify for this, it says so right there in the spell description. Plus you can litter the landscape with votive images and get points back automatically. I really don't see why getting RP back is hard. If you think it should be, then maybe you need to consider house-ruling it to make it harder.

6 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Yes but that's the thing for me: scarcity of Rune Points is one of the factors that makes Spirit Magic a desirable thing to use. Change the mechanics of Rune Point replenishing, and that affects the balance.

I don't see any evidence that @Godlearner has changed the mechanics at all. Maybe he has, but he hasn't said so.

Edited August 4, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Akhôrahil]

8 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

You can absolutely use Sanctify for this, it says so right there in the spell description. 

You need a Rune Level to officiate the service, but if you have that, you’re all set, sure.

[Lordabdul]

13 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Maybe he has, but he hasn't said so.

See the previous page:

Quote

To me the entire recovery system on holy days is very flavorful, but mechanically a pain. We went to the old way of recovering rune spells 1 day per point used in prayer.

I'm not clear whether these rules actually make it easier or not to recover Rune Points, however, so who knows whether that affected the attractiveness of Rune vs Spirit magic, and whether my point is valid or not.

Another potentially important point is that, IIRC, Godlearner's game has been going on for decades? I think they half-upgraded to RQG from RQ3, so it's also possible that the characters all have more than 15 Rune Points each? And that's another important thing to mention, I'd say. And I would be totally open to believe that some things starts to break down with high-powered characters.

Edited August 4, 2021 by lordabdul

[Baron Wulfraed]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

You need a Rune Level to officiate the service, but if you have that, you’re all set, sure.

Strangely, that is not called out on page 315

Quote

Rune points may only be replenished through worship of the deity on a holy day and participation in cult rites.

Rune points can be replenished up to the total the adventurer has with their deity by participating in worship of the deity at a temple, sanctified area, or other holy place to the deity on a holy day and succeeding with a Worship skill roll and an expenditure of at least 2 magic points.

The amount of Rune points replenished depends on the holy day and whether the adventurer is a mere initiate, Godtalker, Rune Priest, or Rune Lord.

I see nothing that prevents one spending a day in private Worship...

 

[Arcadiagt5]

To add to some of the recent comments: the system, and most importantly timing, for rune point replenishment is an essential part of the game. It makes players plan for when they head out on journeys, and creates nervousness after a big fight if there’s weeks before the next holy day and they're tapped out. 

Sure, as GM I have to be aware of this too and maybe adjust threat levels to match anticipated capabilities, but that’s not a huge deal.

The sense of connection to the god, of being vulnerable when that connection weakens, is (or should be) intrinsic to RuneQuest imo. 

[Lordabdul]

3 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

I see nothing that prevents one spending a day in private Worship...

And in fact the topic was clarified in the Q&A pages (scroll down to "Worship"). Simple initiates can indeed do their own worship and replenish their Rune Points.

[Bill the barbarian]

52 minutes ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

To add to some of the recent comments: the system, and most importantly timing, for rune point replenishment is an essential part of the game. It makes players plan for when they head out on journeys, and creates nervousness after a big fight if there’s weeks before the next holy day and they're tapped out. 

 

Sure, how can I say no to that! Its Glorantha written large all over for one thing, it gives the players something to control and keep track of and make part of their overall strategy. Best of all it gives a reason to bring out one of the best parts of RQG— the lovely and very myth evoking calendar!
As difficult as it is to annunciate (see upthread), it is very easy to play and to make it easier, take @Eff’s excellent advice and share the work with your players. More agency!

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, lordabdul said:

And in fact the topic was clarified in the Q&A pages (scroll down to "Worship"). Simple initiates can indeed do their own worship and replenish their Rune Points.

Huh. So priests are actually a bit extraneous? You can have them as magical specialists, but you don't really need them? "Priesthood of all initiates"?

Good news for Vostor, I guess! 🙂 Always, always save one Rune Point if you can't trust you will have temple access, since as long as you can just Sanctify, you will get a regain! It also makes getting Banned less impressive than it sounds, since you can just DIY the worship.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

56 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Huh. So priests are actually a bit extraneous? You can have them as magical specialists, but you don't really need them? "Priesthood of all initiates"?
 

yes and no :

yes we are in RQG where there are skills and not classes :

you can wear a full plate armor, use a two handed, without being a warrior

you can farm the land without being a farmer

you can worship the god without being a priest

 

no we are in a full universe Glorantha where there are social interactions, centers of power, and jobs so priests are important because they are dedicated to some activities, because they have time and resource to do that, etc..

 

every one may use sanctify and organize a worship... but without good statues, music, sacrifices, etc... I would say that the gain and at least difficulties should be different.

 

I never did it but if I had to manage a group of pcs in the wild (or in a mega urban city for a hunter cult) who want to organize a worship ceremony, yes they would have some reward for their devotion (gain passion) but probably with some penalty to the worship roll (not a pleasant place for the god)

Edited August 5, 2021 by French Desperate WindChild

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Huh. So priests are actually a bit extraneous? You can have them as magical specialists, but you don't really need them? "Priesthood of all initiates"?

Only priests (or their rune lord equivalents) can initiate new cult members, god-talkers and initiates can't. (Shamans can for spirit cults.)

I suspect that a site, shrine or temple wyter needs to be involved in reactivating the rune points. If your party has a wyter of its own, it might easily be able to do that, but in that case they are as likely to have a rune level or two.

Sanctify allows you to do your worship and avoid the displeasure of your deity. Sanctify in the Apple Lane Temple to all Deities would be at a maintained site, possibly with a wyter that accepts temporary membership. Using an associate's shrine might work, too.

Priesthood of all initiates sounds dangerously like a form of illumination.