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Rune Spells vs. Spirit Spells


Godlearner

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22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Only priests (or their rune lord equivalents) can initiate new cult members, god-talkers and initiates can't.

Do we know this for a fact? I mean it makes sense and all, but I thought the same thing about needing a priest to lead worship, and the rules don't state it (and in fact somewhat suggest the opposite - "If one or both parents were cult initiates, the adventurer may join simply by sacrificing 1 point of POW").

(And at least going by RAW, you can explicitly regain Rune Points in a merely Sanctified area - "Ceremonies are performable within a Sanctified area that normally can be performed only in a temple, such as replenishing Rune points.")

Edited by Akhôrahil
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14 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Do we know this for a fact?

If you ask whether there is a text passage in the RQG rules so far, the answer is (most likely) no.

Earlier, the result of a direct question to this extent was answered that way.

The reverse process, Ban, is limited to high priests or similar (Red Book of Magic p.15) and even prevents lay membership.

There are certain other rune magics limited to priests or high priests, too. No idea whether god-talkers can use spell-teaching or whether it takes priests or rune lords.

14 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I mean it makes sense and all, but I thought the same thing about needing a priest to lead worship, and the rules don't state it (and in fact somewhat suggest the opposite - "If one or both parents were cult initiates, the adventurer may join simply by sacrificing 1 point of POW").

Assuming that the parents were part of the same temple or shrine, and that a rune level mediates this.

Rune points are a rules construct, not a fact of the world, but they model a certain behavior of the characters towards their cult community and cult entity, and vice versa.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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EDIT: My mistake - I thought I was smart by searching for "spell teaching", but for God-talkers it actually does say "As with Rune Priests, a God-talker may teach other cult members the spirit magic spells they know. They may charge for this service in the same fashion as a Rune Priest."

So yes, God-Talkers can teach spells.

One question that emerges is whether they can just choose not to take pay and hand out all the free Spirit Magic knowledge they feel like (and have time for) to other cult members (lay membership counts and is often easily accomplished to minimal cost) in the party? It seems so, and there doesn't seem to be any inherent cost involved.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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15 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Another potentially important point is that, IIRC, Godlearner's game has been going on for decades? I think they half-upgraded to RQG from RQ3, so it's also possible that the characters all have more than 15 Rune Points each? And that's another important thing to mention, I'd say. And I would be totally open to believe that some things starts to break down with high-powered characters.

The game has been goin on for decades, but we switch characters every few years with old ones becoming NPCs. At teh moment the PCs have about 6 to 10 points in their Rune Pools. We are pretty much using RQ2/RQ3 rules, but are using RQG Rune Pools. The issue with temples and cults is that the PCs are in a relatively unexplored area of the world. There are several population centers about 3k people, but they are spread out. The cults are semi custom being subcults of major ones. 

Perhaps it is the accessibility to Spirit Magic vs Rune Magic which is influencing things. It is a lot easier, and cheaper, for PCs to get access to Heal Wound than a Heal 6 which is influencing their choices. Just wanted to know what others have experienced.

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1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Do we know this for a fact? I mean it makes sense and all, but I thought the same thing about needing a priest to lead worship, and the rules don't state it

For established cults, the expectation is that priests initiate new members.  But we have the examples of spirit cults (typically started by shamans) and situations in both the Quickstart and in the RQ Adventures scenarios where PC's become the initial "priests" of a new cult. 

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20 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

For established cults, the expectation is that priests initiate new members.  But we have the examples of spirit cults (typically started by shamans) and situations in both the Quickstart and in the RQ Adventures scenarios where PC's become the initial "priests" of a new cult. 

Pretty much all religions start this way. Someone has to be the first. 

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10 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

For established cults, the expectation is that priests initiate new members.  But we have the examples of spirit cults (typically started by shamans) and situations in both the Quickstart and in the RQ Adventures scenarios where PC's become the initial "priests" of a new cult. 

even in "old" cult you may have a situation where a non priest (= no rqg rules qualification) may have to initiate people:

let's say a comunity migrating in a unknown island to escape some danger. the only priest of god XXX was killed by some Magasta's friends during the travel

does that mean the god XXX will let the community collapse or will it allow a new "near-priest" (=no rqg priest ) to do the job only a priest (social/divine role) should ?

I consider sometimes (not always !) it will accept someone to take the role (background + occupation skills experience+ ability to do thing only priests can do) without all gains a rune level (pow gain like an initiate for example)

in fact that's a difference I make between rune priest character and priest occupation :

the rune priests gain all the bonus described in the rqg rules (the rune levels are "near" their god) when the priests do the job.

Of course in a large and established community the priests will be selected because (but not only) tehy are "able" to be "near" their god.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Perhaps it is the accessibility to Spirit Magic vs Rune Magic which is influencing things. It is a lot easier, and cheaper, for PCs to get access to Heal Wound than a Heal 6 which is influencing their choices. Just wanted to know what others have experienced.

If your characters/players are routinely losing that many limbs, perhaps they should learn when NOT to fight... 😈

Heal 2 is sufficient to cauterize severe bleeders, and can be recast during the day to incrementally heal the rest. And the magic points will recover during the day. (A 16MP character regains 2 points every 3 hours, so over a day could cast 16 points of incremental Heal 2 and only be running the 2 points below max MP; distribute the Heal among the rest of the party [including the wounded character] and see what happens)

 

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3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Except for those severed Left Legs... don't want everyone to end up at Gimpy's Tavern.

Regrow Limb is a two point spell, but can be cast at a temple with easy access to rune points.

Edited by Joerg

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

One question that emerges is whether they can just choose not to take pay and hand out all the free Spirit Magic knowledge they feel like (and have time for) to other cult members (lay membership counts and is often easily accomplished to minimal cost) in the party? It seems so, and there doesn't seem to be any inherent cost involved.

We always assumed that there would be a minimum charged equal to the tithing that the teacher must give to the temple. So a priest may give a discount, but the temple takes their share.

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11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Huh. So priests are actually a bit extraneous? You can have them as magical specialists, but you don't really need them? "Priesthood of all initiates"?

You need them to maintain those big temples that give you Worship bonuses 🙂   You also need them to teach you spirit magic, make enchantments for you, let you ally a spirit, initiate into a cult, etc.

You don't need a priest to pray and worship on your own. But you don't get a Worship bonus.

 

6 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Perhaps it is the accessibility to Spirit Magic vs Rune Magic which is influencing things. It is a lot easier, and cheaper, for PCs to get access to Heal Wound than a Heal 6 which is influencing their choices. Just wanted to know what others have experienced.

Ah interesting, I didn't think about the accessibility part. But I'm not sure about it? RQG p313 says: "The sacrifice requires a full week of prayer and meditation in the temple." I assume that "temple" here can also be substituted for "shrine" since p284 mentions that a shrine typically gets you access to one Rune spell special to the cult. Either way, it means that accessibility to Rune Magic is limited to shrines and temples. In comparison, Spirit Magic is accessible from any wandering shaman or God Talker tending to a site, in addition to the same shrines and temples as Rune Magic... so my reading is that new Spirit Magic is more accessible than new Rune Magic if you're out in the wilderness (in addition to Spirit Magic obviously replenishing way faster). Did I miss something?

Edited by lordabdul
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Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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3 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

You need them to maintain those big temples that give you Worship bonuses 🙂  

Who needs a worship bonus when you get +10% from an MP? 🙂 I've yet to see a single Worship roll of under 95%.

4 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

You also need them to teach you spirit magic, make enchantments for you

This is true, but that's more useful than crucial. 

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13 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Either way, it means that accessibility to Rune Magic is limited to shrines and temples. In comparison, Spirit Magic is accessible from any wandering shaman or God Talker tending to a site, in addition to the same shrines and temples as Rune Magic... so my reading is that new Spirit Magic is more accessible than new Rune Magic if you're out in the wilderness (in addition to Spirit Magic obviously replenishing way faster). Did I miss something?

For the initial sacrifice, but once you have it, getting it back is simple (no matter the method you use). Getting Spirit Magic away from 'home' is not easy. Good luck finding a shaman or God-talker willing to teach someone who is not an initiate or a tribe member.

 

15 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

make enchantments for you,

That's a whole separate topic.  I just do not believe that priest do that for initiates except in very rare cases and at much higher rates than most people believe. 

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1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

For the initial sacrifice, but once you have it, getting it back is simple (no matter the method you use). Getting Spirit Magic away from 'home' is not easy. Good luck finding a shaman or God-talker willing to teach someone who is not an initiate or a tribe member.

Sure, but that's still where I fail to see how Rune Magic is more accessible than Spirit Magic? If you don't populate your Glorantha with many open-minded or capitalist shamans, then either way the Adventurers have to find a shrine or temple to their cult, or to a friendly cult. Once there, they can either sacrifice 1 POW for Rune Magic, or spend money for Spirit Magic. So the accessibility is the same, no?

But that's still presuming that Rune and Spirit Magic are equivalent and interchangeable anyway. To me they're not : Befuddle, many of the Detect spells, Dullblade, Multimissile, Speedart, and Spirit Screen are all examples of super useful spells that have not much Rune Magic equivalent AFAIK.

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

For the initial sacrifice, but once you have it, getting it back is simple (no matter the method you use). Getting Spirit Magic away from 'home' is not easy. Good luck finding a shaman or God-talker willing to teach someone who is not an initiate or a tribe member.

I think you will often have decent chances to be taught by a shaman - it’s just that they’re not looking to be paid in something as boring as cash. Expect to have to run errands!

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2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

For the initial sacrifice, but once you have it, getting it back is simple (no matter the method you use). Getting Spirit Magic away from 'home' is not easy. Good luck finding a shaman or God-talker willing to teach someone who is not an initiate or a tribe member 

Getting it back is simple if you're allowing automatic recovery of one or two points a week.

Which I don’t. I prefer the feel of the game where the players have to plan for when and where they will worship to restore their connection to their god. 

This is also part of what makes Spirit Magic useful: it does come back automatically, and even if the adventurer has to recharge storage crystals and then recover again, we're still talking days independent of temples and calendar, rather than potentially weeks to get the timing right and find a temple with a priest.

EDIT: I think this comes down to play style and preferred rules. But I think most of the posters who are playing close to RQG RAW don’t feel that there’s an imbalance between Spirit Magic and Rune Magic. In RAW each has its place and role, and the variations in acquisition/recovery help put them into those roles.

Edited by Arcadiagt5
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3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

In RQ2, it was vital that at least two PCs knew Heal 6.  In RQG, most of our PCs just have Heal 2 or nothing, and rely on Heal Wound for healing big damage.

We must not have played in the same realms... Back in the early 80s, I don't think my group ever had any character with Heal 6. Heal 2 was standard for all characters (and a few had xeno-healing 2 [or whatever was required to serve as a veterinarian for the horses]). Nor any in the sessions run at DunDraCon, et al.

 

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For the Heal 6 versus Heal Wound thing, my players were not fans.  Healing 6 took up a ton of space against the limit, and would have been over half of several characters starting maximum.  They stuck with Heal 2, mainly for after combat recovery, but also sometimes during combat, such as after a missile exchange.

When they absolutely had to heal someone who was clobbered by a critical hit, giant, or other gloranthan life menace, Heal Body was the go-to.  The Yelmalian worshiping Praxian pulled off many an in-combat save with this spell, and used it even more than Sunbright, which was his favorite.   Heal Wound was used sometimes, but it costs both Rune points and magic points.  My players were not swimming in stored power, and they had to start from scratch with the Rune points, so I believed they looked upon it as a wasteful emergency heal. 

In any event, their preferred take on the subject was to try real hard not to need a heal at all.  The campaign saw extensive use of "three dimensional" combat, with stealth, ambush, extended ranged combat, and solving situations with social skills whenever possible.  They definitely got the hint that this wasn't a game you beat down with "levels".  I saw more tactical approaches to combat situations and the approaches only got more creative as they got used to the game system.  As such it became more common to need either no healing at all......or things went really, really wrong and Heal Body was the most economical method to restore a fighter quickly.   But the group was not really into stand up, heroic combat as their first option.  They were a lot more Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser than Sir Gawain, and that worked. 

I'm curious to see how they might handle a higher power campaign a bit deeper into the Hero Wars, but I suspect they would do more of the same. 

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11 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Good luck finding a shaman or God-talker willing to teach someone who is not an initiate or a tribe member.

It's as easy or hard as the GM wants it to be.

8 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

We must not have played in the same realms... Back in the early 80s, I don't think my group ever had any character with Heal 6.

Same. I think I probably have played one character that had it at some point but it's almost unheard-of in my experience.

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