Rune Spells vs. Spirit Spells

[Godlearner]

11 hours ago, Dissolv said:

When they absolutely had to heal someone who was clobbered by a critical hit, giant, or other gloranthan life menace, Heal Body was the go-to.

Heal Body is a great spell, but it was either 2 or 3 points of POW previously depending on the source you read and only few cults offered it. Since Rune spells were one use for the most part, that was even worse. Sure, people got it if they could, but we always considered it more of a "well its either that or a DI" type of magic.

11 hours ago, Dissolv said:

Heal Wound was used sometimes, but it costs both Rune points and magic points. 

Magic points were mostly available in games I been after a session or two. Everyone had at least one POW spirit or a magic point matrix.

Heal 6s started to disappear from the party once people started to make Acolytes or Priests to free up the INT for other spells.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

17 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

We must not have played in the same realms... Back in the early 80s, I don't think my group ever had any character with Heal 6. ...

So, I'm wondering, what happened when a PC lost a limb to a big hit?  They were just out of it until the party returned to civilization, then out for weeks while Regrow Limb took effect?

Our group was Yelmalians, who fought a lot of trolls, who could do big damage.  And we were out in the boonies a lot, so perhaps we had to rely on ourselves more than those in other campaigns.

[Godlearner]

25 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Our group was Yelmalians, who fought a lot of trolls, who could do big damage.  And we were out in the boonies a lot, so perhaps we had to rely on ourselves more than those in other campaigns.

Hmm, troll tend to use blunt weapons, which would mangle limbs as opposed to sever them. Do not need Heal 6 to restore mangled locations. 

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Hmm, troll tend to use blunt weapons, which would mangle limbs as opposed to sever them. Do not need Heal 6 to restore mangled locations. 

 

Quote

3. Location Receives 6 More Points Than Available
A limb hit for 6 points more than it can take in a single blow is severed or irrevocably maimed. Only a 6 point Healing spell or potion applied within 2 full turns, will reknit the limb.
RuneQuest Classic, page 20. 2016

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by David Scott
added date for reference

[Godlearner]

44 minutes ago, David Scott said:

3. Location Receives 6 More Points Than Available
A limb hit for 6 points more than it can take in a single blow is severed or irrevocably maimed. Only a 6 point Healing spell or potion applied within 2 full turns, will reknit the limb.
RuneQuest Classic, page 20

These are new rules and we are talkin 80s and 90s

[ffilz]

I've almost never had a party without Heal 6, and it's pretty clear from the RQ1 rules (which is what I still run) that you need Heal 6 no matter what kind of weapon maimed/severed your limb.

Also, you only have 1 week to get back to town and Heal Body/Regrow Limb...

In my current campaign the PCs had to do that despite Heal 6. PC got nasty poison in arm. Would have died except he cut off his arm. But using Heal 6 to put the limb back on would have negated that save from the poison...

Even with the way Rune Magic works in RQG, I think I would still want at least one party member to have Heal 6.

[David Scott]

19 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

These are new rules and we are talkin 80s and 90s

Apologies, here are the old rules:

RuneQuest 2, page 18. 1980. 

If you were referring to an earlier set:

RuneQuest 1, page 22. 1978

Edited August 6, 2021 by David Scott
added RQ1

[ffilz]

17 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Apologies, here are the old rules:

 

RuneQuest 2, page 18. 1980. 

If you were referring to an earlier set:

 

RuneQuest 1, page 22. 1978

I don't remember if a Q&A clarified things, but giants swinging big tree trunks sever whatever hit location they hit even though it's crushing damage. You really hoped it was a limb... PCs don't tend to recover from severed heads, chests, or abdomens... 🙂

I do appreciate the RQ2 clarification of severed OR maimed, but it was always clear to me that 6 points over was bad news and you needed Heal 6...

[Godlearner]

Looks like we were more generous than the rules called for.

[Dissolv]

7 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Magic points were mostly available in games I been after a session or two. Everyone had at least one POW spirit or a magic point matrix.

This was a major difference in Gloranthas then -- or probably more accurately the scope and theme of my campaign, which was very much aimed at local flavor and built to support new players.  My crop of PCs were the greenest of the green, literally farmers and other people on the outs of the clan power structure who had grown tired of the situation(s), and determined to step up and make a go of changing the world, even if they were woefully unprepared to do so.  

Because the players were also completely new to RQ or Glorantha, they did things a lot differently than my old school group of players ever did.   So not only did none of them start with any sort of stored power, they also didn't prioritize gaining any.  Even when I explained the concept they sort of looked at me like they wanted to ask "but how does that help defend the central grazing lands against the Emerald Sword cattle raiders?"

 

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

So, I'm wondering, what happened when a PC lost a limb to a big hit?  They were just out of it until the party returned to civilization, then out for weeks while Regrow Limb took effect?

Pretty much, yeah. It was quite unlikely that someone hit that hard survived the fight though so I don't remember it being a problem.

Edited August 6, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Kloster]

18 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Looks like we were more generous than the rules called for.

Or you were using RQ3.

[Bill the barbarian]

On 8/5/2021 at 2:08 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Huh. So priests are actually a bit extraneous? You can have them as magical specialists, but you don't really need them? "Priesthood of all initiates"?

Not if you wish POW gains...from worship*

*ETA

Edited August 7, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Akhôrahil]

Just now, Bill the barbarian said:

Not if you wish POW gains...

Can you unpack that? Is it the +4 rating?

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 8/5/2021 at 4:04 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

...every one may use sanctify and organize a worship... but without good statues, music, sacrifices, etc... I would say that the gain and at least difficulties should be different.

I never did it but if I had to manage a group of pcs in the wild (or in a mega urban city for a hunter cult) who want to organize a worship ceremony, yes they would have some reward for their devotion (gain passion) but probably with some penalty to the worship roll (not a pleasant place for the god)

It's in four places in RQiG, but it's all there, see if you agree with my reading:

The hard part of Replenishment is not the location, it's the day:  On p.315: "...in worship of the deity at a temple, sanctified area, or other holy place to the deity on a holy day and succeeding with a Worship skill roll and an expenditure of at least 2 magic points."  The "on a holy day" part does not seem to me to be severable from the other requirements.  So that seems to me to be the most restrictive part of the formula.  Not that I haven't participated in fudging it in a game, but that's Rules As Written. 

Location seems to me to be easy: (pp.244-246) A worship ritual must be held at a sanctified place, either a shrine/temple etc OR use the Sanctify rune spell.  And you can replenish rune points on Sanctified ground or at a Site, as well as at the bigger shrines and Temples. 

The unique thing that the temple does for you is allow you to sacrifice POW to get additional rune points and learn new rune spells. (p.284).  A shrine lets you get access to one specific rune spell.  So it seems to me you can't do this at all at a Sanctified roadside spot.

The Sanctify spell description specifically says you can use it (the Sanctified location) to replenish rune points.

The worship roll requirement is not really very restrictive:

A temple and/or holy day and/or sacrifice  allows improving the % you roll to succeed in worship (p.315-316).  

Pp.245-246 say you can also improve that % chance of success in worship (or any other magical activity) by using meditation OR ritual preparation (but not both).

P.315 goes on to say that even on a worship failure, you get at least some rune points replenished in some circumstances:  In Sacred time;  on a high holy day, or a seasonal holy day for your own cult.   (But only at worship with your own cult, not with  associated cults - that takes success in the Worship.)

 

Nowhere do I see a clear requirement that only priests can lead worship.  We know god-talkers also can, and god-talkers can be initiates (p.278).  And if you read the description of initiates p.274-275, it says they must observe the cult holy days and sacrifice magic points during rituals, and they are required to take a role in rituals and the cult will teach them worship.  Good  teaching involves practical exercise, and it's the worshipper's rolls that gets them  MP replenishment, not the priest's roll.  So clearly the mere initiate does perform worship.  Does the absence of a priest get the initiate off the hook for this duty of worship?

What authorities seem to be unique to priests are that they can initiate; and can teach spells, including teaching sacrifice of POW for rune spells.  And some rune spells seem phrased such that only priests will have them. 

It seems to me to be implied that priests will be the teachers of cult lore and worship skills, and will lead and organize Sacred Time ceremonies.  P.275 "the secrets of the deity are revealed to the world through the priesthood."

 

[Godlearner]

6 hours ago, Kloster said:

Or you were using RQ3.

Perhaps. We started playing with big mix of RQ2/RQ3 rules and no one really tried to separate them out.

[Baron Wulfraed]

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The worship roll requirement is not really very restrictive:

A temple and/or holy day and/or sacrifice  allows improving the % you roll to succeed in worship (p.315-316).  

Pp.245-246 say you can also improve that % chance of success in worship (or any other magical activity) by using meditation OR ritual preparation (but not both).

P.315 goes on to say that even on a worship failure, you get at least some rune points replenished in some circumstances:  In Sacred time;  on a high holy day, or a seasonal holy day for your own cult.   (But only at worship with your own cult, not with  associated cults - that takes success in the Worship.)

You missed page 184 under "sacrifice" (italics mine)

Quote

* Magic Points: Initiates and Rune Masters must sacrifice at least 2 magic points during a Worship
ritual to their deity. No dice roll is necessary for that sacrifice. For each additional magic point sacrificed, they get a +10% bonus to their Worship skill during that ritual. Magic points sacrificed
regenerate normally.

So, assuming a character with basic Worship skill (5% base, typical +20% from cult initiation, +5 for skill/characteristic bonus => 30%), 2MP required for Worship, 7 additional MPs for %increase, gives one a total %age of 100 -- you'd have to really fumble the roll to fail. For many characters most of the MP sacrificed will be regained by the end of the Worship day.

Addendum: One could interpret the clause on page 185 ("An adventurer gets a bonus to their Worship skill by performing the ritual on a date sacred to the deity:") to imply that one /could/ perform the Worship on ANY day of the week.

 

 

Yeesh, how wide do I have to make my browser window to get the full edit bar with font color choice!

 

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Baron Wulfraed
Addendum section added

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

including teaching sacrifice of POW for rune spells

I'm not sure that's true. In looking at p313, there is no mention of intervention or support by a priest (or other Rune Master).

Also, I think it unlikely that shrines that give Rune Spells will usually be supported by a priest, and thus the Initiate is probably going to have to do it all themselves.

(Yes, this is mixing the RP increase and the gaining of a new spell)

[Squaredeal Sten]

 

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm not sure that's true. In looking at p313, there is no mention of intervention or support by a priest (or other Rune Master).

Also, I think it unlikely that shrines that give Rune Spells will usually be supported by a priest, and thus the Initiate is probably going to have to do it all themselves.

(Yes, this is mixing the RP increase and the gaining of a new spell)

RQiG P.284 seems to me to be the key: that's where the book talks about gaining access to new rune spells 'at the temple", and the shrine clause is lower down.  I do admit that doesn't say "with instruction by a priest". 

Am I unjustified in extrapolating to rune magic from spirit magic, where p.277 in the chapter on rune cults says about spirit magic "The priest performs a ritual in a holy place... this occupies a week of ritual and training during which nothing else may be done except for eating and sleeping."?

I don't think I am unjustified in that extrapolation, because p.313 at the beginning of the rune magic chapter says "A cult member may sacrifice additional points of POW to the deity, increasing the number of Rune points with the deity and gaining greater access to cult special magic.  The sacrifice requires a full week of prayer  and meditation in the temple.  ...."  [emphasis is mine].  I admit it doesn't say straight out that a priest supervises and conducts this.  But I envision learning a new Rune spell as being trained in the mythical connection to one of your god's deeds involving / acquiring that spell.  Maybe that's just me, but I interpret 'in the temple' as not just meaning to be at the physical location, but also involving the instruction available there. 

It would make an interesting adventure for an adventurer to re-open and rehabilitate  a shrine whose priest or god-talker had been killed, overrun by broos and scorpion men.  Is the single rune magic spell obtainable there, a function of the site?  Or of the priest / god-talker who used to be there? 

Does the adventurer have to do anything special to become the proprietor of the shrine? It says that to tend a site gives the benefit of replenishing rune points there (p.315).   God-talkers "are often the only people to tend shrines"   and it seems to me that they need appointment to "vacancies", referred to on p.278.  I would think he or she might have to get the blessing of the temple to take up a god-talker position.  Is it that way in your Glorantha?  But on the other hand, in case of disaster maybe just cleansing the place and resuming sacrifice of MPs there would be enough to restore the shrine to functionality.

Has this gotten too fat from the original 'rune spells vs. spirit spells' intent of the thread/  Should I put it into its own topic?

 

.

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Squaredeal Sten
question

[Scotty]

22 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Has this gotten too fat from the original 'rune spells vs. spirit spells' intent of the thread/  Should I put it into its own topic?

Yes.

[Squaredeal Sten]

12 hours ago, Scotty said:

Yes.

Done: