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Kloster

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The only disadvantage for layering soft leather or heavy cloth under hard armor is you add the ENC of both armor suits/pieces. However, you also added the Armor Points together.

Now, if you tried to layer hard armor with hard armor, then you ran into trouble. You added the Armor Points of both armor suits/pieces, but you tripled the ENC of the lesser hard armor.

Actually, what I was thinking of was that it was almost always more bulky than simply higher point armor (though almost always cheaper). As an example, soft leather under cuirboilli provided 4 armor points at an encumberance of 8.5 for total medium coverage; bezainted also provided 4 points of protection, but only had an encumberance of 7.5. On the other hand, the bezainted cost 563 p., while the leather + cuirboilli was only 295, so if you were at all tight for money, a few extra encumberance points might seem okay--but people locally were fairly avid about keeping their encumberance down as low as possible (probably because of its effect on spellcasting in RQ3).

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Don't forget that if you strike deliberately the weapon, you don't substract 1AP but the difference between AP and damage rolled.

A broadsword has 10 AP. If you do 12, it goes down to 8, not 9.

I'm quite aware, but if you're using a battleaxe with a D4 damage bonus, that still expects to take you three blows about to do the job, and of course against the typical weapon you're taking a 20% penalty to do so.

And the main advantage of hitting the weapon is that it is not protected by the shield. When your opponent has a hoplite shield (18 AP) or even a round (12 AP), that makes a BIG difference.

It was, however, no guarentee to solve the problem, and in the meantime the target was still hammering away on _you_.

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This campaign is in Prax. We use the cultural weapons, so Lunar characters use scimitars, and non lunar don't. And for the bastard sword, in Prax, they are hard to get and terribly expensive, at least with our GM. And considering the access to metal, I find this logical, and I continue using my broadsword.

That would make a difference; none of the local games were Gloranthan, and bastardswords weren't, on the whole, any harder to get ahold of than longswords.

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P68 of player book, you are right, but on the errata:

"Points for Overlapping Armor

As described above, it is possible to wear soft armor under another armor to provide added protection. Hard armor may not be worn under any other type of armor. In any case, the outer layer of armor must be heavier than the inner (i.e., have more armor points).

The interior soft armor adds its normal AP to the total armor at TWICE normal ENC cost."

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Perhaps I was remembering that, too. Its hard to be sure since I haven't run RQ in more than a decade, and it may be getting onto two.

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By the way, an average dark troll (+1D6 DB) with bludgeon 1 on his Maul (2D8) destroy a round shield (12 AP) in 3 shots. Not very long to obtain, especially if the target is parrying with the abovementioned shield.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

We rarerly, rarely saw anyone use two handed weapons, simply because shields were so attractive. And I have to note your statement is only true if he's _attacking_ the shield, for which I refer you to my other comments. If you're doing an average of 13.5 damage, most people would rather just wait for the target to fail his parry, since at the level where a Bludgeon 1 was all that was involved, it'd probably come up in a round or two, and at that point whatever location got hit was likely in for disablement, armor or not.

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If your weapon is a 1H weapon, you can't attack and parry with it in the same round. If I parry with my sword because I don't have a backup parrying weapon, I have to attack with my fists.

And a dagger is better than nothing.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Sorry, I'd forgotten we houseruled that one promptly, because its, basically, stupid. It means you can't use the rapier as a fencing weapon, for example. The rules themselves pretty much show the stupidity when you can attack and parry with a greatsword in the same round, but not a shortsword. Ask yourself which of those is faster to bring around after an attack some time...

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That's why I carry a backup weapon.

And spear users usually did too, but most people just didn't feel like dealing with the extra encumberance to have the opportunity to do a bit extra damage at the price of likely losing your weapon. Especially since there was no guarentee most of the damage wouldn't just be sucked up by the opponents parry.

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Sorry, I'd forgotten we houseruled that one promptly, because its, basically, stupid. It means you can't use the rapier as a fencing weapon, for example. The rules themselves pretty much show the stupidity when you can attack and parry with a greatsword in the same round, but not a shortsword. Ask yourself which of those is faster to bring around after an attack some time...

As an ex fencer (and I have done some sca like fights also), I can tell that what you say on the rapier is mostly true, but on the shortsword mostly false.

If you bring your weapon on the way of an incoming one, it is not directed anymore towards your adversary, and it is quite slow to bring back. And even with the rapier, you loose time. That's why most duelists were using parrying devices (Main Gauches, Lanterns, rolled up clothes) or were dodging.

What you descript is completely true for foil combat.

I would solve the problem by allowing the rapier to do it (like 2h weapons), but not the other weapons.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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And spear users usually did too, but most people just didn't feel like dealing with the extra encumberance to have the opportunity to do a bit extra damage at the price of likely losing your weapon. Especially since there was no guarentee most of the damage wouldn't just be sucked up by the opponents parry.

Different experiences. I don't say that what you say is false,but I have seen a lot of impaling strikes with swords. In fact, in a group, I was the only one to switch from one tactic to the other. The other players were always trying to impale.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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As an ex fencer (and I have done some sca like fights also), I can tell that what you say on the rapier is mostly true, but on the shortsword mostly false.

If you bring your weapon on the way of an incoming one, it is not directed anymore towards your adversary, and it is quite slow to bring back. And even

I'm sorry, but I've used shortswords in martial arts training, and its really not; the parry/attack process is of a piece, and easily takes place in less than the 10-12 seconds of an RQ melee. With all weapon parries there's an instant of vulnerability when you attack where its harder to parry, but that's part of what the whole parry roll represents as far as I can tell, since its just as true with a two handed weapon or an offhand weapon too.

I would solve the problem by allowing the rapier to do it (like 2h weapons), but not the other weapons.

While there may be weapons where its a defensible rule, I don't think they're nearly as broad a group as you're putting it to be; and there are two handed weapons its more true of than it is with most of the more handy one-handed one. I'll state flatly that any rule that says its easier to parry with a maul while attacking than with a shortsword is flatly incorrect.

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Different experiences. I don't say that what you say is false,but I have seen a lot of impaling strikes with swords. In fact, in a group, I was the only one to switch from one tactic to the other. The other players were always trying to impale.

I suspect that's why you think spare weapons are so necessary, though; if you're not addicted to that usage, or otherwise focus on impaling melee weapons, its not nearly as necessary to carry more than one backup.

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I suspect that's why you think spare weapons are so necessary, though; if you're not addicted to that usage, or otherwise focus on impaling melee weapons, its not nearly as necessary to carry more than one backup.

I have explained that the locked impale is not the only occasion I had to loose my weapon. Disarming, striking of the weapon and fumbles are the others. Perhaps am I unlucky, perhaps do I have a GM that use a lot of strange tactics (I do also, so I don't complain), perhaps am I wrong.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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...

While there may be weapons where its a defensible rule, I don't think they're nearly as broad a group as you're putting it to be; and there are two handed weapons its more true of than it is with most of the more handy one-handed one. I'll state flatly that any rule that says its easier to parry with a maul while attacking than with a shortsword is flatly incorrect.

I'm not putting a broad category. I'm proposing the rapier, which is a single weapon. The 2h rule is ... in the rules. I agree with you this one is stupid and present (in my mind) to give a little playability to the 2h weapons.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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I'm sorry, but I've used shortswords in martial arts training, and its really not; the parry/attack process is of a piece, and easily takes place in less than the 10-12 seconds of an RQ melee. With all weapon parries there's an instant of vulnerability when you attack where its harder to parry, but that's part of what the whole parry roll represents as far as I can tell, since its just as true with a two handed weapon or an offhand weapon too.

...

It is still slower than having a dedicated parrying device.

And the 12 sec MR is part of the conceptualization of combat of BRP (and all RPG. In ADD, a MR is 1 mn, IIRC).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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I think the house rule I used to use was that you could parry with any weapon (1H or 2H) as long as the attack you was not on the same SR as your attack (definately used statement of intent, so any delaying your attack would have had to have been declared at the beginning of the round).

Help kill a Trollkin here.

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I think the house rule I used to use was that you could parry with any weapon (1H or 2H) as long as the attack you was not on the same SR as your attack (definately used statement of intent, so any delaying your attack would have had to have been declared at the beginning of the round).

That was in the errata for RQ3 too.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Delaying was in the palyer book, but you would have had to declare the delay in the Statement of Intent Phase. If you chose to parry on your strike rank instead of attack we allowed it but then applied the changing action rule, so any new attack would go off 3 SR plus normal weapon SR from the point you switched actions - which generally meant no attack. You would need a melee SR of 3 to get off an attack at SR 9 if you changed your attack to a parry at SR 3.

Help kill a Trollkin here.

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I'm sorry, but I've used shortswords in martial arts training, and its really not; the parry/attack process is of a piece, and easily takes place in less than the 10-12 seconds of an RQ melee. With all weapon parries there's an instant of vulnerability when you attack where its harder to parry, but that's part of what the whole parry roll represents as far as I can tell, since its just as true with a two handed weapon or an offhand weapon too.

I've done some short stick training (Escrima-Kali-Arnis, Filippino martial arts) and gone a couple of full contact fights with only a fencing mask and hockey gloves for protection (dog brother-style). While we would train various parries while practicing, they were rarely used while sparring or fighting, as they slowed you down (at least as long as you fought with only one stick). Dodging and multiple attacks was the way to go.

But you're completely right conscerning the 2h weapons.

SGL.

Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub!
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I've done some short stick training (Escrima-Kali-Arnis, Filippino martial arts) and gone a couple of full contact fights with only a fencing mask and hockey gloves for protection (dog brother-style). While we would train various parries while practicing, they were rarely used while sparring or fighting, as they slowed you down (at least as long as you fought with only one stick). Dodging and multiple attacks was the way to go.

But you're completely right conscerning the 2h weapons.

SGL.

Different styles have different approaches of course; some don't do parrying much and concentrate on dodges. However almost all fencing styles that are based around controlling the width of facing presented to an oppoenent are based around parrying, including ones much more serious than epee such as saber. I'm not sure how well parrying works with a mace for example, but I've certainly seen it done as the primary defense method in tactics using single asian broadsword.

The issue isn't whether it was common or not; the issue is whether its doable. I think I have to conclude it is.

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Different styles have different approaches of course; some don't do parrying much and concentrate on dodges. However almost all fencing styles that are based around controlling the width of facing presented to an oppoenent are based around parrying, including ones much more serious than epee such as saber. I'm not sure how well parrying works with a mace for example, but I've certainly seen it done as the primary defense method in tactics using single asian broadsword.

The issue isn't whether it was common or not; the issue is whether its doable. I think I have to conclude it is.

Of course it is feasible. I just told that parrying with your attack weapon means removing it from it's direction, and is slower than dodging or parrying with another weapon, wether dagger, main gauche, shield, lantern or cape.

If most duels in the 3 musketeers period were done with 2 weapons is not a random fact.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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Of course it is feasible. I just told that parrying with your attack weapon means removing it from it's direction, and is slower than dodging or parrying with another weapon, wether dagger, main gauche, shield, lantern or cape.

Neither is true. In fact, fencing parries often involve exactly removing the opponents weapon in the same process as the attack; you beat the weapon out of the way and follow throw with a cut or thrust. Dodging by its nature _can't_ be faster than that, because you're moving more mass--often your whole body.

Care to give a citation to two weapon technique being the dominant one during the fencing period? I don't question it occured--it obviously did, but much of that was because you could do a _bind_ and still attack that way, something you can't do with a single, non-flexible weapon. But I have no evidence its actually superior for parrying, per se, unlike the obvious advantage present with a shield.

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