Value of Scrolls

[soltakss]

I am brushing up on a Treasure Generator for RQ2, using the Treasure Factor rules in RQ2 and the item costs in RQ2 and Griffin Mountain (Gonn Orta) but cannot find anywhere where it states the value of scrolls.

Now, I am sure that a map to a treasure hoard won't be worth much in itself, but the training scrolls would be worth a bit, but I cannot find any references to their values.

Eventually, I'll convert them to RQG, but need to get the base costs right first.

Does anyone know where the cost/value of scrolls are stated?

[Baron Wulfraed]

Skipping ahead some... Probably comes down to the cost of materials (papyrus/parchment), the labor of the scribe (RQ:RiG gives that), and maybe the time of whoever is the knowledge expert for the subject of the scroll (which covers the first copy, if the subject expert is narrating; probably gets more expensive if the scribe needs to illustrate poses [think a manual of fencing, or some intro to unarmed combat])

Write Letter is listed as 2L per page, Contract at 4L per page.

 

[David Scott]

9 hours ago, soltakss said:

Does anyone know where the cost/value of scrolls are stated?

No. The only reference I've every found is entry 77 & 137, in the The Maze Of Shaxy Oborok in the RuneQuest Companion. 

[Glyph]

10 hours ago, soltakss said:

Now, I am sure that a map to a treasure hoard won't be worth much in itself,

A treasure map is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it - I think Olaf the Storyteller (from the Griselda stories) said something like 'it's a sure bet more money is made selling treasure maps than following them..'

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Glyph said:

A treasure map is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it - I think Olaf the Storyteller (from the Griselda stories) said something like 'it's a sure bet more money is made selling treasure maps than following them..'

You aren't selling a treasure map, you're selling a dream.

[Ludo Bagman]

In SoloQuest 3 there are two scrolls listed with value:

• #12: A scroll for Throw Javelin +20% in Firespeech - worth 1000L to a Yelmalio temple, 500L to other cults that use javelins (this seems a little too low in my opinion)
• #108: A certificate that allows to train Reading and Writing Firespeech for a season (8 weeks) in a Yelmalio temple - the value depends on the training costs, usually 3200L (this can easily be converted to RQG).

[Joerg]

Spoiler

Apple Lane

(at least the classic pdf) has a few scrolls as possible loot, written in a different, slightly obscure language, hence probably less marketable. It was pointed out to me that the value of the loot may have changed between editions.

A skill or ability scroll should cost at least in the region of hiring a trainer to achieve a similar raise using the guaranteed increments. Not being able to read the script or language will lower the price a buyer will be willing to pay, but a buyer reasonably fluent in both may become the equivalent of a trainer.

 

I don't see any indication that these scrolls can be read only once, or any prohibition against copying them (other than ability to speak, read and write the language, and sufficient knowledge of the skill to avoid mis-interpretations. (Which may be a certain number of percentiles above what the scroll teaches.)

Creating a translation adds equivalent levels in the target language and script as a prerequisite.

A master of a skill creating a scroll from scratch probably takes several times the time to train a student to that level, and as likely gets capped by the creator's Speak Language, Read/Write Language, and actual knowledge in the skill.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Apple Lane

(at least the classic pdf) has a few scrolls as possible loot, written in a different, slightly obscure language, hence probably less marketable. It was pointed out to me that the value of the loot may have changed between editions.

A skill or ability scroll should cost at least in the region of hiring a trainer to achieve a similar raise using the guaranteed increments. Not being able to read the script or language will lower the price a buyer will be willing to pay, but a buyer reasonably fluent in both may become the equivalent of a trainer.

 

I don't see any indication that these scrolls can be read only once, or any prohibition against copying them (other than ability to speak, read and write the language, and sufficient knowledge of the skill to avoid mis-interpretations. (Which may be a certain number of percentiles above what the scroll teaches.)

Creating a translation adds equivalent levels in the target language and script as a prerequisite.

A master of a skill creating a scroll from scratch probably takes several times the time to train a student to that level, and as likely gets capped by the creator's Speak Language, Read/Write Language, and actual knowledge in the skill.

 

Considering that the instructional scroll can be re-sold after the purchaser (or looter) does his or her training - that scroll should be worth more than the standard training cost for the skill in question.  Almost twice as much: You get the value of the training and then you get your cash too. 

Probably worth maximum  value to a Lankhor Mhy who can copy it - or to the LM temple who can set an industrial process going.  

Wouldn't your player whose character is low CHA like "How to make friends and influence people" in his native script?  How much is he willing to pay, just as an experiment? 

 

 

[soltakss]

On 8/2/2021 at 8:41 AM, David Scott said:

he only reference I've every found is entry 77 & 137, in the The Maze Of Shaxy Oborok in the RuneQuest Companion. 

Thanks, I'll check that out.

On 8/2/2021 at 4:50 PM, Ludo Bagman said:

In SoloQuest 3 there are two scrolls listed with value:

• #12: A scroll for Throw Javelin +20% in Firespeech - worth 1000L to a Yelmalio temple, 500L to other cults that use javelins (this seems a little too low in my opinion)
• #108: A certificate that allows to train Reading and Writing Firespeech for a season (8 weeks) in a Yelmalio temple - the value depends on the training costs, usually 3200L (this can easily be converted to RQG).

That is useful, thanks.

22 hours ago, Joerg said:

(at least the classic pdf) has a few scrolls as possible loot, written in a different, slightly obscure language, hence probably less marketable. It was pointed out to me that the value of the loot may have changed between editions.

Great, thanks, I'll check that out as well.

14 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Considering that the instructional scroll can be re-sold after the purchaser (or looter) does his or her training - that scroll should be worth more than the standard training cost for the skill in question.  Almost twice as much: You get the value of the training and then you get your cash too. 

We used to pass them around, or have a class where everyone read the scroll and got the benefit of the training, then we sold them.

[Bill the barbarian]

On 8/2/2021 at 3:43 AM, PhilHibbs said:

You aren't selling a treasure map, you're selling a dream.

I have heard that before, in reference to lottery tickets.

[Bill the barbarian]

23 hours ago, Joerg said:

A skill or ability scroll should cost at least in the region of hiring a trainer to achieve a similar raise using the guaranteed increments. Not being able to read the script or language will lower the price a buyer will be willing to pay, but a buyer reasonably fluent in both may become the equivalent of a trainer.

 

A good, point, knowing a price does not mean a buyer will pay that price. Until sold the value is less relevant.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I have heard that before, in reference to lottery tickets.

And software.

[dumuzid]

How did 'training scrolls' work mechanically?  That's not treasure I've encountered in modern RQG

[Squaredeal Sten]

4 hours ago, dumuzid said:

How did 'training scrolls' work mechanically?  That's not treasure I've encountered in modern RQG

As far as I can see, they would be used in Researching a given skill or characteristic improvement.  Instead of your character searching through a library or observing other people who display what you want, then theorizing successfully or unsuccessfully about how to improve, these scrolls are right on the money for what you want and provide the distilled experience of an expert in (fill in the blank) who wrote them to tell you exactly how to improve.  And you don't have to find and hire an expert as you would for Training. 

So to me, they would provide a boost to your character's skill or characteristic Research [IAW pp.417-418 of RQG]. 

It would probably make x% of skill  improvement a sure thing, up to a maximum of 75%;  alternatively  allow skill improvement of 1d6% or 1d8% or even 1d10% improvement instead of the standard 1d6-2% (Yes, ordinary research can give you a skill loss!).  

Or characteristic STR, CON, DEX, or CHA improvement of 1D3 instead of 1D3-1, up to species max.

This Research would still take just as long, though.   The book can tell you how to lift weights to improve your STR, but I expect it's not magical, so your muscles still take two seasons to improve.

Specifics depend on the source / the GM's generosity.

 

[SDLeary]

23 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Specifics depend on the source / the GM's generosity.

...And the honesty of the source selling them to you, swearing that it will make you a god! 😉

SDLeary

[PhilHibbs]

9 hours ago, dumuzid said:

How did 'training scrolls' work mechanically?  That's not treasure I've encountered in modern RQG

Just like this

[Rob Darvall]

10 hours ago, dumuzid said:

How did 'training scrolls' work mechanically?  That's not treasure I've encountered in modern RQG

Potentially like the fechtbuch of the late middle ages onward. Technique described (with varying degrees of clarity) and hopefully accompanied by useful illustration. A good fechbuch could also increase the writer's Reputation, if he studies his Agrippa.

[dumuzid]

Thanks @Squaredeal Sten, those are all good suggestions.  You frame all that sort of...theoretically, though?  As in, you're speculating about ways they could be used.  What I want to know is the mechanics of these items in the edition they were released.  Surely if @Ludo Bagman came across an item as specific as a training scroll of "+20% Throw Javelin" there's some indication somewhere of what that actually meant in practice. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by dumuzid

[David Scott]

12 hours ago, dumuzid said:

How did 'training scrolls' work mechanically?  That's not treasure I've encountered in modern RQG

It's covered in RQ2 (RQ Classic page 106).

There are three types of this kind on the table, you need to make a reading skill to use them!

• Characteristic increase - 1D20 weeks to implement, and increases STR, CON, DEX or CHA. eg +1 STR, takes 13 weeks.
• Secret technique scroll - 1D4x5% increase in one of the weapons on the Weapon Training Table, but not above 75%
• Secrets of general abilities scroll - 1D4x5% increase in the ability and all special skills tied to the ability! but not above 75%.

We used the training cost & time on page 12 to work out how long it would take for the last two. So using a +15% Secret Technique of sword with an initial skill of 40% would be, 500L x 2 for 40-50%, then 1000L for 50-55 for a total of 1500L training (Weapon Training Cost Table page 26). Divide by 400L to get the number of weeks for full time training, so 3 weeks and 4.5 days.

[PhilHibbs]

I think there should be some rare ancient scrolls around that give +5% but only for skills over 100. And there should be a chance that the scroll crumbles and is made useless every time it is used. And copying them requires the GM secretly rolling a special success on the pertinent skill to avoid making a mistake and rendering the copy not only useless but maybe actively harmful.

[Squaredeal Sten]

10 hours ago, dumuzid said:

Thanks @Squaredeal Sten, those are all good suggestions.  You frame all that sort of...theoretically, though?  As in, you're speculating about ways they could be used.  What I want to know is the mechanics of these items in the edition they were released.  Surely if @Ludo Bagman came across an item as specific as a training scroll of "+20% Throw Javelin" there's some indication somewhere of what that actually meant in practice. 

if GM'ng the '+20% throw javelin" scroll,  with no other info?  I'd have to define some stuff as the GM before I let them gain that scroll..

I would personally define that one as:  Enables the player to do skill Research rolls on the javelin skill, without having to do the Experience rolls to succeed, (but having to do a read/write roll to use the scroll).  And for several seasons of this Research to gain +1d20% on javelin skill per season  up to a maximum total of  +20%, but not to exceed 75% skill before characteristic bonuses. 

In contrast to the usual skill Research roll of 1d6-2%, this one has no downside: if you roll a 1 your skill doesn't go down.

That's how I would do it.  YGMV.

 

[soltakss]

3 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

if GM'ng the '+20% throw javelin" scroll,  with no other info?  I'd have to define some stuff as the GM before I let them gain that scroll..

In our RQ2/RQ3 Camapign, we simply gave an increase of the stated amount after the stated time of study. So, if it gave a +20 to your skill and takes 5 weeks then you got +20 after 5 weeks of study. no need to roll or anything, that's the advantage of the scroll.

I am thinking of putting a value of the amount you would normally pay for the training, so 500L, in RQG.

[dumuzid]

14 minutes ago, soltakss said:

n our RQ2/RQ3 Camapign, we simply gave an increase of the stated amount after the stated time of study. So, if it gave a +20 to your skill and takes 5 weeks then you got +20 after 5 weeks of study. no need to roll or anything, that's the advantage of the scroll.

this was my thinking more or less exactly

[Baron Wulfraed]

1 hour ago, dumuzid said:

this was my thinking more or less exactly

RQ2 general scroll rules include having to make a successful READ <Language> (if one fails, they may not reattempt until they've raised the READ skill by 5%).

{Granted, RQ:RiG does make that a bit easier, since it is defined that Esrolian and Heortling written text is mutually readable, even if the spoken isn't.