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Eurmalian illumination


Elcid321

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4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

While I can see the term Occlusion being specific to the Lunar Empire, I also doubt the non-Lunar Illuminates don't suffer from it.  We might simply term it megalomania, particularly the thoughts that you are freed from all obligations, or even have achieved a god-like state.

My point is being liberated from conscience and culture makes you more susceptible to delusion, not less.

My example, a tricker lie spell would almost certainly fail to convince a non illuminated storm bull to embrace chaos, because they fundamentally know this choice is wrong. Completely outrageous lies can be rejected because they are outrageous. 
 

But an illuminate no longer has the comfort of such certainty, they no longer think anything is outrageous. They would not find the idea of embracing chaos automatically repugnant. A trickster lie spell could more easily deceive them, to do something stupid.

Edited by EricW
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3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

As far as I understand, the TERM "occlusion" was coined by/used by the Lunars, to basically describe Illuminates whose worldview they regarded as wrong (like Sheng, for example). Given that it is, as far as I understand it, effectively an opinion and not something objectively concrete, it could be borrowed and applied to... well, basically any Illuminate whose conclusions you find wrong. 

I think the most widespread usage I've seen out-of-universe, is as a term for those Illuminates who embrace thier Illumination as a path to power (cf. Jajagappa's megalomania comment above) as opposed to the more renunciate and less involved Illuminates that orthodox mystic traditions tend to produce. This, obviously, puts Lunar Illuminates (who are the absolute vast majority of Illuminates in central Genertela) in a really interesting spot, given their obvious temporal-political agenda, at least collectively, if not necessarily individually.

Well, Occlusion has relatively specific meaning, in that it refers to a kind of solipsistic attitude. So it's quite possible for someone to be illuminated and come to the wrong conclusions without being Occluded, within those terms, while at the same time being a fairly easy way to explain someone's nasty behavior- obviously, they've forgotten that the one is many!

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6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

While I can see the term Occlusion being specific to the Lunar Empire, I also doubt the non-Lunar Illuminates don't suffer from it.  We might simply term it megalomania, particularly the thoughts that you are freed from all obligations, or even have achieved a god-like state.

The failure of Ingolf and the inability of Isgangdrang and their disciples to attain True Dragonhood may be the draconic equivalent.

Sheng's personal decision against attaining the Ultimate (or Bodhisattvahood) and grasping the world of entanglements may be occlusion in its ultimate form. Sheng is supposed to be the Other of the Red Goddess (though not Sedenya).

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5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

As far as I understand, the TERM "occlusion" was coined by/used by the Lunars, to basically describe Illuminates whose worldview they regarded as wrong…

Er, TBH it was coined by me as a Lunar term for what the Nysalor cult writeup calls the dark side of illumination. (When you’re working within a Carmanian-Stygian-Spolite framework, that language is kinda absurd and misleading). Greg Stafford liked the word and adopted it for ILH-2. It’s not a uniquely Lunar problem, it’s the Lunar name for a problem that Illuminates (and mystics in general) occasionally run aground on: mistaking your personal desires for those of the Cosmos.

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On 8/25/2021 at 6:27 PM, soltakss said:

Non-Lunar Illuminates don't suffer from occlusion.

The Lunars would probably say that all non-Lunar illuminates are occluded. Well, some would. Maybe I just think that because I'm occluded. Long live the Popular Occluded Front! (one for all the meteorologists out there)

18 hours ago, EricW said:

My point is being liberated from conscience and culture makes you more susceptible to delusion, not less.

I can see why a non-illuminate might believe that.

Edited by PhilHibbs
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8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Long live the Popular Occluded Front! (one for all the meteorologists out there)

No need to call in the Crater Makers...

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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On 8/25/2021 at 9:35 PM, Akhôrahil said:

I personally doubt this, although I do think the Lunar style of cheap expediated conveyor belt Illumination does significantly worse than other styles.

and

On 8/25/2021 at 10:38 PM, jajagappa said:

While I can see the term Occlusion being specific to the Lunar Empire, I also doubt the non-Lunar Illuminates don't suffer from it.  We might simply term it megalomania, particularly the thoughts that you are freed from all obligations, or even have achieved a god-like state.

Non-Lunar Illuminates don't care about Occlusion.

Sure, it might apply to them but it isn't a problem for them.

Occlusion is simply that the Illuminate does not see the full Lunar Way, so has fallen short. For non-Lunars that is not an issue.

 

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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On 8/26/2021 at 4:11 AM, Eff said:

Well, Occlusion has relatively specific meaning, in that it refers to a kind of solipsistic attitude. So it's quite possible for someone to be illuminated and come to the wrong conclusions without being Occluded, within those terms, while at the same time being a fairly easy way to explain someone's nasty behavior- obviously, they've forgotten that the one is many!

Illuminates know that there is no such thing as "come to the wrong conclusions".

Lunars want a controlled, ritual illumination that fits their worldview, so see their Illuminates who do not reach that as failed, or Occluded.

Some non-Illuminates see Illumination as Bright Side/Dark Side, but that is not really the case. Illumination is simply Illumination. anything more is simply a case of putting rules around Illuminates and Illumination, controlling how they behave and so on. Occlusion is the same, it is a way of controlling those Illuminates who have not followed the Lunar Way.

On 8/26/2021 at 3:10 AM, EricW said:

But an illuminate no longer has the comfort of such certainty, they no longer think anything is outrageous. They would not find the idea of embracing chaos automatically repugnant. A trickster lie spell could more easily deceive them, to do something stupid.

I like that argument.

Illumination makes people more open to persuasion.

 

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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21 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Non-Lunar Illuminates don't care about Occlusion.

They may not use the concept, but I would assume that they’re concerned about ”bad Illuminates”. Surely they would think something went wrong with Sheng Seleris, and that he turned out spiritually defective?

And Illuminates embracing Chaos seems to be a specifically Nysalorean thing - I don’t think we see it in Draconic Illumination (they accept dragons instead)?

Edited by Akhôrahil
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1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

They may not use the concept, but I would assume that they’re concerned about ”bad Illuminates”. Surely they would think something went wrong with Sheng Seleris, and that he turned out spiritually defective?

That's other people, though.

Other people turned out bad.

Illuminates know that Illumination is personal for them. They don't really care what other Illuminates think, or do.

The trouble starts when Illuminates band together into cults or organised societies. Then they have rules and people not following those rules are seen as bad.

If they didn't have rules then no Illuminates would be seen as being bad.

So, Eumali Illuminates could be one of the purest forms, as they don't follow rules either.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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Eh, I mean, the East Isles have long traditions of mysticism that seem to result in what we would call Illumination (I THINK?), and I'd presume that in order to preserve these traditions, there is some kind of organization, whether that be mountain hermitages or wandering sages or what have you. 

EDIT: Kralorelans also don't seem to hyped about the Immanent Masters using draconic powers openly.

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Non-Lunar Illuminates don't care about Occlusion.

Sure, it might apply to them but it isn't a problem for them.

Yes, that makes sense.  A Lunar Illuminate would see them as Occluded.  Other Illuminates might or might not put some label upon them - not from a "social" perspective, but simply from a clash of rival personalities.  But they would not personally see that - they are, after all, Illuminated so in their own view, they can use and abuse the world as they see fit. 

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8 hours ago, soltakss said:

Occlusion is simply that the Illuminate does not see the full Lunar Way, so has fallen short. For non-Lunars that is not an issue.

That’s not what it means. But I wouldn’t expect you to understand that. 😜

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On 8/25/2021 at 1:35 PM, Akhôrahil said:

I personally doubt this, although I do think the Lunar style of cheap expediated conveyor belt Illumination does significantly worse than other styles.

Given that Argrath is following the "cheap expedited conveyor belt illumination" for thousands of his special units, the Hero Wars will prove interesting.

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On 8/27/2021 at 10:41 AM, Ali the Helering said:

Surely the POC are the extremist Helerings...😇

When it comes to meteorology, don't go for the lesser evil.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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On 8/26/2021 at 3:10 AM, EricW said:

But an illuminate no longer has the comfort of such certainty, they no longer think anything is outrageous. They would not find the idea of embracing chaos automatically repugnant. A trickster lie spell could more easily deceive them, to do something stupid.

21 hours ago, soltakss said:

I like that argument.

Illumination makes people more open to persuasion.

No, it makes them more open to the truth.

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In your Gloranthas, illumination may be nothing more than lies and nonsense and self-deceit, in which case your statements are perfectly fine. Or, your illumination may just be a removal of certain cognitive barriers which can just as easily lead us to believe nonsense as allow us to see a hidden truth.

I don't see it that way, I think riddling is what allows us to see the hidden truth. Yes, riddling can also deceive us into believing nonsense, and trickster magic may be related to that.

Can illuminates be riddled into believing nonsense? Sure, but no more than anyone else, and possibly less so because having been riddled, and possibly being a riddler themselves, they know more about the process.

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29 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Can illuminates be riddled into believing nonsense? Sure, but no more than anyone else, and possibly less so because having been riddled, and possibly being a riddler themselves, they know more about the process.

I think that the argument is that the Illuminate has an open mind, and as such may be inclined to at least listen to and consider taboo, heretical or merely contra-culture notions that a non-Illuminate would simply reject out of hand. The average Vargast doesn't even have to come up with arguments against cannibalism or incest, while the Illuminate might go, "yes, why shouldn't I do that?" and if he or she can't come up with a reason...

Or quoting another game: "An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded."

Edited by Akhôrahil
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1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

No, it makes them more open to the truth.

I would argue it makes them more open, not necessarily to the truth. 

From Dorastor - Land of Doom;

Quote

Arkat claimed that Nysalor was a liar who promised one thing and gave another Arkat said that those who followed Nysalor were unable to tell the difference between good and evil, and that they were thus inevitably corrupted by their powers and beliefs. Arkat taught that the dark side of Nysalor is not, as one might expect, merely alignment with chaos. It is a more subtle temptation. Once a being believes that there is no final difference between chaos and law, he may make a similar but false parallel between his personal ethics and his personal desires, reasoning that since there is no ultimate division to the former, neither is there any final difference between the latter. However both law and chaos create in different ways, and all creativity rests upon cooperation between elements of existence. He who operates solely from personal desire acknowledges no natural constraints. Without cooperation and creativity, the being is a parasite, living off or stealing the products of others without exchange. Nothing he can do or make can add to the sum of his species or culture.

It doesn't matter whether Arkat or Nysalor were right. They both believed diametrically different things. That in itself is proof that illumination does not give illuminates some ultimate key to the truth, it simply gives them more degrees of freedom.

What about trickster lie spell? From the Red Book of Magic;

Quote

 

This spell can be cast undetectably right as a trickster tells a lie. It cannot be resisted. Anyone hearing the lie automatically believes it to be true, no matter how outrageous it is. They continue to believe it until they have incontrovertible evidence of its falsehood, or for at least one full melee round in any case. For example, if a trickster used this spell to tell a Yelm priest that the Sun wasn’t going to rise tomorrow, it would cause a great deal of panic until the next morning, or until the priest performed Divination and asked their deity what had happened, or until the end of the full melee round after the spell was cast.

Those who hear the lie secondhand are not forced to believe it and can try to talk the original hearers out of their misguided belief.

 

My point is, on what basis would an illuminate reject a lie about the need for them to embrace chaos?

If a trickster told a non-illuminated Storm Bull such a lie, they would believe it for a round, then reject it - the idea of embracing chaos would be utterly revolting. Lets hope the trickster knows how to run.

An illuminated Storm Bull wouldn't feel such revulsion, so they are more likely to simply accept the lie. It would seem perfectly reasonable to them, as would almost any other course of action suggested by the lying Trickster.

Hence my argument that in this circumstance at least, illumination makes a person more gullible. 

Edited by EricW
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Given that the provided example is of a priest of Yelm being convinced by the spell until it's physically proved wrong (by divination or seeing the sun rise tomorrow), and the constancy of the Sun being proverbial and all that, if an ordinary Storm Bull was immune to a Trickster saying this, that would seem to suggest not that Illumination makes you gullible and vulnerable, but that Storm Bulls are the dumbest, most bullheaded motherfuckers in Glorantha and it takes Illumination for them to have the capacity for doubt and inquiry. 

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The Thelxinoë of the Graclodont set.

Eight Arms and the Mask

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48 minutes ago, EricW said:

It doesn't matter whether Arkat or Nysalor were right. They both believed diametrically different things. That in itself is proof that illumination does not give illuminates some ultimate key to the truth, it simply gives them more degrees of freedom.

The flaw in that argument is that they were both right.

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