Eurmalian illumination

[Sir_Godspeed]

The point here is that Illumination is a profound, transformative personal experience with the All, the Ultimate. Illumination is not something you learn, but something you go through. The knowledge one has forms the context around the experience, the context which leads one to make specific conclusions about one's experience. 

It's the old "blind men describing an elephant by touch" thing, basically. So it would be bizarre if people DIDN'T profoundly disagree.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 hours ago, EricW said:

My point is, on what basis would an illuminate reject a lie about the need for them to embrace chaos?

If a trickster told a non-illuminated Storm Bull such a lie, they would believe it for a round, then reject it

This is probably what should happen.  However, as pointed out by @Effthe example in the rules explicitly contradicts you.

The best description of the Lie spell comes from a long time RQ friend.

"The Lie spell has never not been broken".  Just with RQG it happens more often.

[simonh]

On 8/26/2021 at 3:10 AM, EricW said:

My example, a tricker lie spell would almost certainly fail to convince a non illuminated storm bull to embrace chaos, because they fundamentally know this choice is wrong. Completely outrageous lies can be rejected because they are outrageous. 

The example given in the Lie spell description, that the sun won't rise tomorrow, is also outrageous.

It depends what the actual lie is. "Embrace Chaos" isn't a lie, it's not a fact. You can't use Lie to issue an order, only to deceive about a specific fact or belief and hope that inspires the desired outcome.

In the example it says the priest of Yelm could try finding out what is going on using Divination, so while the victim believes the lie, they can still act to try and get more information. Not necessarily to falsify it as such, they believe it is true so they don't doubt the lie itself, but they're likely to be confused and seek clarification if the lie contradicts other things they know or believe to be true.

Lie is deep magic and it's why I made the comment about Gbaji (or was it Rashoran?) being a mask of Eurmal. I see a close correlation between how Eurmal distributes Death to all the gods, so everyone has a bit of this power, with how Rashoran teaches them all Illumination. Also the way that both illumination and death aren't problems for the gods the same way they are for mortals. Chaos is the death of the cosmos, but it's also it's origin. The godtime isn't history, it's not an era in the past, it's happening all the time right now powering magic and the cycles of the world. Chaos is creating and destroying the universe right now. That's what time is. That's the truth.

Or did I just cast a Lie spell. How would you know?

[Eff]

5 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

This is probably what should happen.  However, as pointed out by @Effthe example in the rules explicitly contradicts you.

The best description of the Lie spell comes from a long time RQ friend.

"The Lie spell has never not been broken".  Just with RQG it happens more often.

I do want to point out that it seems Lie only applies to single statements. So if you used it to tell a Storm Bull they needed to embrace Chaos, they would understand those exact words. They could interpret that as "I need to talk to these Seven Mothers people", or "I need to hug a broo", or "I need to kill Chaos monsters by squeezing them to death in a bear hug". But I don't think a Trickster can actually rewrite their worldview on the fly. 

[EricW]

3 hours ago, Eff said:

I do want to point out that it seems Lie only applies to single statements. So if you used it to tell a Storm Bull they needed to embrace Chaos, they would understand those exact words. They could interpret that as "I need to talk to these Seven Mothers people", or "I need to hug a broo", or "I need to kill Chaos monsters by squeezing them to death in a bear hug". But I don't think a Trickster can actually rewrite their worldview on the fly. 

“Drink that ooze, the chaos power it will give you is the only way you can defeat the monster, and prevent a greater eruption of chaos.”

An illuminate has no problem with the end justifies the means, but a Storm Bull who is not illuminated knows using chaos to strengthen yourself against chaos is fundamentally wrong.

[Joerg]

A single Lie spell works best as a medium to convey a provable truth that is doubted by the recipient. Multiple castings can create a network of false, but mutually supporting statements, a bit like the Bielefeld conspiracy.

Or less innocent recent disinformation campaigns...

[soltakss]

34 minutes ago, EricW said:

“Drink that ooze, the chaos power it will give you is the only way you can defeat the monster, and prevent a greater eruption of chaos.”

“Drink that ooze and it will give you power to defeat the monster, it won't hurt you”. Lies work best if they contain an element of truth.

For me, as a GM, I rarely use the letter of the law when using spells such as Lie. I much prefer to go with the spirit of the spell.

[PhilHibbs]

4 minutes ago, soltakss said:

“Drink that ooze and it will give you power to defeat the monster, it won't hurt you”. Lies work best if they contain an element of truth.

One lie only. They won't believe the second "it won't hurt you" statement.

But that's getting into the specifics of a RuneQuest spell, which is inappropriate for this forum, for which I apologise.

Edited August 29, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[soltakss]

6 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

One lie only. They won't believe the second "it won't hurt you" statement.

The first part is not a lie, though, it will give you a power.

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

A single Lie spell works best as a medium to convey a provable truth that is doubted by the recipient.

Technically, it explicitly has to be a lie, not merely any statement.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Technically, it explicitly has to be a lie, not merely any statement.

Just add "you understand that" in front of the statement.

[PhilHibbs]

If we want to get into the weeds of a Lie spell interpretation discussion, this thread and forum isn't the place.

[Ali the Helering]

Both/and, rather than either/or                  

[scott-martin]

On 8/29/2021 at 4:50 PM, Joerg said:

A single Lie spell works best as a medium to convey a provable truth that is doubted by the recipient. Multiple castings can create a network of false, but mutually supporting statements, a bit like the Bielefeld conspiracy.

Maybe Eurmal is to Nysalor as Lie is to Riddle. Keep casting it on someone and the cumulative effect will drive them out of fact-based consciousness sooner or later.

And then I realized (sometimes I'm slow) that illumination serves the Compromise in some ways but undermines it in its radical subjectivity. Young Elementals cults promise something similar.

[simonh]

On 8/30/2021 at 9:04 AM, PhilHibbs said:

If we want to get into the weeds of a Lie spell interpretation discussion, this thread and forum isn't the place.

I think it's legit here because we're discussing it in the context of what it means in Glorantha and in relation to other things we know about Glorantha, not in the context of using it in a game.

[RHW]

Illuminated tricksters don't illuminate anyone. They just tell a lot of jokes which either aren't really funny until you think about it a bit, or are really funny... until you think about it a bit. 

If they make you realize that all creation is just a giant joke and if you can laugh at it, you can do anything, well... it's not their fault if you actually get it.

Knock knock.

Who's there?

Arkat.

Arkat who?

Arkat Witch!

Which witch?

Exactly.