100 Roll When Flipping Digits

[Stan Shinn]

I am working on a d100 homebrew game, and I'd like to include the mechanic where under certain conditions (such as a critical hit) you flip the digits (so a 30 becomes an 03).

I'm trying to remember how games that use this 'flip the digit' mechanic handle things when you roll a 100. Does a roll of 100 ("00" and "0") remains a 100 even when flipped? What's the best way to handle that? 

I seem to recall Warhammer Fantasy RPG doing this but I don't have access to the rulebooks at present.

🙂 

[Joerg]

Warhammer FRP used the flipped d100 success roll to determine the hit location (to be looked up on a table). You might be able to find other different outcomes for a success in non-combat rolls.

[yojimbo]

Zweihander (a WFRP retro-clone) uses flip to succeed and flip to fail as an equivalent of advantage/disadvantage in D&D. Talents allow you to flip to succeed and negative conditions cause you to flip to fail. The idea was probably originated in Unknown Armies 1st Edition which has a similar mechanism.

[Stan Shinn]

So on both Warhammer FRP and Zweihander, does flipping a '100' (a '00' and a '0') still give you a result of '100'?

Thanks in advance 🙂

-- Stan

[Mugen]

2 minutes ago, Stan Shinn said:

So on both Warhammer FRP and Zweihander, does flipping a '100' (a '00' and a '0') still give you a result of '100'?

Thanks in advance 🙂

-- Stan

I don't remember any exception to the rule, neither for 00 nor 11, 22, 33, etc.

[lawrence.whitaker]

Mythras also has a flip mechanic using Luck Points.

'00' is always a failure and a fumble, and no amount of flipping will help you. However, if you roll 10, you can flip to gain 01.

[g33k]

As far as I know, *ALL* the d% systems that flip, don't work on the 1/10 that are doubled digits (11%, 22%, 33%, etc).

These results "do nothing different" when flipped.

 

[Stan Shinn]

Thanks everyone! This gives me the clarity I was needing 🙂

[Ian Absentia]

Unknown Armies featured a similar flipping mechanic, though I forget how it was implemented.  It also had a clever method for calculating special/critical rolls.  Each double-digit of a skill level (i.e., 11, 22, 33, etc.) was assigned a special effect -- roughly 10% of whatever skill level you possess  That's neither here nor there, but it filled the gap for un-flippable die results.

!i!

[Stan Shinn]

3 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Unknown Armies featured a similar flipping mechanic, though I forget how it was implemented.  It also had a clever method for calculating special/critical rolls.  Each double-digit of a skill level (i.e., 11, 22, 33, etc.) was assigned a special effect -- roughly 10% of whatever skill level you possess  That's neither here nor there, but it filled the gap for un-flippable die results.

!i!

That's pretty cool -- I like that option 🙂

[Ian Absentia]

1 hour ago, Stan Shinn said:

That's pretty cool -- I like that option 🙂

Be sure to send royalties to Greg Stolze. 🙂

!i!

[Mugen]

15 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Unknown Armies featured a similar flipping mechanic, though I forget how it was implemented.  It also had a clever method for calculating special/critical rolls.  Each double-digit of a skill level (i.e., 11, 22, 33, etc.) was assigned a special effect -- roughly 10% of whatever skill level you possess  That's neither here nor there, but it filled the gap for un-flippable die results.

!i!

I really don't like this mechanic, as it doesn't scale well with skills over 100.

Rolling under the 10s of the skills gives similar chances of crits for the 1-100 range, and doesn't require much maths either.

[Ian Absentia]

9 hours ago, Mugen said:

...it doesn't scale well with skills over 100.

Which raises the question of the merit of skills over 100%.  UA, as well as some other d100 games, doesn't scale over 100.

!i!

Edited August 18, 2021 by Ian Absentia

[Mugen]

12 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Which raises the question of the merit of skills over 100%.  UA, as well as some other d100 games, doesn't scale over 100.

!i!

As it's a topic that is completely different from this thread's and would require a long explanation, I'd simply say that it's something [b]I[/b] consider mandatory in roll-under games to have a meaningful skill range. :)

However, I'm not comparing it to, say, RuneQuest's way of handling Criticals and Specials, which requires some maths (except if you've been playing the game for decades). I won't deny spotting a double is automatic, but judging that any roll between 1 and 8 is lower or equal to the tens of 87 is also very quick.

[Jakob]

I must say that the concepts of flipping and of doubles-as-crits are just enormously satisfying to me on a "game aesthetics" level. Knowing that something special (good or bad) happened as soon as doubles hit the table is just cool. And using Hero Points or Luck Points or whatever you call them to flip a die roll is a nice in-between-solution: With re-rolls, there's always a chance that you'll just have wasted a point on another failure (which is something I truly hate), but simply buying a level of success by spending some kind of game currency also feels wrong to many. With flipping, you know whether you'll get a success out of it (and you can even radically alter very bad results, like a 90, to very good ones), but you will not always be able to do it (flipping a 97 to a 79 might do nothing for you).

And it all can be done without doing any maths. I don't know if it's the best thing in terms of d100 game design, but on an aesthetics/fun level, I'm truly grateful for Stolze to come up with the doubles-as-crits and the dice flipping.

[Cdr Vimes]

Zweihander as mentioned uses flip to succeed and fail. Doubles are criticals and if the double rolled is less than the target number its a critical success if over the target number a critical fail.

I think I am correct in saying that in addition 00 is always a critical fail never mind what the tat number is as well.

[Questbird]

20 hours ago, Mugen said:

As it's a topic that is completely different from this thread's and would require a long explanation, I'd simply say that it's something [b]I[/b] consider mandatory in roll-under games to have a meaningful skill range. 🙂

However, I'm not comparing it to, say, RuneQuest's way of handling Criticals and Specials, which requires some maths (except if you've been playing the game for decades). I won't deny spotting a double is automatic, but judging that any roll between 1 and 8 is lower or equal to the tens of 87 is also very quick.

 

The ones less than tens method is quite interesting. Someone with 50% skill would have an 11% chance of critical while another with 70% would have %22. This is fine, and a good idea for a game like Elric! which has ⅕ criticals. But how would it scale to skill levels above 100%? If you had for example 120% skill wouldn't all the 'ones' be less than the 'tens' on d100 and therefore you would have 100% chance of a critical?

[Mugen]

5 hours ago, Questbird said:

The ones less than tens method is quite interesting. Someone with 50% skill would have an 11% chance of critical while another with 70% would have %22. This is fine, and a good idea for a game like Elric! which has ⅕ criticals. But how would it scale to skill levels above 100%? If you had for example 120% skill wouldn't all the 'ones' be less than the 'tens' on d100 and therefore you would have 100% chance of a critical?

You'd have 45% chance of criticals. 10% of the cases would be ties, and half of the remaining cases would see 10s being superior to units.

You could use someting similar to Pendragon, and add the 10s of the skill above 100 to the tens. For instance, rolling 34 under 127 would be a crit, as the 2 in 127 would be added to the 3 of the roll. But it's not a very simple mechanism, IMHO.

[soltakss]

On 8/18/2021 at 7:15 PM, Ian Absentia said:

Which raises the question of the merit of skills over 100%.  UA, as well as some other d100 games, doesn't scale over 100.

• Better chance of success if you incur a Penalty (60%-30=30%, 160%-30=130%)
• Better Special or critical ranges, if the game has them.
• Some D100 games use "Anti-Parry" or similar methods to reduce opponents' chances in a contest if your skill is over 100
• Bragging rights

[Questbird]

On 8/20/2021 at 7:27 PM, Mugen said:

You'd have 45% chance of criticals. 10% of the cases would be ties, and half of the remaining cases would see 10s being superior to units.

You could use someting similar to Pendragon, and add the 10s of the skill above 100 to the tens. For instance, rolling 34 under 127 would be a crit, as the 2 in 127 would be added to the 3 of the roll. But it's not a very simple mechanism, IMHO.

 

 

With 45% chance of critical at 100+ skill, confilcts between Masters would probably be short and sharp, instead of "bif-bof-bif".

For skills > 100 you could change the rule to 'ones less than or equal to tens' is a critical.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Questbird

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Questbird said:

With 45% chance of critical at 100+ skill, confilcts between Masters would probably be short and sharp, instead of "bif-bof-bif".

For skills > 100 you could change the rule to 'ones less than or equal to tens' is a critical.

The problem with this kind of rule is that over 100%, whatever your score, the probability of a crit is constant.

[Mugen]

5 hours ago, Kloster said:

The problem with this kind of rule is that over 100%, whatever your score, the probability of a crit is constant.

Yes. I think it's a pity if a Diamond Caste mostali "only" has 50% crit Chance despite a 2000% skill...

Using rolls under a fraction of the skill is only one possible solution, thanksfully, but others tend to involve multiple rolls or use "tricks" (such as the "masteries" and "bump" mechanisms of (Hero)(Wars|Quest)(World)).

[Lloyd Dupont]

10 hours ago, Mugen said:

Yes. I think it's a pity if a Diamond Caste mostali "only" has 50% crit Chance despite a 2000% skill...

I think this critic was aimed at master vs master.. with, say 2000% vs 2000% (ahem, unlikely big number... ), would be silly to give them both 100% crit chance when facing each other...

[Mugen]

6 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

I think this critic was aimed at master vs master.. with, say 2000% vs 2000% (ahem, unlikely big number... ), would be silly to give them both 100% crit chance when facing each other...

2000% was the required skill level to be a member of that "caste" in RQ3 Gods of Glorantha. :)

It was obviously not meant as a goal for PCs.

Also, I can't answer for @Kloster, but my understanding was that his answer wasn't only about when two characters are opposed, either in combat or other situations, but a general remark about the chances for a "master" to get superior success thanks to his very high skill. I also personally don't think there's anything inherently silly for two masters to reach a skill level so high they have 95% (remember the automatic failure on 96+ rule in RQ) chance to roll a crit. Surely not a very exciting situation in play, though.

[Lloyd Dupont]

21 minutes ago, Mugen said:

2000% was the required skill level to be a member of that "caste" in RQ3 Gods of Glorantha. 🙂

It was obviously not meant as a goal for PCs.

Also, I can't answer for @Kloster, but my understanding was that his answer wasn't only about when two characters are opposed, either in combat or other situations, but a general remark about the chances for a "master" to get superior success thanks to his very high skill. I also personally don't think there's anything inherently silly for two masters to reach a skill level so high they have 95% (remember the automatic failure on 96+ rule in RQ) chance to roll a crit. Surely not a very exciting situation in play, though.

I dont mind the mostali master having 100% crit chance in most cases.... I mean when 2 mostali master face each other in fencing, .. I guess it's a matter of personal fantasy at this stage... but I wouldn't give them 100% crit both on first missed parry... in effect I would apply the antiparry malus that reduce bot to 100% when facing each other... 🙂

also.. pardon me.. but this is the BRP subsection.. and I will confess my ignorance of most things Glorantha and mostali master.. 😮 

though, to be fair, around 1992 I believe, I bought the RQ3 God and Glorantha book!! But I left it in France long time ago, and forgot it all! ^^