Archeological research: Vyran of Blue Castle

[Godweyn]

Well hello everyone.

Tricky question for those who have dived in deep water.

What is really known about Queen Vyran of Blue Castle?

Are there details? Or is it all lost in the mist of time?

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, Godweyn said:

Well hello everyone.

Tricky question for those who have dived in deep water.

What is really known about Queen Vyran of Blue Castle?

Are there details? Or is it all lost in the mist of time?

Really one for the other forum, but there was a Waertagi population (known as the Blue People) that caused major havoc in Peloria during the Flood.  Castle Blue and Vyran are relics of their mythical kingdom.

[Joerg]

52 minutes ago, Godweyn said:

Well hello everyone.

Tricky question for those who have dived in deep water.

What is really known about Queen Vyran of Blue Castle?

Are there details? Or is it all lost in the mist of time?

The name appears only in the King of Sartar version of the Battle of Castle Blue (p.82 hardcover/pdf), reprinted verbatim in Book of Heortling Mythology (p141).

The description of the battle mentions 

Quote

 the briny and sweet cousins of Queen Vyran, risen from the deep to sweep the world clear of Chaos.

which is a clear allusion to the forces of the Sea Tribe.

That source also uses the name Elmal for the forces of Light on the other flank, which helps placing this document in pre-Monrogh Kethaela or southern Kerofinela, as use of that name would be anachronistic anywhere else.

The Sourcebook refers to this conflict (on p.143) 

Quote

After destroying the empire of Carmania, she warred with a race of magical beings at a place called Castle Blue. The Old Gods were drawn into the conflict, mustered to dispel this eruption of Chaos from the universe.

The version in the Redline History of the Lunar Empire, Zero Wane, (Sourcebook p.158f) has seen a considerable update compared to the early version in Wyrm's Footnotes 8 (p.15f), and mentions names introduced only in The Fortunate Succession and Entekosiad.

Fortunate Succession p43 introduces the name for that race of magical beings, the Veth Ethdisi.

Quote

Castle Blue was in Oronin Lake. This was a Gateway which appeared at irregular intervals. The Veth Ethdisi lived there,  an  immortal  race  that  worshipped  three  deities: Mother  Carman,  Blackness,  and  Lightness.  They  were equally  comfortable  in  interacting  with  both  the  living people upon the shores of Oronin when they were there, or the dead people on the shores of the Black Lake. The castle was a great squat tower, crowned with many smaller towers, around  which  were  built  the  dome-shaped  houses  of  the residents.  The  buildings  stood  upon  many  firm  earth islands,  but  the  residents  could  also  walk  upon  the  water between the islands as if it were all firm land. Others had to use  boats  or  swim.  They  also  controlled  the  sky  overhead 
from two of the towers. 
Some  of  the  Veth  Ethdisi,  who  were  related  to  the conquered  Carmanians,  were  outraged  at  the  treatment  of their  relatives.  They  quarreled  with  the  Lunar  residents living upon the lake, and soon fighting broke out. When an army  of  the  dead  sailed  from  the  islands  and  burnt Meglardinth,  the  gate  between  worlds  was  unhinged,  and the Red Goddess' opportunity presented itself. 
There  ensued  a  great  struggle  in  which  many  peoples gained  immortality  or  obscurity,  and  many  gods  became active. Even foreigners found excuses to become engaged. The barbarian Orlanthi claimed that the Goddess was evil, the Warlord of Charg said it was his duty to fight chaos, and even  the  blue  men  worshipping  YarGan  the  Abominable came  up  from  underneath  the  Sweet  Sea  to  fight.  On  the second year an army of people made of wood came to fight, then one of stone, then one of metal; and at a Sacred Time, one of fire.  
The  fighting  was  fierce,  terrible,  and  glorious.  Many good  men  and  women  died  there,  and  the  gods  and goddesses  had  difficulty  keeping  their  people  out  of foreigners'  hells.  The  fabric  of  the  world  changed  in  the fighting.  One  time  all  the  air  above  the  Castle  turned  to water,  and  another  time  all  fires  on  the  islands  turned  to crystal  stone  and  shattered.  Lighting  was  trapped underwater for a year and a day. A color was stripped from the rainbow, and given back as a peace-gift.  
At the end, the fight was over, and the Red Goddess would have a greater part in the universe henceforth. And upon the world she would leave behind would be her tanist. Her sacrifice would live upon the world, and would suffer life  so  that  she  could  be  immortal.  He  was  the  Red Emperor. 

TFS p.89 tells about Carmanos, who was born to Charmain (rather than Carman) and who retired to Castle Blue as an immortal.

 

The Entekosiad offers the story of the origin of Lake Oronin, the site of Castle Blue, but doesn't seem to mention the Veth Ethdisi, or any queen of Castle Blue, or the castle itself.

 

I don't think that the name Vyran is that authoritative. The same sources say "Jagrekriand" instead of Shargash or Tolat, and other such local names. Charmain (the name re-used in the Guide, rather than Carman) would be the queen and ancestress of the Castle people, who would be kin to the riverine Waertagi who created the Poralistor and Oronin rivers, and who imploded Mount Turos creating Lake Oronin.

The Veth Ethsidi are the inhabitants of the fading land that is Castle Blue and its suburbs of dome-shaped houses. A bit like a Brithos en miniature...

Unlike Old Brithos, which sent away all those of its citizens not conforming to the Taliban-in-Chief Zzabur, the Veth Ethsidi offered asylum to their mortal offspring in Carmania before abandoning the world (in a similar way as the City of Wonders has disappeared after the 1624 plundering by Harrek).

[Godweyn]

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

Really one for the other forum, but there was a Waertagi population (known as the Blue People) that caused major havoc in Peloria during the Flood.  Castle Blue and Vyran are relics of their mythical kingdom.

Yes, yes, I know, this should be in the Glorantha forum, I realized very late, when I had already made the post. And I guess it's too late to move it.

 

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

The name appears only in the King of Sartar version of the Battle of Castle Blue (p.82 hardcover/pdf), reprinted verbatim in Book of Heortling Mythology (p141).

The description of the battle mentions 

which is a clear allusion to the forces of the Sea Tribe.

That source also uses the name Elmal for the forces of Light on the other flank, which helps placing this document in pre-Monrogh Kethaela or southern Kerofinela, as use of that name would be anachronistic anywhere else.

The Sourcebook refers to this conflict (on p.143) 

The version in the Redline History of the Lunar Empire, Zero Wane, (Sourcebook p.158f) has seen a considerable update compared to the early version in Wyrm's Footnotes 8 (p.15f), and mentions names introduced only in The Fortunate Succession and Entekosiad.

Fortunate Succession p43 introduces the name for that race of magical beings, the Veth Ethdisi.

TFS p.89 tells about Carmanos, who was born to Charmain (rather than Carman) and who retired to Castle Blue as an immortal.

 

The Entekosiad offers the story of the origin of Lake Oronin, the site of Castle Blue, but doesn't seem to mention the Veth Ethdisi, or any queen of Castle Blue, or the castle itself.

 

I don't think that the name Vyran is that authoritative. The same sources say "Jagrekriand" instead of Shargash or Tolat, and other such local names. Charmain (the name re-used in the Guide, rather than Carman) would be the queen and ancestress of the Castle people, who would be kin to the riverine Waertagi who created the Poralistor and Oronin rivers, and who imploded Mount Turos creating Lake Oronin.

The Veth Ethsidi are the inhabitants of the fading land that is Castle Blue and its suburbs of dome-shaped houses. A bit like a Brithos en miniature...

Unlike Old Brithos, which sent away all those of its citizens not conforming to the Taliban-in-Chief Zzabur, the Veth Ethsidi offered asylum to their mortal offspring in Carmania before abandoning the world (in a similar way as the City of Wonders has disappeared after the 1624 plundering by Harrek).

Wow, Thanks, that´s really useful.

I was looking for specifics about Vyran itself but i assume that may be imposible, although it may be just another name of Charmain.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Godweyn said:

I was looking for specifics about Vyran itself but i assume that may be imposible, although it may be just another name of Charmain.

My reasoning for that mainly is if this is a magical people with something approaching immortality, if only by their castle being close to the Gods World, then how often would they change queens?

[Eff]

Some minor, subsidiary notes:

- "Carmanos" and "Carman" might be the same name styled differently. On an outside chance, "Charmain" might also be a different styling of the same base name, beyond being clearly related.

-"Vyran" is probably not a transmitted version of a Brolian or Charg name for Charmain, given the internal dating for the source and the improbability of it. Vyran most likely is a name for a similar or equivalent figure the writer knew of. Of course, Castle Blue might have other manifestations in places besides the Sweet Sea and the shores of some Underworld lake. I can offer no real insight into this. 

[Nick Brooke]

16 hours ago, Godweyn said:

Yes, yes, I know, this should be in the Glorantha forum, I realized very late, when I had already made the post. And I guess it's too late to move it.

Moved it for you.

[scott-martin]

22 hours ago, Godweyn said:

I was looking for specifics about Vyran itself but i assume that may be imposible, although it may be just another name of Charmain.

Looking at the gaps in the sources it's likely that the early Lunar expansion destroyed, moved or hid a lot of Pelorian blue magic, especially where it relates to the Carmanian divine right of kings. They already had trouble with their watersheds and in particular would not have wanted to make it easy for anyone to breed a legitimate "Second Carmanos," although I'm sure the effort involved suggests attempts were made.

We're fortunate to have the scraps that survive embedded in Lunar and pre-Lunar sources considered too authoritative to edit or too obscure to register as dangerous. Of course in a Hero War situation someone dedicated and lucky could go out and revive a few details, maybe once the Ban completely clears in the Sweet Sea and whatever persists there can be brought back to its sister lake. (The interest of the Eel faction this far west might be more than it seems, especially in light of the "drive for a warm water port" theory of empire, but that's a side note.)

The only non-"Carmanian" name we have is Vyran so that's probably the most archaic aspect closest to the common origin of foreign-but-related blue people, briny and sweet. Any Sweet Sea survivals would recognize her by that name, which echoes in the primeval "[W]yr[i]an" by which the territory is still known today.

At some point Sar Syranthir shows and engineers a marital pact with the local mother goddess. I think she was called something like Carman or Charmain (maybe depending on divine/mortal phase) and the land was already called Carmania when the Fronelans arrived . . . however, this could itself be early dynastic propaganda, in which case the land might have been called something else like Vwyrian that the invaders couldn't pronounce.

Who is she? If I were doing it right now, I'd lean on hints that she was originally a separate figure more like a land goddess with vague water connections, probably the heart of what becomes Carmanian agriculture, their local "Oria." This is land goddess country. Syranthir's people knew about land goddesses and their nomenclature. A paternal form of Vyran may have actually been her original "husband protector" marrying the land to the lake . . . but there's little trace of that now. Instead we have a more familiar seasonal struggle of bright and dark brothers around the mother.

Say I'm Sar Syranthir, one of the arch traditionalists of the sorcerous second age looking for a place to pursue my canonically manichaean beliefs in peace. That seasonal struggle must look mighty inviting. I might have even aimed my exodus at it if I knew it was there . . . or if I didn't, it's clearly a divine sign that This Is The Place. I know there's a "good" or godly brother and then there's a devil. I'm not especially interested in deep water magic. I teach my son to heighten the binary and skip over the blue marriage.

Have people determined where the legendary Fronelan dualism comes from? Also, why are the lake and river and satrapy called Oronin? Whom does that serve?

 

[Nick Brooke]

Fun speculations, lots to chew on.

The whole point of the Blood Kings Wars was to eliminate legitimate heirs to the Carmanian throne (and magic).

I know that Syranthir didn't teach his son: the goddess Charmain did. Carmanos was raised by her in Castle Blue.

The river is named for King Oronin, a wicked invading Water God who led a Blue Army inland in the Gods War.