white bull campaign : Bless Grave "case"

[French Desperate WindChild]

Before everything, thanks for these videos, for the GM and the players, a great idea

I have a "background concern" abouth the bless grave spell in the adventure :

Quote

Bless Grave 1 Point Ritual, Nonstackable This ritual summons an invisible aspect of Ty Kora Tek to escort the soul of a dead believer; a successful ritual ensures that the soul does not return as a bad ghost

 

Gina is able to fix a lot of issue with this ritual, that's great, but I would like to know, in this case, why the ghosts (queen's tomb or the 2nd age king for example) were there :

the reason they gave is they are no more worshipped/respected/ what you want. So they are angry, so they returned and are ghosts.

A very good reason I mean.

But ... as there is this ritual, able to fix for ever (as I understand) their location (underworld), why this ritual was not done just after their death and not when adventurers meet them ?

 

do you see my issue ? this spell seems to me so powerful (not for the player, not to run a scenario, that's "just" a ban, but for the "hi-story") there is no reason to ever meet ghosts of rich people buried in a good manner, this blessing was probably done during their ceremony.

 

or the blessing is not for ever but for enough time for adventurers ? some condition  like

• the caster's temple must still work,
• there are some physical condition (like warding ritual), and time or thieves could break them
• the ritual works untill nobody remember them (and depending of the dead's passions, it can return or not)

what do you think ?

 

[PhilHibbs]

Jeff is clearly being quite generous with Gina's use of this spell, and that's fine by me, I think this is a good example of not taking the rules too seriously.

Bless Grave says that it ensures that the ghost does not come back as a bad ghost, but I think that should have the caveat "...usually". Story always trumps spell description. And you could also say that they aren't a "bad ghost", they're just a ghost that is upset that they've been swindled. That doesn't make them bad, just angry!

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

or the blessing is not for ever but for enough time for adventurers ? some condition like

• the caster's temple must still work,
• there are some physical condition (like warding ritual), and time or thieves could break them
• the ritual works untill nobody remember them (and depending of the dead's passions, it can return or not)

what do you think ?

I like all of those. Yes, the ghost is gone, but keeping them gone requires a little effort.

I think the most important thing is that these "rules" are not entirely nailed down and fully understood. There has to be some mystery and unpredictability when you're dealing with the otherworld.

Edited August 26, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[simonh]

I think it's a matter of interpretation of the spell description.

"a successful ritual ensures that the soul does not return as a bad ghost"

I think what the spell actually does is placate the ghost and delivers it to it's proper place in the underworld. However if some other mytho-magical event or summoning or such then disturbs the ghost, I wouldn't expect this spell to do anything to prevent the ghost getting mad again. So maybe this is and issue with this bit of the description? How about this:

"a successful ritual ensures that the soul does not return as a bad ghost by delivering it to it's proper place in the underworld."

I think this makes it clear what's going on, and implicitly opens the door to said ghost getting upset again if said delivery to the underworld gets undone. 

[Nick Brooke]

Story beats rules, every time. Adventurers are exceptional individuals, the kind of stuff they do isn't routinely possible for everyone else. Don't assume everyone in Glorantha is spamming Rune spells all the time.

[Shiningbrow]

I see it more like an usher at a cinema... they direct you to  your appropriate seat/place in afterlife. Once you've been taken there, you can do what you want. The usher isn't going to stop you from getting up and going outside, or whatever. (it won't even stop you from standing on the seat and making a lot of noise or a mess... although cinema ushers probably would). They (it) has one job, and one job only...

[Nick Underwood]

I assumed Berevanos returns as an angry ghost to fulfill the cosmic imperative that players have to work to get a stash of dragon-slaying loot. 

And that Gina gets to banish a ghost to the underworld, using a spell designed to prevent a ghost from returning from the underworld, because... Well because Ty Kora Tek is a bit of a crap goddess for gameplay.

All MGF and nicely handled I thought.

Very much enjoying the White Bull Campaign. Not having played for years, it's as close as I get to Glorantha made real. 

Loved the way Jeff upped the ante again at the Queen's Tomb throwing in the Lunar Invasion of Sartar. But perhaps the dragon, the goddess and the invasion was too much excitement. The players were discussing the invasion while a goddess and ancient Queen of the invaded lands is sitting right next to them doing her knitting... 

[soltakss]

On 8/26/2021 at 10:56 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

But ... as there is this ritual, able to fix for ever (as I understand) their location (underworld), why this ritual was not done just after their death and not when adventurers meet them ?

Were they Earth Worshippers?

Sure, Ernalda gets Bless Grave from Ty Kora Tek, but would people be able to afford a casting on every grave? Eiritha doesn't get Bless Grave.

Is this Second Age Sartar, under the EWF? Maybe Ernalda wasn't worshipped any longer, so the magic wasn't available.

Why would you cast Bless Grave on someone who had a good, peaceful life? After all, they are unlikely to return as ghosts, so why bother casting the spell for them?

On 8/26/2021 at 10:56 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

the reason they gave is they are no more worshipped/respected/ what you want. So they are angry, so they returned and are ghosts.

So, the queen, who would not normally have been expected to return as a ghost, does so because she is not worshipped or honoured. That makes sense.

On 8/26/2021 at 6:35 PM, simonh said:

I think it's a matter of interpretation of the spell description.

"a successful ritual ensures that the soul does not return as a bad ghost"

I think what the spell actually does is placate the ghost and delivers it to it's proper place in the underworld. However if some other mytho-magical event or summoning or such then disturbs the ghost, I wouldn't expect this spell to do anything to prevent the ghost getting mad again.

Maybe they were good ghosts, so could come back.