Chalana Arroy, a question or two.

[David Scott]

11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Another thing I just realized - according to the rules, a resurrectee would be unconscious when returned to their body until they regenerate their first MP, as their spirit would have had to be fought down to zero MP in order to return to the body.

They will only be at zero magic points if the healer reduced them to zero in a single exchange (unlikely). They just have to loose once and have their magic points reduced. See Resurrect RQG 338 / RBM 75

Quote

If the caster succeeds in causing the deceased to lose magic points, the spirit is forced back into the body and returns to full life.

To repeat what I said above, this falls under contest of psychic energy (RQG 366) than "fought down to zero MP"

21 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Would that rules-effect be inside the in-world parameters of this procedure, or would you expect a resurrectee to return in a dramatic recall to their last living experience?

I'd let the player go with MGF, we've a whole genre of literature and films to draw from here.

[Joerg]

6 minutes ago, David Scott said:

They will only be at zero magic points if the healer reduced them to zero in a single exchange (unlikely). They just have to loose once and have their magic points reduced. See Resurrect RQG 338 / RBM 75

Unlikely only if the dead regenerate magic points. People dying in combat or on adventure are fairly likely to have depleted their MP somewhat.

There are a couple of magical releases happening at the moment of death - including the release of all bound spirits. Allied spirits from the cults may linger for the seven days it takes to make a return impossible, or may re-appear when the individual returns from Hell.

Another interesting question: when questing into a sufficiently deep Underworld, do any bound spirits not accompanying the quester get released from entering Hell?

What about entering Alkoth, or the Necropolis in Esrolia?

 

[Byll]

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

With CA, I think it’s not a case of them condemning violence for everyone (although they may lament it), and more a case of ”I won’t do such things”. If the question of war comes up in the clan ring, the CA representative might be opposed and remind everyone of the costs, but not condemn the whole enterprise as unethical. (I think, at least.)

Somewhere under sacrifices rules, it mentions that although Chalana does not accept blood sacrifices, she does not condemn their use by other deities. There may be an element of trying to avoid annoying people who you aspire to influence.

5 hours ago, simonh said:

RQ is a game and we play it to have fun, so there’s no point party pooping with CA healer characters that get preachy and condemn everyone all the time. They’ll give their opinion and that’s that.

Ethically there is an issue concerning enabling conflict and slaughter. A war band with a capable healer is a more effective fighting force and can keep fighting for longer. They might refuse to compromise of make peace with an enemy because they think they can win a fight due to the advantage a healer gives them. That’s not good.

On the other hand the goddess did accompany the other Lightbringers. She was an adventuring goddess who went out into dangerous places. Of course the aim of that quest was to right a wrong, to heal a would and restore a broken world. It is reasonable for a Chalanan character to care what it’s all about and if they’re just being used, or if they could do more good elsewhere.

Last time I played a Chalana I ended a combat by casting sleep on the (dazed and confused) NPC who's combat with another NPC we had stumbled upon resulting in it attacking us. My character was able to persuade the party and NPC to join forces in this instance, but communication and persuasion are not really in Chalana initiates' core skill set, so if you plan to play long term with a Chalana, it may be useful to have and Issaries, Etyries or Argan Argar who can smooth over these Chalana interrupted conflicts gracefully rather than there being soreness in the party over how to treat the opponent.

[AndreJarosch]

Reading all these commnts and theories getting me bad ideas: 

A healer campaign in the Hero Wars, based on MASH, with the sarcastic Chalana Arroy Hawkeye Pierce, the more pragmatic Ernaldan Trapper John, etc. 

Oh, and Klinger has to be a Yelmalion, because: crossdressing. 🙂

[Jeff]

On 9/3/2021 at 5:07 PM, Bren said:

Sometimes spirit combat does physical damage.

Hit Point Damage
When suffering a special or critical attack in spirit combat,
an embodied target (such as a human) takes actual physical
damage to their hit points equal to the number of D6s rolled
for the attack’s damage. Thus, 1D6+3 points of spirit combat
damage will inflict 1 hit point of physical damage. RQiG p 369

That's engaging in Spirit Combat against a living person. CA doesn't have Disincorporate and doesn't do that. But Spirit Combat against a spirit is perfectly fine.

[David Scott]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Unlikely only if the dead regenerate magic points. People dying in combat or on adventure are fairly likely to have depleted their MP somewhat.

Spirits regenerate their magic points as normal. A dead person's spirit will do the same.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Another interesting question: when questing into a sufficiently deep Underworld, do any bound spirits not accompanying the quester get released from entering Hell?

No, It's the same as the first answer in the binding Q&A here

[soltakss]

15 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Did you have a long discussion with the other players and GM about this before drawing them up?

No, I asked the GM if he was OK with me playing a Chalana Arroy cultists and he said yes.

I didn't ask the other Players, as it it none of their business. In the same way that they didn't ask me if I was OK with them playing their Adventurers.

10 hours ago, simonh said:

RQ is a game and we play it to have fun, so there’s no point party pooping with CA healer characters that get preachy and condemn everyone all the time. They’ll give their opinion and that’s that.

Party pooping is fine and something that I look forward to doing at some point.

I have control over who lives and who dies, well as long as I have Rune Points left. They seem to go pretty quickly, I used all 5 Rune Points by half-way through the Adventure, so need to get some more.

I can also say "I support that cause of action" or "I don't support that cause of action", but won't say that I won't heal the other Adventurers unless they cross me. I am a combat medic for the Blackspears, so I have a vested interest in healing the Adventurers.

 

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, Byll said:

Somewhere under sacrifices rules, it mentions that although Chalana does not accept blood sacrifices, she does not condemn their use by other deities. There may be an element of trying to avoid annoying people who you aspire to influence.

Last time I played a Chalana I ended a combat by casting sleep on the (dazed and confused) NPC who's combat with another NPC we had stumbled upon resulting in it attacking us. My character was able to persuade the party and NPC to join forces in this instance, but communication and persuasion are not really in Chalana initiates' core skill set, so if you plan to play long term with a Chalana, it may be useful to have and Issaries, Etyries or Argan Argar who can smooth over these Chalana interrupted conflicts gracefully rather than there being soreness in the party over how to treat the opponent.

Chalana Arroy speaks for Chalana Arroy. She points out that the world should be healed, should be a peace, and violence should be ended. She ACTS in accordance with that. But she is also partnered with a god of war and violence, and a god of disorder, deceit, and upheaval.  

[Shiningbrow]

15 hours ago, soltakss said:

I didn't ask the other Players, as it it none of their business. In the same way that they didn't ask me if I was OK with them playing their Adventurers.

Pls note I wrote "discussed", not "asked".

And I'm very confused with the "it's none of their business"... Mostly, because it's very much their business.

When I've played, there's usually a discussion about what ppl will play, so as to ensure everyone will fit in. No Yelmalians with Hate (Trolls) allongside a troll... That sort of thing. 

It also helps people with spell selection... 

 

But, hey... That's just how I/we roll... 

[Godlearner]

On 9/2/2021 at 1:43 PM, Jeff said:

Nope. Gathering only. They are vegetarians after all.

Nonsense. You are saying that killing an elf is ok, but a rabbit is not?

[Jeff]

15 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Nonsense. You are saying that killing an elf is ok, but a rabbit is not?

Elves are sentient, so they aren't eaten (then again, I can't think of any human culture that eats aldryami). But bloodshed is forbidden to Chalana Arroy initiates, and they don't hunt. 

[simonh]

24 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Nonsense. You are saying that killing an elf is ok, but a rabbit is not?

No, that's not what he said.

[PhilHibbs]

I think it was a joke.

[Godlearner]

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

Elves are sentient, so they aren't eaten (then again, I can't think of any human culture that eats aldryami). But bloodshed is forbidden to Chalana Arroy initiates, and they don't hunt. 

Sentience was not a defining factor in your statement (it is in mine) and why are we limiting ourselves to humans? What prevents a Chalana Arroy Troll or an Elf? When talking plants then sap is equal to blood. Life is life in a fantasy setting. There is no difference between a mammal and vegetable both generate spirits for example. Real life vegetarianism should apply. 

[Joerg]

47 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Sentience was not a defining factor in your statement (it is in mine) and why are we limiting ourselves to humans? What prevents a Chalana Arroy Troll or an Elf? When talking plants then sap is equal to blood. Life is life in a fantasy setting. There is no difference between a mammal and vegetable both generate spirits for example. Real life vegetarianism should apply. 

There is a branch of vegetarianism that won't consume integral parts of plants, like roots, but will harvest fruit, potatoes, or some leaves if that doesn't kill the plant. Unborn plants apparently are fair game.

[Darius West]

On 9/3/2021 at 11:01 PM, PhilHibbs said:

I'm not talking about fighting, which is always forbidden, I'm talking about the extent of the Chalana Arroy protection of subjects, e.g. those sleeped, befuddled, etc.

That's easy.  If a Chalana Arroy tells you that a fallen enemy is under their protection, then if you attack that person, the Chalana Arroy can cast sleep on you.  Of course, once you are sleeping, you are likely also under the healer's protection.  Of course CAs are not infinite magic point batteries, and can be countermagiced and exhausted of mps, and then there is nothing they can do about you dragging away their patients and slaughtering them.

On 9/4/2021 at 12:53 AM, simonh said:

Cool, it doesn't say it kills the baby. As I said removing a parasite which then dies for lack of a host might be ok.

Having covered this disgusting topic with a good few RQ GMs, there is a consensus about the best method to deal with broo babies.  Typically the treatment for broo babies is to get a shaman to use spirit sight and disruption spell the broo baby within the victim, then have an Arroin healer surgically remove the broo before its corpse festers inside the victim.  Other means of removing the parasite generally result in killing both host and parasite, as broo babies can use their cutting edges to instinctively "dig in" to their host with lethal consequences if they are threatened.  Also, if an Orlanthi can touch a broo baby, they can potentially teleport it (preferably into a fire somewhere) without harming the host/victim.

[simonh]

14 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think it was a joke.

Apparently not.

[simonh]

7 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Sentience was not a defining factor in your statement (it is in mine) and why are we limiting ourselves to humans? What prevents a Chalana Arroy Troll or an Elf? When talking plants then sap is equal to blood. Life is life in a fantasy setting. There is no difference between a mammal and vegetable both generate spirits for example. Real life vegetarianism should apply. 

I don't think it's reasonable to take a single statement, responding to a specific point, as being a complete exposition of Challana Arroy philosophy and theology on the general topic. You suggested Chalana Arroy worshipers hunted, Jeff clarified that they don't. Of course there's more to it than that.

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, simonh said:

I don't think it's reasonable to take a single statement, responding to a specific point, as being a complete exposition of Challana Arroy philosophy and theology on the general topic. You suggested Chalana Arroy worshipers hunted, Jeff clarified that they don't. Of course there's more to it than that.

And I am saying that there is no reason that CA are specifically allowed to kill (even with Food Song) plant based life and are not allowed to kill insects, fish, reptiles, or mammals.

 

Sentience should be the determining factor with all life.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Godlearner

[PhilHibbs]

11 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Sentience should be the determining factor with all life.

And I think that's what most people mean by "vegetarian", especially when it's used in a casual context like "Chalana Arroy are vegetarians". In our world, it's a philosophy that is about avoiding eating sentient life, and that pretty much is synonymous with plant life. It should be obvious to us that people that we would think of as vegetarans in Glorantha wouldn't kill and eat Aldryami.

[Jeff]

18 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

And I am saying that there is no reason that CA are specifically allowed to kill (even with Food Song) plant based life and are not allowed to kill insects, fish, reptiles, or mammals.

 

Sentience should be the determining factor with all life.

It is not just sentience. CA does not eat insects, fish, reptiles, or mammals. Them's the rules going back to Cults of Prax and everything Greg and I have written about her.

You may find it illogical or that it does not follow your set of rational principles you have chosen to understand it, but them's Her rules. 

[Godlearner]

28 minutes ago, Jeff said:

You may find it illogical or that it does not follow your set of rational principles you have chosen to understand it, but them's Her rules. 

Fine, since you are basing the structure on myth what is the myth which allows CA to kill/eat plants?

[simonh]

42 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Fine, since you are basing the structure on myth what is the myth which allows CA to kill/eat plants?

The thing is the world is badly broken. Mortal life is a damaged, compromised grubbing through the wreckage of the world. Chalana Arroy remembers the world as it used to be in the Green Age, ordered and bountiful and absent of suffering. Whatever mortals do is going to cause harm, the best we can do is simply minimise it. The cult strictures aren't going to be perfect, they're just the best people can do under the circumstances with what they know and understand. There is going to be reasonable cause for differences of opinion.

Nobody is saying that the strictures as practiced in Esrolia are the most perfect ideal rules there can possibly be, it's just these are what they are at this place and time in Glorantha according to this organisation. You may be right and your preferred rules might be better, maybe people elsewhere in Glorantha practice that way, maybe some devotees in Esrolia do. Maybe your player character does.

Edited September 7, 2021 by simonh

[Eff]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Fine, since you are basing the structure on myth what is the myth which allows CA to kill/eat plants?

I don't think you need a specific myth of "How Chalana Arroy's Apprentice Experimented With Breatharianism". You have primal myths about the necessity of eating, if you need something more rhetorically sophisticated you have the Grower/Maker/Eater mythos to explain that plants are physical expressions of the concept of "raw materials" and therefore meant to be eaten, you have seed-related myths of regeneration which don't apply to animals but do to plants... it's all pretty easy to put together. 

[Manimati]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

You may find it illogical or that it does not follow your set of rational principles you have chosen to understand it, but them's Her rules. 

Indeed, in contrast to real life, in Glorantha where divination and spirits or reprisal exist, it is no use rationalizing that a given cult initiate should or should not be able to do something. The god will quickly let you know whether you are within allowed territory. The only way to escape is illumination. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Manimati
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