Chalana Arroy, a question or two.

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, TrvShane said:

I’m genuinely curious what it is about vegetarianism in setting that allows you to accept the more fantastical elements but not that? It’s an interesting place for YGWV to occur.

I think the concern is over the word, not the existence of a similar philosophy. Since Glorantha has intelligent plants, then "vegetarian" is no longer a safe term to refer to people with ethical objections to eating creatures that have sensations of pain and distress (yes, I know plants can feel distress by some definitions in the real world).

The trite way to phrase this is "if you are a vegetarian then you would eat elves because they are plants therefore your philosophy sucks".

Personally I'm more forgiving of the use of the phrase "vegetarian" to mean "someone who won't eat animals, or plants that have similar faculties to animals in the real world".

Edited September 9, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Darius West]

On 9/3/2021 at 10:06 PM, simonh said:

I don't think so, it's about healing the wounded cosmos and attaining the ritual purity necessary to attain the deepest cult secrets and magic. All violence, of any kind and regardless of the intentions harms reality.

Actually I suspect for most Chalana Arroys, it is about trying to get their daily routine on the ward finished without anyone dying, or messing up so badly they have to pull extra duties. Perhaps, longer term, they think about qualifying for priesthood.  Chalana Arroys aren't Jains, and they aren't saints.  Sure, they don't fight, but that doesn't restrict them from all the other harm they can potentially have a hand in.  For example, I played a CA who ran an organized crime syndicate out of Horn Gate running hazia, slaves, prostitution, loan sharking, fixed gambling, stand-over, and even murder for hire (though she never got her hands dirty with any of it, generally pulling the strings through money and dirty politics).  She ultimately became Chief priestess of Horn Gate's Chalana Arroys and ran them as her personal fief, putting the Cult back in cult of Chalana Arroy.  You can talk about high minded ideals, but that only applies to 1% of 1% of 1% of the Chalana Arroy Cult.

[g33k]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:43 AM, Jeff said:

... Not even Shield. Just Dodge. 

In the general case (i.e. as applies to most PC's) the shield is actually a weapon (it's just a defensively-oriented one centered around blocking and/or parrying).  So I am OK with this general rule:  CA's don't use weapons, nor train with them.

However... I think it's worth noting that some ancient societies had "shield bearers" in combat -- someone tasked with using a large shield to protect the weapon-user.

• Many shield-wall configurations call for YOUR shield to mostly protect the guy on your LEFT, not you (woe to the right flank)!
• At least one ancient chariot-config was IIRC a 3-man team of driver + shield-bearer + warrior.
• I think there was a culture that used companies of shieldman+missile-man; they'd volley, then duck behind cover to reload (and be safe(er) from the return-volley).

I'd allow CA to take "shield-bearer" training aimed at protecting others (specifically those injured or otherwise under their care (e.g. Slept, Befuddled, or otherwise magically disabled by CA action) -- not to protect an active combatant, during melee); I've never had a player express interest in this option, however.

Edited September 13, 2021 by g33k
not an active combatant

[PhilHibbs]

22 minutes ago, g33k said:

I'd allow CA to take "shield-bearer" training aimed at protecting others, specifically those injured or otherwise under their care (e.g. Slept, Befuddled, or otherwise magically disabled by CA action) (never had a player express interest in this option, however).

I think that would be valid, we've already seen a subcult that is ok with killing chaos creatures, so training with a shield, with specific focus on not hurting the attacker on a special or critical, I think is an entirely believable fringe CA heresy.

[Baron Wulfraed]

55 minutes ago, g33k said:

In the general case (i.e. as applies to most PC's) the shield is actually a weapon (it's just a defensively-oriented one centered around blocking and/or parrying).  So I am OK with this general rule:  CA's don't use weapons, nor train with them.

One fault (in my mind) of RQ:RiG unifying attack and parry as just a single weapon %age. RQ2's separate %age values would make defensive-only usage obvious...

 

[simonh]

8 hours ago, g33k said:

I'd allow CA to take "shield-bearer" training aimed at protecting others, specifically those injured or otherwise under their care (e.g. Slept, Befuddled, or otherwise magically disabled by CA action) (never had a player express interest in this option, however).

I think that’s too close to participating in, and aiding and abetting the injury of others. I don’t have a problem with a CA defending themselves or a non-combatant in an emergency situation, but defending a combatant like and in particular training in techniques to do that is fighting IMHO.

Also see below.

Edited September 10, 2021 by simonh

[simonh]

7 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

One fault (in my mind) of RQ:RiG unifying attack and parry as just a single weapon %age. RQ2's separate %age values would make defensive-only usage obvious...

Effective use of a shield in actual combat does include offensive use, and defensive fighting without maintaining a credible threat is badly hobbled. Bashes, strikes against incoming blows, jabs with the edge of the shield. If you forego such moves you’re crippling your ability to fight effectively, even in a defensive mode, and are better off simply using the shield as cover while rapidly retreating. In particular, holding ground without offensive action is simply not possible. Fighting defensively is still fighting, except in the most limited and contrived circumstances.

Edited September 10, 2021 by simonh

[simonh]

I think there’s an unfortunate blanket association of Chalana Arroy with healing generally. That is, that healer necessarily means Chalana Arroy initiate at least and I think that’s mistaken. Many people in Glorantha that are chirurgeons, tooth pullers, that look after the sick or care for the injured in battle are probably lay members of the cult at most. A lot may primarily worship Ernalda, or maybe Lankor Mhy or some other cult.  Many of these get powerful healing rune magic from CA anyway as associate cults. I think devoting to CA is a pretty extreme commitment that’s unlikely for someone not ideologically committed to that very idealised view of the world, at least that’s how I think about it.

[Akhôrahil]

12 hours ago, g33k said:

In the general case (i.e. as applies to most PC's) the shield is actually a weapon (it's just a defensively-oriented one centered around blocking and/or parrying).  So I am OK with this general rule:  CA's don't use weapons, nor train with them.

One thing I could see here is a pavise-style shield - it’s more like a mobile cover to allow you and a patient something to duck behind, and taking cover from missile weapons is presumably okay.

And even if you can’t carry it, an assistant could carry it and set it up or hold it for you. At this point I don’t believe it’s beyond even the spirit of the rule. You’re allowed to travel with and be protected by others, after all.

(Also, missiles are a problem in a way melee weapons might not be in a society where they don’t attack CA healers.)

[simonh]

37 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

One thing I could see here is a pavise-style shield - it’s more like a mobile cover to allow you and a patient something to duck behind, and taking cover from missile weapons is presumably okay.

And even if you can’t carry it, an assistant could carry it and set it up or hold it for you. At this point I don’t believe it’s beyond even the spirit of the rule. You’re allowed to travel with and be protected by others, after all.

(Also, missiles are a problem in a way melee weapons might not be in a society where they don’t attack CA healers.)

I've got no problem with that at all. A lot of the suggestions of ways a CA might bend the rules just seem unnecessary. Why would they even want to? Someone else can do all that stuff if it really needs doing. One thing Glorantha doesn't have a shortage of is violent minded hotheads.

[g33k]

17 hours ago, simonh said:

I think there’s an unfortunate blanket association of Chalana Arroy with healing generally. That is, that healer necessarily means Chalana Arroy initiate at least and I think that’s mistaken. Many people in Glorantha that are chirurgeons, tooth pullers, that look after the sick or care for the injured in battle are probably lay members of the cult at most. A lot may primarily worship Ernalda, or maybe Lankor Mhy or some other cult.  Many of these get powerful healing rune magic from CA anyway as associate cults. I think devoting to CA is a pretty extreme commitment that’s unlikely for someone not ideologically committed to that very idealised view of the world, at least that’s how I think about it.

I'm working on an Ernaldan healer-focus character.  She's rather a CA-wannabe (I may even make her a wash-out Challana'n).

She just can't *quite* manage the non-violence schtick...

She dual-wields shields in combat.  Yes, I know it's wildly impractical as a combat method, and historically unattested... but then again magical battle-medic roles are also unattested!

See, she doesn't actually WANT to fight or hurt anyone... she just wants to get to the downed person she wants to heal (even mid-battlefield), without actually striking to harm (unlike a genuine CA, she's willing to bull-rush, knock-back, etc).

 

[g33k]

 

Quote

I'd allow CA to take "shield-bearer" training aimed at protecting others, specifically those injured or otherwise under their care (e.g. Slept, Befuddled, or otherwise magically disabled by CA action) (never had a player express interest in this option, however).

18 hours ago, simonh said:

I think that’s too close to participating in, and aiding and abetting the injury of others. I don’t have a problem with a CA defending themselves or a non-combatant in an emergency situation, but defending a combatant like and in particular training in techniques to do that is fighting IMHO..

I didn't mean the CA would be a shield-bearer in combat; just use a shield defensively to keep themselves and their patients from being hit.

I was just citing the "combat shield-bearer" as the closest historically-attested practice.

 

 

 

[Byll]

On 9/2/2021 at 6:43 PM, Jeff said:

Not even Shield. Just Dodge.

If this seems harsh = it is. The worship of the goddess Chalana Arroy is an extremely harsh and prohibitive one in many respects, and especially in the nature of their self-defense. In fact, the cult expressly prohibits the use of any weapons or magic which may damage a part of the world. 

 

 

On 9/9/2021 at 8:15 PM, g33k said:

I'd allow CA to take "shield-bearer" training aimed at protecting others, specifically those injured or otherwise under their care (e.g. Slept, Befuddled, or otherwise magically disabled by CA action) (never had a player express interest in this option, however).

 

On 9/9/2021 at 8:39 PM, PhilHibbs said:

I think that would be valid, we've already seen a subcult that is ok with killing chaos creatures, so training with a shield, with specific focus on not hurting the attacker on a special or critical, I think is an entirely believable fringe CA heresy.

 

On 9/10/2021 at 4:41 AM, simonh said:

I think that’s too close to participating in, and aiding and abetting the injury of others. I don’t have a problem with a CA defending themselves or a non-combatant in an emergency situation, but defending a combatant like and in particular training in techniques to do that is fighting IMHO.

Personally, my view of Chalana Arroy is that she does not condone opposing force with force. As Jeff says, using an implement designed to improve your ability to stand up in combat is going to incur her disapproval. In my opinion the Chalana healer's only direct option to defend someone she has incapacitated with Sleep or Befuddle is to interpose her unarmed 'unresisting' self between them and the threat, and hope that the taboos against injuring a healer make the would be attacker look for a less troubling target.

[Byll]

On 9/10/2021 at 5:05 AM, simonh said:

I think there’s an unfortunate blanket association of Chalana Arroy with healing generally. That is, that healer necessarily means Chalana Arroy initiate at least and I think that’s mistaken. Many people in Glorantha that are chirurgeons, tooth pullers, that look after the sick or care for the injured in battle are probably lay members of the cult at most. A lot may primarily worship Ernalda, or maybe Lankor Mhy or some other cult.  Many of these get powerful healing rune magic from CA anyway as associate cults. I think devoting to CA is a pretty extreme commitment that’s unlikely for someone not ideologically committed to that very idealised view of the world, at least that’s how I think about it.

 

15 hours ago, g33k said:

I'm working on an Ernaldan healer-focus character.  She's rather a CA-wannabe (I may even make her a wash-out Challana'n).

She just can't *quite* manage the non-violence schtick...

She dual-wields shields in combat. 

See, she doesn't actually WANT to fight or hurt anyone... she just wants to get to the downed person she wants to heal (even mid-battlefield), without actually striking to harm (unlike a genuine CA, she's willing to bull-rush, knock-back, etc).

 

I'm currently running an Oria (Ernalda) Healer attached to a Lunar vexillum.

She not such a Chalana light... She doesn't want or expect to have to fight in combat (that's her comrades' job) but she has dagger at 90% (including manipulation modifiers) and carries her late husband's large shield around, not entirely for sentimental reasons. If anybody threatens her with violence, she'll happily kill them.

Maybe if they're just incapacitated, she'll heal them afterwards (once the manacles are on). She has Heal 6 and a ton of Ernalda healing rune magic. Her unit are quite happy that she's not disadvantaged on dying / new moon days. Her Moon and Fire affinities are actually higher than her Earth affinity but she can use Harmony and Fertility for most of her Runespell casting.

[soltakss]

On 9/9/2021 at 12:08 PM, Shiningbrow said:

First, to what extent is a CA healer obliged to heal someone? To fully heal someone to complete health? Or is the obligation only marginal - sufficient to stop them getting worse? Or somewhere in between?

Obliged to heal is an odd context. There are people that my PC just will not heal, so don't bother asking him. 

I would say that the bare minimum is enough.

On 9/9/2021 at 12:08 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Second, in RQ3, there was a sorcery spell of Shapechange. Would this have an impact on a CA's diet? If you, for example, Shapechange a rock into a rabbit, could the CA eat it?

In my opinion, no.

What if someone had used Shapechange Rabbit to Rock first?

But, other Healers might say that it is fine.

The Healer Handbook probably doesn't include it.

[simonh]

On 9/9/2021 at 12:08 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Two philosophical thoughts...

First, to what extent is a CA healer obliged to heal someone? To fully heal someone to complete health? Or is the obligation only marginal - sufficient to stop them getting worse? Or somewhere in between?

Chalana Arroy is literally healing, in the same way that storms are parts of Orlanth's body. If a beijng is capable of healing and has life, that's Chalana Arroy right there. The act of casting healing magic, on anyone or anything, is an act of worship. So the question is to what extent are devotees of the goddess required to worship her. Not necessarily all the time in every act, but if an injured being is capable of healing then clearly it's worthy of the blessing of the goddess.

But of course actual mortals have to make practical compromises. Sweeping and keeping are both flawed approaches in different ways. It's not brilliant that CA worshipers have to get involved to the extent of placing people under their protection, and sanctioning those that violate that protection. They do it because they have to do something. The important thing is not to act on self serving impulses, but who gets to decide what is the greater good? I think the context of the specific situation makes a big difference so it's not always possible to make hard and fast rules.

Edited September 12, 2021 by simonh

[Godlearner]

On 9/9/2021 at 4:06 AM, TrvShane said:

I’m genuinely curious what it is about vegetarianism in setting that allows you to accept the more fantastical elements but not that? It’s an interesting place for YGWV to occur.

Glorantha has multiple types of life forms animal, plant based, fungal, stone, fish, spirit, undead (anti-life). What makes plant based life different for CAs from fish or animal? Are they allowed to eat fungus? It seems the standard is arbitrary and only makes sense form Real Life point of view.   That is why I was saying that the defining factor should be intelligence.

[Godlearner]

On 9/11/2021 at 2:24 PM, soltakss said:

What if someone had used Shapechange Rabbit to Rock first?

How about Shapechange Troll to Carrot? Can they then kill it and eat it?

[Akhôrahil]

47 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

How about Shapechange Troll to Carrot? Can they then kill it and eat it?

We actually had an in-game discussion in Ars Magica whether it was the substance or the accidences of pork that needed to be altered for a Muslim character to be fine with eating it.

[simonh]

11 hours ago, Godlearner said:

How about Shapechange Troll to Carrot? Can they then kill it and eat it?

That's a fun one. If the shape change magic is temporary I'd say no, because the essence of the Troll is still present to reassert itself once the spell expires. If it's a permanent change then yes, it's fine. That's an idealised take, but how a particular temple might rule on a specific case may vary on the safe side.

Edited September 13, 2021 by simonh

[Kloster]

On 9/9/2021 at 10:13 PM, Baron Wulfraed said:

One fault (in my mind) of RQ:RiG unifying attack and parry as just a single weapon %age. RQ2's separate %age values would make defensive-only usage obvious...

 

Completely agree.

[Jeff]

As an aside our newbie playing a CA initiate at GenCon quickly grasped how he was to operate in combat - simply walk in front of combatants and dare them to offend the Goddess of Healing by harming her peaceful devotee! Works with pretty any human, elf, and most others. Obviously a problem with Chaos or hateful cults like Zoran Zoran, Gagarth, or Wachaza, but that is a pretty short list.

[Bren]

Walking into melee it seems like the CA should, in addition to wearing distinctive garb, also make some noise (like ring a bell, chant, or sing song) so their location is audibly clear in case they are visibly obscured by fog, smoke, darkness, intervening fighters etc. Their protective status is because they are healers and so they can heal. It's not supposed to be a way for a healer to play gotcha with the fighters in a conflict.

[Shiningbrow]

6 minutes ago, Bren said:

Walking into melee it seems like the CA should, in addition to wearing distinctive garb, also make some noise (like ring a bell, chant, or sing song) so their location is audibly clear in case they are visibly obscured by fog, smoke, darkness, intervening fighters etc. Their protective status is because they are healers and so they can heal. It's not supposed to be a way for a healer to play gotcha with the fighters in a conflict.

Which makes me think... What about pushing a CA out of the way to get to an opponent/enemy?

[Bren]

Gently lift them up and set them down out of the way?