Chalana Arroy, a question or two.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Dragon said:

...a disease spirit is bound to an area. A Chalana Arroy initiate with decent POW and high Spirit Combat skill defeats it, and gains 1d3 POW, which reduces the POW of the spirit by the same amount...

I don't think it says that. If a disease spirit attempts to infect you and you fight it off, you get the 1d3. It doesn't say that you get the 1d3 if you attack it and beat it. It's a little ambiguous, but it does say "intended victim".

Edited November 27, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Dragon]

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think it says that. If a disease spirit attempts to infect you and you fight it off, you get the 1d3. It doesn't say that you get the 1d3 if you attack it and beat it. It's a little ambiguous, but it does say "intended victim".

Phil,

Good question. I was not precise. My expectation is that the Chalana Arroy walks into the bound area and the disease spirit attacks. I did mention it is to protect the community. Because disease spirits will attack anyone travelling through. Either because the Binder told them via Command or Control, or because it is in their nature to spread disease. And lo, a new intended victim has entered the area, in the awareness of the disease spirit. And it initiates spirit combat.

The initiate generally has little access to Discorporate, and thus cannot 'attack' the disease spirit. Hence the disease spirit attacks, in almost every case. Which is why the presence of the disease spirit is a threat to the community. Not everyone has >75 Spirit Combat skill and thus many villagers, their livestock and pets, even wild animals could be attacked by the disease spirit and get seriously hurt.

You could be correct about the Humakti with Truesword not gaining the 1d3 POW. The wording is a little ambiguous. As GM, I always figured it was the one that drove the disease spirit to zero magic points, however that happened. The rule could mean only the intended victim (i.e embodied spirit) attacked by the disease spirit, if and only if said victim inflicts every magic point via Spirit Combat results. But it doesn't say that.

Imagine, a PC gets attacked by a disease spirit. He is evenly matched, and a party member helps out. In which ways below would the victim not count as having defeated the spirit and driven it off (thus not gain the immunity and 1d3 POW):

• Friend casts Spirit Screen to help the victim survive
• Friend casts Disruption inflicting 1d3 magic points on the disease spirit, but not the final magic points
• Friend hits spirit with a Truesword, inflicting some 'damage', but not the final magic points
• Friend inspires the victim to increase their Spirit Combat skill
• Friend casts Glamour on the victim to increase Spirit Combat skill and possibly the Spirit Combat damage (victim was at 15 POW and 14 CHA and Glamour changes their 1d6+1 to 1d6+3).

I always figured rather than try to split hairs about each scenario, I would make a simple ruling. Inflict the last magic points to drive it to zero, reap the rewards.

Your GM can declare only the intended victim can reap rewards and only if they do the last magic points of damage. Your GM can declare all of the above mean the victim had 'help' and thus gains none of the rewards. That is their prerogative. If they want to define only the ones that directly cause magic point damage as negating the rewards, they can do that.

If the disease spirit succeeds enough to get Serious disease on the victim and moves to another victim, does that new victim only need to inflict as many magic points as the spirit had when it engaged them, or the entire POW worth of magic points? If the victim is a Vinga who decides to cast Lightning 4 on the disease spirit as the final act, does that count as "manages to defeat the spirit and drives it off or destroys it"?

You are very correct that RAW don't say. The GM should just be consistent.

[soltakss]

On 11/23/2021 at 6:59 PM, WindSerpent said:

Seriously, though, how do CA followers feel about disease spirits? I mean obviously they don't let them hang around, but has anyone seen a source address how they frame their interactions with them?

They hate the, for they are evil.

Disease Spirits cause harm and disease, they serve Mallia, who is a cult enemy.

Chalana Arroy cultists have no problem with destroying Disease Spirits.

The only people who do are Players who overthink things, or GMs who try to put moral dilemmas in front of Players.

 

[Shiningbrow]

The CA explicitly states that Chaotic beings are an exception from their protection, and spirits of disease are Chaotic, as @soltaksswrote above.

 

[Akhôrahil]

13 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

The CA explicitly states that Chaotic beings are an exception from their protection, and spirits of disease are Chaotic, as @soltaksswrote above

Are Disease spirits universally Chaotic, though? Neither the rulebook nor the Bestiary states this. I know there's this long discussion about whether Malia is always and everywhere Chaotic.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Are Disease spirits universally Chaotic, though? Neither the rulebook nor the Bestiary states this. I know there's this long discussion about whether Malia is always and everywhere Chaotic.

Chaotic may be in the eye of the beholder.

But (at least IMG) a Chalana Arroy cultist will have no qualms 
a) eradicating disease spirits
b) hurting chaos abominations
c) destroying undead.

That same CA will heal Telmori six out of seven days a week (and won't need to on Wilddays)

[Akhôrahil]

16 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Chaotic may be in the eye of the beholder.

To a point, but presence or absence of Chaos Gift or Chaos Rune is kinda objective.

And anyway, it doesn't seem important - as noted, CA cultists are allowed to engage in (and even initiate) Spirit Combat, or else they could never resurrect anyone. Booting a disease spirit out of a person shouldn't even be an issue.

[French Desperate WindChild]

32 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

To a point, but presence or absence of Chaos Gift or Chaos Rune is kinda objective.

for a gm yes, maybe for a player, but imagine in glorantha. Do they know that people are "built" with /by runes. Do they know that this guy with dex 18 (3d6) is non chaotic but this one with 16 (6d6) is chaotic

how can they know (if they have never meet before) if this guy whith a bull head is a minautor and this one is a "civilized" broo ?

[Alex]

57 minutes ago, Joerg said:

But (at least IMG) a Chalana Arroy cultist will have no qualms 
[...]b) hurting chaos abominations

More "allowing them to be them to be hurt".  The ol' omission/commission bias doing quite a lot of work in CA circles.

[Akhôrahil]

5 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

for a gm yes, maybe for a player, but imagine in glorantha. Do they know that people are "built" with /by runes. Do they know that this guy with dex 18 (3d6) is non chaotic but this one with 16 (6d6) is chaotic

how can they know (if they have never meet before) if this guy whith a bull head is a minautor and this one is a "civilized" broo ?

Sense Chaos gives every indication of being objective, I believe (and is more available than RuneQuestSight). 

The CA initiate should certainly air on the side of caution if uncertain, though...

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

The CA initiate should certainly air on the side of caution if uncertain, though...

That erring would actually be to presume the disease spirit is sent from Mallia, and hence is Chaotic... As nothing good comes from such things (+1D3 POW aside 😋)

[soltakss]

16 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Are Disease spirits universally Chaotic, though? Neither the rulebook nor the Bestiary states this. I know there's this long discussion about whether Malia is always and everywhere Chaotic.

It doesn't matter to Chalana Arroy cultists.

Disease is the Enemy and Chalana Arroy is a goddess of Healing, with one of her focuses being the curing of disease.

Disease Spirits are the enemy and need to be destroyed.

 

[Akhôrahil]

Just now, soltakss said:

It doesn't matter to Chalana Arroy cultists.

Disease is the Enemy and Chalana Arroy is a goddess of Healing, with one of her focuses being the curing of disease.

Disease Spirits are the enemy and need to be destroyed.

Agree - I just meant that the discussion about Chaos was a red herring here. That’s not what makes driving out disease spirits spirits fine, it’s that they are disease spirits.

[Darius West]

On 9/23/2021 at 10:26 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

Had a series of combats in troll realms and the players hired a Xiola Umbar priestess. They were a bit surprised when told in no uncertain terms to allow enemies access to her skills as well as friends if they wished those skills to continue. I felt well within my rights to insist on this. This thread seems to agree as far as CAs are concerned.

She would be pretty weird for a XU priestess (or maybe she didn't like the party much).  Xiola Umbar priestesses have no restrictions on killing after all, and that used to be most of the attraction to playing them, they were the only non-pacifist healing cult for quite a while back in RQ2 times.  In my experience, Xiola Umbar priestesses weren't exactly front line fighters, but they were very partisan and were quite happy to stave in the heads of wounded enemies and then dig in and eat the brains before they got cold.  They were only remotely sentimental about troll lives for the most part, oh, and ransoms; they really got sentimental about ransoms.

[Bill the barbarian]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

She would be pretty weird for a XU priestess (or maybe she didn't like the party much).  Xiola Umbar priestesses have no restrictions on killing after all

Hmm, well I am not sure if you should take your disagreements up with the authors of Trollpak than, or with my interpretations of their fine work... The notes I have say they might well battle (to protect their charges) but the behaviour I describe is not beyond the pale.
 The following quotes are from RQ2 (classic) Trollpak’s Xiola Umbar’s Rune levels on page 92 all emphasis on these quotes and the following spoilers quotes from the Munrooms are mine.

Quote

 

Xiola Umbar is no warrior, nor is she a whimpering maid. Rune Lords are primarily protectors and healers, and must fight to defend their charges.

<snip>

Rune lords are expected to aid the helpless and weak, both by battling for them and by healing and comforting them. They have few restrictions, but they must give 90% of their income to the cult

<snip>

Xiola Umbar is a not-so-gentle goddess of healing, and her priestesses behave accordingly. They do not heal everyone, just those worthy to be saved or those that can be saved cheaply.

 

Now, I think I am fine on all points but one can question the cost of the healing or the worthiness (where it says saved cheaply and  worthy at the end). Mind you, the trolls had to get to her... so that saves some effort and may prove worthiness (the real costs in question) or am I reaching.

This quote is from the Munchrooms on page page 193 form the classic reissue of Trollpak.

Spoiler

Darna Farneeba is a Xiola Umbar priestess, the only full troll left in the colony. She represents a minor segment of troll society which feels pity rather than contempt for their misshapen spawn. She is well-versed in her arts, but is unaggressive and has pledged to never kill any intelligent nonchaos being.

Yep, I think I am okay on my readings. Your mileage will vary.

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

17 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

To a point, but presence or absence of Chaos Gift or Chaos Rune is kinda objective.

Yes. So please rate (cursed) Telmori, Cave Trolls and Sea Trolls on this criterion.

Spoiler

Or the trollkin in the Rainbow Mounds, given that their mother is a cave troll and would have passed on the taint if not the benefit. Or look at the charming Vamargic Eye-Necklace, great troll child of two cave trolls. Or at least at his burning, animated corpse.

What does it take to make a Lunar cultist chaotic? Accepting a Chaos Gift, voluntarily or not, sure. But below that?

[Joerg]

17 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Sense Chaos gives every indication of being objective, I believe (and is more available than RuneQuestSight). 

It still needs to be successfully applied, and can be fooled as it only alerts to the presence of Chaos, not its source. Is that person chaotic, or do they carry a Flawed Crystal? Or both? Or something else?

You won't be able to use Sense Chaos - even at 95+% - to screen infected from healthy folk either, even though people maintain that Disease Spirits are chaotic. (And well, IMG some are, many aren't. Same with undead.)

Edited December 5, 2021 by Joerg

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Yes. So please rate (cursed) Telmori, Cave Trolls and Sea Trolls on this criterion.

This depends on the details of CA theology - it's not that those listed aren't objectively chaotic in some manner, but where the cult draws the line. I imagine you shouldn't let your party-members kill the Telmori you just put to sleep.

48 minutes ago, Joerg said:

You won't be able to use Sense Chaos - even at 95+% - to screen infected from healthy folk either, even though people maintain that Disease Spirits are chaotic. (And well, IMG some are, many aren't. Same with undead.)

Well, CA cultists can't - they would presumably be aware that it isn't perfect. Storm Bulls likely think "if it registers, kill it!" and accept the collateral damage from any fumbles (with some exceptions - if it pings on some person you know or who seems unlikely, perhaps you'd better get a second opinion before decapitation) . (And also when you can just tell, of course.) The CA initiate will have to make a judgment and err on the side of caution, because unlike with Storm Bulls, being right 19 times out of 20 or perhaps even 99 times out of 100 just isn't good enough.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Ian_W]

On 12/5/2021 at 10:49 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

for a gm yes, maybe for a player, but imagine in glorantha. Do they know that people are "built" with /by runes. Do they know that this guy with dex 18 (3d6) is non chaotic but this one with 16 (6d6) is chaotic

how can they know (if they have never meet before) if this guy whith a bull head is a minautor and this one is a "civilized" broo ?

Storm Bull teaches Sense Chaos.

 

Everyone else figures it out from context, and, yes, mistakes are made.

 

Note other cultures see Chaos, Darkness and Storm as the same Bad Enemy of Right Order.

[Ian_W]

On 12/6/2021 at 3:48 AM, Joerg said:

What does it take to make a Lunar cultist chaotic? Accepting a Chaos Gift, voluntarily or not, sure. But below that?

 

Storm Bulls and good Orlanthi would reply 'Being a Lunar cultist' because the Red Moon involves accepting Chaos as a legitimate part of the world.

 

Any answer more sophisticated than that *is* Illuminated at best.

[Alex]

9 minutes ago, Ian_W said:

Any answer more sophisticated than that *is* Illuminated at best.

The first 'more sophisticated than that' answer would just be one that does some sort of case analysis of which lunar cults are involved.  Not all of them are associated with the Chaos rune, nor do they all require Illumination.

Of course simply pointing this out might indeed enrage a Stormbull to murderous fury, so if that's your acid test... 🙂

[Ian_W]

Hauling this back to Chalana Arroy, the fact that CA cultists don't have a 'except for Chaos' exemption on 'Do not kill' shows that she accepts chaos as part of the world (cf 'probably Illuminated by Rashoran in God Time').

 

Now, among fanatical anti-chaos cultures, CA gets a pass on that, IMO because they haven't thought it through properly, the Goddess' important role in things like the Lightbringer Quest, and the practical fact that her people are the difference between life and death in so many fanatically anti-chaos cultures.

 

But - the Lunars don't. Not all Lunar cults are associated with Chaos, but all Lunar cults accept the existence of those Lunar cults who are. They've answered 'Us or the Other' with 'We are all us'.

 

Note bad Orlanthi would go 'Oh, the chaotic parts of the Lunar Empire, yes they deserve to be attacked, and must be. But there arent any Chaos Worshippers at *our* Seven Mothers temple, or *our* Eytries trade post that brings us gin and other good things from the Heartlands. They are okay - they arent Bad Lunars'.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Ian_W

[Rodney Dangerduck]

There used to be a notable broo CA.  Not sure it's canonical anymore, but our group takes it as proof that CA is o.k. with Chaos, contrary to some of the recent materials.  As usual, YGMV.

As for Lunars accepting chaos, therefore all being deemed chaotic by association, remember that Prince Sartar the Great and Magnificent took Telmori as his bodyguards, and a later Prince of Sartar married a Telmori.  I early await your PC Storm Bulls and CA and Wind Lords calling out Argrath as Chaotic as he is one of their descendants.

It's complicated.

[Ian_W]

35 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

 

It's complicated.

If you're an Illuminate, yes. If you're a sophisticated close-to-Illuminate from a civilised culture, yes. If you're a God Learner, absolutely.

If you're a chaos-hating barbarian, it's pretty simple.

If it's weird, it's probably Chaos.

Do the Holy Senses of the Bull make it smell like chaos ? If no, then are there behaviors that indicate it might be of Gbaji the Deceiver, who Inner Storm Bull cult secrets whisper can make what is of Chaos smell pure ... asking weird questions, stuff like that ?

In the case of the Telmori, nope and nope, so they are man-wolves who turn into wolves and have some secret magics. 

On the other hand, the Lunars hang out with actual chaos monsters, and are proud of it.

And do the Chalana Arroy talk in public about Chalana Arroy-worshipping Broo ? Heck no. That's up there with Storm Bulls discussing the secrets of the Bulls Secret Parts, or Orlanthi admitting Ragnalaglar is actually the brother of the King of the Gods.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Ian_W

[Alex]

57 minutes ago, Ian_W said:

Hauling this back to Chalana Arroy, the fact that CA cultists don't have a 'except for Chaos' exemption on 'Do not kill' shows that she accepts chaos as part of the world (cf 'probably Illuminated by Rashoran in God Time').

Or think of it as commission/omission bias.  Or the sort of random weird geas some cults have.  Yelmalions don't consider (let's say) right leg armour to be foul and evil, it's just that some of them have a magical and ritual obligation not to wear it.

Note that they do have an "exception for chaos" exception in their "if I magics it, you no kills it" rule.

59 minutes ago, Ian_W said:

Note bad Orlanthi would go 'Oh, the chaotic parts of the Lunar Empire, yes they deserve to be attacked, and must be. But there arent any Chaos Worshippers at *our* Seven Mothers temple, or *our* Eytries trade post that brings us gin and other good things from the Heartlands. They are okay - they arent Bad Lunars'.

Which particular type of bad Orlanthi?  They seem a little like unhappy families in Russian novels -- so many different kinds!