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Establishing an Eurmal shrine


Scorus

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My Eurmal player (Issaries as far as all but a few know) wants to establish a shrine and become a Priest. What would be involved in establishing an Eurmal shrine? To a certain extent anything goes, I guess, but what parameters/process/rituals would be involved?

Also, are there any precedents for a mobile shrine? I seem to remember that certain military banners or Humakt swords are mobile shrines? Could a Mostakos make their chariot into a shrine, for instance?

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Is this some sort of trick question???

Issaries effectively have mobile shrines/temples, so you could use that idea.

In the RL, shrines are made virtually every day... In people's homes, in New businesses, etc. The appropriate paraphernalia are set up, and a big (or small for a household shrine) ritual is done by the priest/s, appropriate blessings given, sacrifices offered. In RQ terms, basically the same, except Sanctify is cast.

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1 hour ago, Scorus said:

My Eurmal player (Issaries as far as all but a few know) wants to establish a shrine and become a Priest. What would be involved in establishing an Eurmal shrine? To a certain extent anything goes, I guess, but what parameters/process/rituals would be involved?

Also, are there any precedents for a mobile shrine? I seem to remember that certain military banners or Humakt swords are mobile shrines? Could a Mostakos make their chariot into a shrine, for instance?

According to RQiG p.284, for  a Shrine you need 75 worshipers (both initiates and lay members) "present".  I would define present as worshiping there regularly, at least seasonally, not necessarily all in one place at the same time.  YGMV.  But to establish a shrine I would want all 75 present at the initial ceremony. 

There are indeed precedents for a mobile shrine, both tribal  in Prax and in the Orlanthi mobile temple carts during the Lunar occupation, as well as the Humakti regiments you cited.

Beyond that, I would say that there has to be something that makes the place permanently sacred.  This could be any one or more than one of:

[A}  Rune magic not listed in any rule book, but implied by

  (1) permanence, in excess of that given by a Sanctify spell, even with Extension,

  (2) the existing descriptions of the Lunar sanctification ceremony for the Sartar Temple of the Reaching Moon, until aborted by Dragonrise. 

Presumably priests would know how to do this, and the reason it's not in the rules is it's just not something that takes place at game-play scale.  As a GM I would punt and say such a ceremony will require the combined magic of several priests and the expenditure of many rune points or even of POW / one-use spells and serious sacrifices.

[B[ Another way also might be that the location was sanctified by a major mythological event.  Or even a minor event involving a major god.  It would appear that the Orlanthi temple site at Larnste's Table was sanctified by Larnste taking a lunch break there.   In Eurmal's case your priest might learn that Eurmal had ratfucked some other god at a particular location.  How would he learn this?  Cult lore?   Lankhor Mhy research?  Divination?  Maybe with a lot of hazia?  

[C] Possession of a physical item with religious significance, a relic.  Like a fragment of Ernalda's Mirror in the case of Ernalda. or maybe the bone or better yet the mummified phallus of a famous Eurmali.   

[D] I recommend that ANY establishment of a shrine or temple requires a wyter, and to get that wyter you have to do some sort of heroquest and get that cult spirit as a heroquest reward from the god.  This would provide a demanding adventure for the player(s) seeking to establish the shrine or temple.  See RQiG p.297, left column, last paragraph, on sacrificing POW to the wyter. Establishment of a shrine or temple would require such a sacrifice of POW from the assembled initiates at the dedication ceremony.  I suggest 10+ initiates.  This should require your adventurer to get the cooperation of a fairly large number of Eurmali -  which will be like herding cats.  This is serious adventure material. 

Maybe you could build up a shrine into a temple by sacrificing enough POW to build up the wyter into a serious temple protector , while a site or shrine could have a wimpy wyter.

Edited by Squaredeal Sten
grammar
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6 hours ago, Scorus said:

My Eurmal player (Issaries as far as all but a few know) wants to establish a shrine and become a Priest. What would be involved in establishing an Eurmal shrine? To a certain extent anything goes, I guess, but what parameters/process/rituals would be involved?

I'd start with establishing and maintaining a Site (page 315):

Quote

providing it with regular offerings and sacrifices, and typically costing between 25 and 200 L a season

Once your attendees reach 75, you can make it a shrine.

Due to this, I suspect may shrines are long established and linked to a specific action. This is especially true for Eurmal, as each shrine is a different aspect.

6 hours ago, Scorus said:

Also, are there any precedents for a mobile shrine? I seem to remember that certain military banners or Humakt swords are mobile shrines? Could a Mostakos make their chariot into a shrine, for instance?

Yes. Orlanth Adventurous shrines are based on carts.

 

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6 hours ago, Byll said:

First, grow your bananas...

banana-stand.gif.90f130f4f1b9b14e5f09af50dd48be8f.gif

An Eurmal shrine disguised as a banana stand... now that's a thing I'd like to see 😉

The interesting thing to me is that, since the Eurmali is disguised as an Issaries, they would have to tap into some kind of a secret network of tricksters to advertise their new Holy Site.

I'm not sure how one makes a new site/shrine/temple, but I assume they would need some "core regalia" or notable spirit or other important "thing" that makes that place good for worship (it's not scalable to have to cast Sanctify every time someone comes by). So I suppose the Eurmali would have to complete some adventure (possibly a heroquest but not necessarily) to acquire such a "thing".

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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18 hours ago, Scorus said:

What would be involved in establishing an Eurmal shrine? To a certain extent anything goes, I guess, but what parameters/process/rituals would be involved?

IMO, sites sacred to Eurmal are places where Eurmal DID something - usually something significant enough to mark it as important to Eurmal from some Godtime event.  Maybe it's the place where he soured Eiritha's milk; or where he betrayed Finovan; or where he lost his Ear; or where he riddled a day and a night with Donandar until Donandar's tongue got twisted.  Most of these places are not obvious, not even to Eurmal, unless culturally noted (e.g. Sit Here). 

There's likely a few ways to find these spots. 

1) Listen to a lot of local lore and stories, and find out where the Bad Luck place is.  That's sure to be a Eurmal site - though what he did there may not be known.

2) Participate as Eurmal or the Clown or similar roles in your community's sacred holy days.  Eurmal did something in those.  If you can repeatedly make the same event occur at that place during those rituals, then that's probably a good site.

3) Join a Heroquest and emulate Eurmal.  Perform Eurmal's deed in your own style.  And remember where you did it (which may be a challenge).  If it's a This-World Heroquest, then you can probably remember the site.  If it's an Otherworld Heroquest, trying to connect the Godtime spot to the mundane world may be a challenge - but as long as there is enough of a resonance, then your Eurmali can probably "make it so".

Once you've found a promising site, you're going to need to "Sanctify" it.  In Eurmal's case, this is probably contrary to what everyone or anyone else would do to sanctify a holy place.  Probably involves some ritual trick, but maybe if you can tie it into your clan's rituals, that may be enough.

And then you've probably got to do something to get Eurmal's attention.  Maybe you already understand what Eurmal did there, maybe not.  It may or may not be the same as what you did to find and sanctify the site.  I'd probably make this a Worship ritual to Eurmal, with the idea that if Eurmal is pleased, Eurmal will come. 

To transform it into a shrine, you need worshipers.  You're not likely to find 75+ tricksters nearby, so you need to trick your clansfolk into "worshiping" Eurmal.  It's kind of like a cuckoo laying an egg in another bird's nest.  You participate in one of their rituals, and get them to the "site".  How you get them to give Eurmal "energy" (i.e. MP) or offerings is your challenge.  But once you've done that, it's likely enough that you now have a Eurmali shrine. 

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On 9/12/2021 at 5:11 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

  (1) permanence, in excess of that given by a Sanctify spell, even with Extension,

You can't use Extension with a ritual like Sanctify that has no duration. There are no rules for how long Sanctify lasts, I think once nobody is maintaining the site then it ceases to be sacred in a few days at most.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

You can't use Extension with a ritual like Sanctify that has no duration. There are no rules for how long Sanctify lasts, I think once nobody is maintaining the site then it ceases to be sacred in a few days at most.

Phil is right:  Red Book of Magic clarified that, and it's even more restrictive:  Sanctify lasts until... "When the ceremonies cease, the spell effects expire."  And looking at Extension you are right:  Extension applies to "any Rune spell that has a normal duration of 15 minutes."  So you can't Extend Sanctify.  Which means that Sanctify is not what you use to make a shrine or temple.

Given the game-specific meaning of "Sanctify", we have run out of unique vocabulary to name in one word whatever you do do to make  the shrine permanently holy .  Nevertheless there is a Gloranthan method because many shrines exist.  Perhaps a heroquest beyond the gods' world to discover the procedure from Rick Meints?

 

 

Edited by Squaredeal Sten
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23 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

There are no rules for how long Sanctify lasts,

Sanctify, RBM 76:

Quote

When the ceremonies cease, the spell effects expire.

(and https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-14-rune-magic-spells/#Sanctify)

23 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think once nobody is maintaining the site then it ceases to be sacred in a few days at most.

So the secret is, not to end the ceremony. This is where cult spirits will come in. Having one continually worshipping or having a presence will tip a site over in to a shrine. I think there are many routes to this. Location of a godtime event, cult spirits, location of the site.

Edited by David Scott
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Thank you for these responses. Clearly there is a lot of precedent for a mobile shrine.

The comments about sites, shrines, etc. are understood and in the rules. But partly because they are consistent with the rules, I wonder if they apply to Eurmal?

According to RQG, in order to be a priest you must maintain a shrine. If shrines were as rare as I think is being argued here, there would be very few priests indeed. Is this how people see the cult working in their Glorantha?

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13 minutes ago, Scorus said:

But partly because they are consistent with the rules, I wonder if they apply to Eurmal?

According to RQG, in order to be a priest you must maintain a shrine. If shrines were as rare as I think is being argued here, there would be very few priests indeed. Is this how people see the cult working in their Glorantha?

Rules apply to Eurmal???  Surely you jest!  😉

In my view, anything goes with Eurmal.  But your clan clown/trickster will want to be able to regain/retain their connection to Eurmal, and gain his magic.  They will undoubtedly tend the local site/shrine in their own unique way (and probably differently from their predecessor).  Eurmal and his "priests" probably have a somewhat "parasitic" relationship to the various seasonal rituals undertaken by the community, and it's likely this is what provides sufficient magical energy that the trickster can become and maintain themself as a "priest". 

Then there will be those exiled Tricksters who wander from place-to-place and may even seek out trickster shrines, but they likely have a difficult and often short life.

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9 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Just a thought... I notice the topic is somewhat generic Eurmal. What about the specific sub-cults.

Orlanthi may tolerate Lightbringers, but I doubt many would allow a murderer or thief to live amongst them.

Bear in mind those are pretty central Orlanthi Trickster myths!  Eurmal's kinda the source of the whole 'death' trouble.  Steals(!) Death, kills Grandfather Mortal, plays lending, swapping, and stealing it back a few more times, etc, while others do likewise.  And he spends most of the LBQ stealing things (mostly) to order.

Naturally if you have a bonded Trickster, you can tell them to definitely not ever learn particular runemagic.  And you can trust their word that they'll do as you've told them -- right?

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1 hour ago, Alex said:

Naturally if you have a bonded Trickster, you can tell them to definitely not ever learn particular runemagic.  And you can trust their word that they'll do as you've told them -- right?

As soon as you start applying reverse psychology more than once, your bonded Eurmali might meeky obey your spoken word just to thwart your intent.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

As soon as you start applying reverse psychology more than once, your bonded Eurmali might meeky obey your spoken word just to thwart your intent.

Yes, that's the first corollary of Murphy's Law...  can't use it to beat itself.

But in this case I wasn't actually suggesting that intent!  Rather, trying to point out the difficulty of trying to keep the magical and ritual benefits of having a Trickster -- such as they are! -- while policing the 'unacceptable' subcults.

I suppose in theory you could try to find and deconsecrate or defile each shrine you wish to suppress the magic of...  No way that could ever possibly go righ--  eh, wrong... right?

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6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Just a thought... I notice the topic is somewhat generic Eurmal. What about the specific sub-cults.

Orlanthi may tolerate Lightbringers, but I doubt many would allow a murderer or thief to live amongst them.

The way I see it, a trickster isn't just a single-subcult member. You can be a member of multiple subcults of any cult, you can be in both Adventurous and Thunderous for example, and this is especially true of tricksters. You find a shrine, you aren't a member of that particular subcult, so to worship at that shrine and get a Rune Point you join the subcult (going through whatever dangerous humiliation the incumbent maintainer demands) and you learn their spell at the same time.

Sometimes someone needs a damn good killing, and it's against the rules. That's when you need a trickster.

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On 9/12/2021 at 5:07 AM, Byll said:

First, grow your bananas...

Of course, gags that grow on trees. Grow banana tree, and produce a crop of bananas... give away, sell, or eat the bananas... leave peels around, hilarity ensues

Giant bananas optional!

 

Edited by Bill the barbarian
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... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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14 hours ago, Alex said:

I suppose in theory you could try to find and deconsecrate or defile each shrine you wish to suppress the magic of...  No way that could ever possibly go righ--  eh, wrong... right?

How exactly do you go about defiling a Eurmal shrine, though?

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

How exactly do you go about defiling a Eurmal shrine, though?

Quite.  The mind truly Boggles.  We're deep into scifi-horror territory here.  "You blew it up, and now there's even more of them!"

The only vaguely plausible method to spring to mind would to start organised membership drives with solemn initiation oaths...

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15 hours ago, Alex said:

Yes, that's the first corollary of Murphy's Law...  can't use it to beat itself.

 

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

The only vaguely plausible method to spring to mind would to start organised membership drives with solemn initiation oaths...

You were saying?

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

How exactly do you go about defiling a Eurmal shrine, though?

Possibly carve Truth and Law runes into the altar? 

Here's another thought: Eurmal isn't Chaotic, it's Disorder and Illusion - so possibly making it sacred to a Chaos cult would do the job.  This is when your vengeful Orlanthi are tempted to do evil "for the greater good". 

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