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WFRP Style Fate points in BRP?


AikiGhost

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How did you gain them in the James Bond game?

Did they have some sort of in-game rationale or where they purely meta?

There was no in-game rationale at all. Spending Hero Points was not viewed as something that the character was doing, but something that was happening because he was the hero. The out of game rational was that Bond does pull off the impossible at times (along with the highly improbable) and so should be able to do so in the game from time to time, and so should the PCs.

The official way was by rolling a Quality Rating 1 result (the best possible) when doing something. This is equivalent to rolling a critical (actually a bit better since a QR1 was 1/10 the success chance) on any roll except for combat and chases (because those actions tended to call for a lot more rolls). An option to allow Hero Points for rolls in for combat and chases was mentioned and in fact in at least one of their published adventures is was strongly recommended so that the character could make it through the mission (Live & Let Die, a real nasty one). My house rule was to permit ONE hero point from any fight or chase.

There was also a big loophole in the offical rules allowing the GM to come up with other ways to earn Hero Points. The two most common ones I saw were to award point for doing heroic things (so you get points for saving the world), and allowing players to buy some with experience. The game gave out experience points that players spent to improve their characters. Buying Hero Points was sort of a mixed blessing, as XP spent on Hero Points was XP that wasn;t being spent to improve the character.

Another neat thing about them was that players could spend them, with GM permission to make minor alternations to the game world. For instance a character who is inside the villains Castle, could spent a Point to find a sword on the wall, or maybe even a loaded flintlock pistol.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Another neat thing about them was that players could spend them, with GM permission to make minor alternations to the game world. For instance a character who is inside the villains Castle, could spent a Point to find a sword on the wall, or maybe even a loaded flintlock pistol.

I've heard of some games doing that sort of thing...

I think, for myself, I'd make the player justify why the 'alteration' should take place... why is there a loaded gun in the drawer? why would there be a sword on the wall?... and base the decision to allow it on how convincing his/her justification is.

That sort of thing doesn't bug me as much as re-rolls... it's proactive and imaginative.

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I generally prefer just fighting less, than having fate points. You can change things quite a bit just by tweaking hit points though

That's one reason I don't care for fate points generally... I feel that combat, generally, should be a last resort... a desperate move... dangerous enough that you will try all sorts of things to avoid it... and if you have to fight, you'll fight dirty... within the game you'll do all you can to make matters weigh in to your advantage... like setting up traps and ambushes.

As a player I want to really feel the tension of heading down a path towards violence... I want there to dire consequences.

Knowing I can get a roll-over mitigates too much of that tension for my tastes.

I can understand though, that for a lot of people the kind of stories they prefer, like the afore-mentioned James Bond scenarios, don't really feel right if you steer away from spontaneous gunplay...

Maybe that's where increasing hit points and making good use of luck rolls comes in handy.

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I generally prefer just fighting less, than having fate points. You can change things quite a bit just by tweaking hit points though

Yeah, but it isn't just damage capacity. For instance, when playing a solo or with a small group a fumble, especially in combat, can end the campaign. I once had a character who in the first attack of the battle of the campaign was on the wrong end of an 01. It happens. It's nice to be able to mitigate that suff a little.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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That's one reason I don't care for fate points generally... I feel that combat, generally, should be a last resort... a desperate move... dangerous enough that you will try all sorts of things to avoid it... and if you have to fight, you'll fight dirty... within the game you'll do all you can to make matters weigh in to your advantage... like setting up traps and ambushes.

As a player I want to really feel the tension of heading down a path towards violence... I want there to dire consequences.

Knowing I can get a roll-over mitigates too much of that tension for my tastes.

Some of that depends on the nature of the game. With Bond it worked because combat was so freakin' deadly. You don't have hit points, but instead take wounds based on the success level of the attack and the damage class of the weapon. So if you get hit for a KL (=Kill) result. you are dead. So in that case, being able to spend a point ot two to turn a KL into a HW (Heavy Wound) helps but keeps the tension.

"Roll overs" only applied in two specific circumstances. One was a tied draw roll (you rolled again to see who shot first). The other was when someone rolled off the table and ha to get thier dice off the floor.

I can understand though, that for a lot of people the kind of stories they prefer, like the afore-mentioned James Bond scenarios, don't really feel right if you steer away from spontaneous gunplay...

Yeah. Some campaigns are very combat heavy. Bond actually encourages avoiding combat, and stresses than hand to hand is usually a better option than gun play (the more people you kill the bigger the paper trail you leave. Not good for a spy). Still, a climatic showdown is traditional.

Also since characters earned Hero Points through thier non-combat actions it gave them more incentive to do non combat stuff. I once saw a guy rack up 10 hero points early in an adventure when he cleaned the bad guy out at the casino and stole his girlfriend. :D

He ended up needing those 10 points by the end of the night. Someone really didn't like him.

Maybe that's where increasing hit points and making good use of luck rolls comes in handy.

I'm not a fan of increasing hit points. Basically, if you have a Hero Point or two, you might think you can get away with something, but if you have a lot of hit points you know it. D&D/D20 is a good example of that. A guy with 100 Hit Points isn't too worried about being killed with one shot.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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I've heard of some games doing that sort of thing...

I think, for myself, I'd make the player justify why the 'alteration' should take place... why is there a loaded gun in the drawer? why would there be a sword on the wall?... and base the decision to allow it on how convincing his/her justification is.

Some games do it that way. Like SPirirt of the Century. There a character can make a declaration. That is they use a skill to make up some fact or detai, and spend a Fate point to make it happen. If they make their skill test, then the fact is true (i.e. "The Eqgyptians would often build a secret door in their tombs."). The difficulty of the roll is set by the GM.

Bond on the other hand uses a sort of two stage process for such things. First, you have to coninve the GM to let it happen. So finding a loaded gun in the desk of a mafia Don would probably be more likely to fly that finding a loaden gun in the desk draw of mother superior). Likewise, finding a sword hanging on a castle wall is an easy sell, finding on on the wall at McDonald's isn't.

Also the GM can make something cost more than one Hero Point. So falling out a building onto an awning might cost 1 hero point. Falling onto a passing flatbed truck loaded with mattresses would be a lot more pricey.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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In my experience, a mechanic of this nature (Fate, Hero, Action, etc.) doesn't alter game play significantly. I have come to enjoy their use in the game systems that utilize them.

I agree, at leat in most cases. If the mechaic is fast to use, and restricted in the number of times you can use it, it works fine.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Even in heroic fantasy? I mean I can see your point in CoC but how about a LoTR inspired game for example?

Not everybody likes to play heroic fantasy games. At least I dont. (maybe Simlasa and some others too) The motto in my games is: What you roll, you get. No bargain with destiny. No revision.

BRP/RQ was a genius rule system without using fate points the last 20 years and I have no reason to believe that this has changed recently.

BTW: Hero Points in WFRP2 are maybe fun for some players, but they are working against the original intention of the grim and unforgiving setting. I hate their use in our WFRP2 games. They steal much flair because they give life in situations where Khorne wants blood. I fear the 2nd edition of the game favors the carebear fraction now. :)

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Well, I don't necessarily see a conflict between this type of mechanic and grim settings. After all, there are heroes in grim settings as well.

You mean that guy who goes around dressed as a bat?>:->

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Well, I don't necessarily see a conflict between this type of mechanic and grim settings. After all, there are heroes in grim settings as well.

I think there is no conflict as long as you dont define "hero" as someone who has more chances to resolve a game situation than an ordinary person just because his figure is a PC and not a NPC. In my rather gritty and grim games heroes are not predetermined. Of course there is heroism sometimes too, but it comes from a decision a player makes during the game and not because he has the privlege to use a dice manipulating "hero tool".

I would not have a problem to use hero points in games like James Bond (for some stunts he really needs every hero point) or LoTR setting. But normally I find such settings with predetermined heroes rather cheesy and bland and dont want to play it.

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In my mind, players characters are heroes by definition no matter the game system or setting.

I am rather fond of the grim-and-gritty style and settings myself and I can identify with your point of view. However, I still like the concept and have no problem with using this mechanic in conjuction with a grim-and-gritty setting. It just has to be mananged properly, and the benefits of the mechanic have to be carefully balanced so that it doesn't drastically alter the flow of events (i.e. spending a point mystically heals all wounds, etc.).

BRP Ze 32/420

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I generally prefer just fighting less, than having fate points. You can change things quite a bit just by tweaking hit points though

Some genres and settings don't provide "fighting less" as an option; if you're trying to run a modern action movie setting, fighting is going to happen. Quite a bit.

Its actually an issue mostly with genres that either are less lethal intrinsically (superheroes for the most part) or where lethality is high but selective (most action-movie subgenres); in particular, the latter can be well served by something like hero points because it allows the general system to be fairly unforgiving, while still providing a mechanism to shield the heroes from some of its effects (and also allow them a slightly greater ability to pull off the occasionally outrageous).

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Not everybody likes to play heroic fantasy games. At least I dont.

Em, well its not like you have to use fate points. I just think they are a nice option for more heroic genres (High fantasy, Pulp adventure, etc)

BRP/RQ was a genius rule system without using fate points the last 20 years and I have no reason to believe that this has changed recently.

I agree that BRP is an awsome game system (probably my favourite of all time though I prefer SB5 to RQ) but that doesnt mean that it should never have new options or ideas added to it IMHO.

BTW: Hero Points in WFRP2 are maybe fun for some players, but they are working against the original intention of the grim and unforgiving setting. I hate their use in our WFRP2 games. They steal much flair because they give life in situations where Khorne wants blood. I fear the 2nd edition of the game favors the carebear fraction now. :)

Whereas I think WFRP second edition is vastly superior mechanically to first edition. I just runs more smoothely and "gets out of the way" in much the same way as BRP does in game.

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Well I think this difference in gaming philosophy is the main reason why you like hero points and I dont. :)

I think it also has to do with the setting you are gaming in. For instance, some of us have been discussing using BRP for an Old West game. Problem is, weapon damagfes are high (actually too high) and there is no armor. So most fights will endup with someone dying after the second of third shot, with little in the way the can do for defense (Dodge is both low and limited).

A Hero Point option is one way around that. Otherwise the setting really isn't playable. You will simply end up loosing too many PCs.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Maybe, if they choose to play a game where their characters 'live by the gun'... but I can see lots of Western type tales that wouldn't involve gunfights every few minutes... and lots of roleplaying to try to AVOID the dangers of violence.

Again, it's a matter of taste... I like all sorts of different flavors of Westerns... some are ultra-violent... some aren't.

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Maybe, if they choose to play a game where their characters 'live by the gun'... but I can see lots of Western type tales that wouldn't involve gunfights every few minutes... and lots of roleplaying to try to AVOID the dangers of violence.

Again, it's a matter of taste... I like all sorts of different flavors of Westerns... some are ultra-violent... some aren't.

Not really. Even with a low amount of gunfighting, the results don't change, just the frequency. Sooner or later weapons will be used, at least somewhat. Once that happens it is simply a case of mathematics. With no armor to speak of an no parry, and limited dodging, the casualty rate will be high. Much higher than it was historically.

Melee combat had things like armor, shields and parries to mitigate the weapon damages. With CoC it din't matter much, since you were lucky if the opposition were using firearms.

With BRP two shots from most firearms will take most characters down to zero HP.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Melee combat had things like armor, shields and parries to mitigate the weapon damages.

Yes, I also worry about the lethality of BRP/RQ outside fantasy settings - i.e. without Divine Intervention, magical Healing/Resurrection etc.

So I have tried a sort-of Fate Points system, giving characters 1% Dodge per FP (that's all - they can't spend 'em on anything, so no re-rolls, resurrections or story-fiddling). I'm not entirely happy with it, but some mechanism like that (which doesn't refer to Holy/Magic powers - just "Luck") might help make such settings playable. Something like RQ2 Defence, perhaps?

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Yes, I also worry about the lethality of BRP/RQ outside fantasy settings - i.e. without Divine Intervention, magical Healing/Resurrection etc.

So I have tried a sort-of Fate Points system, giving characters 1% Dodge per FP (that's all - they can't spend 'em on anything, so no re-rolls, resurrections or story-fiddling). I'm not entirely happy with it, but some mechanism like that (which doesn't refer to Holy/Magic powers - just "Luck") might help make such settings playable. Something like RQ2 Defence, perhaps?

I don't thing Defense will work. All you end up doing is dropping the hit chances a little. Personally I favor the 1 Luck/POW point to shift the success rating approach probably with a Luck roll to limit it.

For the BRP Old West threat, I suggested swiping from Boot Hill 3rd edition. If an attack would kill a character you make a Luck save, and if successful turn the hit into a 1 point wound for a MP.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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