Deities manifesting themselves

[AndrewTBP]

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

it's my impression that the dream dragon THINKS it is the goddess / demigoddess.

Yerezum Storn received worship under the EWF, and it demanded it of my players in 13th Age Glorantha, but the Orlanthi had sworn oaths to King Berevenenos, and the Uz had accepted the mission from Sarna Ya'qal, so that came to naught. 

The Uz Monk of Sky River Titan captured the spirit of Yerezum Storn in his shield of tears, which I'm sure will not have complications at all. 😉

[Alex]

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

it's my impression that the dream dragon THINKS it is the goddess / demigoddess.

Fake it until you make it!

[Martin]

May I ask this.....

When a hero acts within the other side they often do so as the god they worship; assuming the mythic identity and enacting the experiences of their god within the acts of the godtime...right?.....

So... if a Hero asserts their own mortal desires (free will) and acts in a way that defies the mythic identity of the god whose deeds they are performing during a Heroquest; does  that violate the Compromise...as those sort of deeds that are not within the  nature of the deity and the  realm of the myth they are performing could have an impact on the Mortal World?

Edited September 22, 2021 by Martin

[Akhôrahil]

38 minutes ago, Martin said:

So... if a Hero asserts their own mortal desires (free will) and acts in a way that defies the mythic identity of the god whose deeds they are performing during a Heroquest; does  that violate the Compromise...as those sort of deeds that are not within the  nature of the deity and the  realm of the myth they are performing could have an impact on the Mortal World?

I don't think so - for one thing, you're interacting on a Hero Plane which isn't the same thing as the Gods World, and for another, you would only make a small contribution to all the other rituals and heroquests done over time that support the status quo. Perhaps lots and lots of alternate-outcome heroquests will slowly change the myth, but even then, it's not a Compromise breach.

Back it up the Secret of the God-Learners though, and you're cooking with gas!

Edited September 22, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[simonh]

2 hours ago, Martin said:

So... if a Hero asserts their own mortal desires (free will) and acts in a way that defies the mythic identity of the god whose deeds they are performing during a Heroquest; does  that violate the Compromise...as those sort of deeds that are not within the  nature of the deity and the  realm of the myth they are performing could have an impact on the Mortal World?

Mostly this is a horrible mistake and such heroes never come back.

[Eff]

3 hours ago, Martin said:

May I ask this.....

When a hero acts within the other side they often do so as the god they worship; assuming the mythic identity and enacting the experiences of their god within the acts of the godtime...right?.....

So... if a Hero asserts their own mortal desires (free will) and acts in a way that defies the mythic identity of the god whose deeds they are performing during a Heroquest; does  that violate the Compromise...as those sort of deeds that are not within the  nature of the deity and the  realm of the myth they are performing could have an impact on the Mortal World?

It wouldn't violate the Compromise, as it's not happening in the Middle World. However, if they manage to deliberately break away from the mythic identity they are performing in the Heroquest but retain a connection to that mythic identity, they have discovered a new variant on the myth. And if they lose that connection, they either are ejected from the Otherside in a rapid comedown or they've spontaneously rediscovered Arkati techniques and may proceed along the pathways of a different myth. 

[Alex]

5 hours ago, Martin said:

May I ask this.....

You certainly may!  Only risk is that we might answer you. 😄

5 hours ago, Martin said:

When a hero acts within the other side they often do so as the god they worship; assuming the mythic identity and enacting the experiences of their god within the acts of the godtime...right?.....

Any theistic interaction with a deity will do this, to a degree.  (A degree you could maybe try to quantify, if that's your vibe, but I mean in a fairly general, hand-wavy way.)  If you sack a point of POW -- sorry, wrong sub-forum! -- to initiate to Ernalda, you're a little bit identified with her.  If you manifest her virtues, and sack for her rune magic, more and more so.  But you're still a free-willed being, of course, not simply an Ernalda-avatar at lozenge-level.

5 hours ago, Martin said:

So... if a Hero asserts their own mortal desires (free will) and acts in a way that defies the mythic identity of the god whose deeds they are performing during a Heroquest; does  that violate the Compromise...as those sort of deeds that are not within the  nature of the deity and the  realm of the myth they are performing could have an impact on the Mortal World?

This is hard and dangerous to do, it goes without saying.  Most likely results are you get the screen of 'lost in the heroplane', or you get dumped out of the ritual on yer arse, or worse.  But it can be done!  And in a way it's essential to all heroquesting.  After all, you're seeking to at least slightly expand the nature of the deity as it was magically known to her cult -- presumably the typical good-faith HQer sees this not as contradicting the fundamental nature of the goddess, but of discovering it and adapting it to the thing-wrong-in-the-world you're HQing to fix.

[Alex]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I don't think so - for one thing, you're interacting on a Hero Plane which isn't the same thing as the Gods World, and for another, you would only make a small contribution to all the other rituals and heroquests done over time that support the status quo. Perhaps lots and lots of alternate-outcome heroquests will slowly change the myth, but even then, it's not a Compromise breach.

Yeah, the average HQ is a 'spot fix'.  (Well, the average one is probably a spot failure or a spot disaster -- the average successful one!)  You enact and adapt the myth just enough to take care of the local circumstance.  If you're a big-cheese HQer, that turns into a hero cult, and maybe even one that survives your mortal existence.  If it catches on beyond all reasonable expectation, it might make it to local subcult.

If the actions embodied are seriously jarring with the standard cult of the deity, then it's presumably even less likely to become a thing, and if it does, it has 'schism' and 'religious war' written all over it.

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, Martin said:

So... if a Hero asserts their own mortal desires (free will) and acts in a way that defies the mythic identity of the god whose deeds they are performing during a Heroquest; does  that violate the Compromise...as those sort of deeds that are not within the  nature of the deity and the  realm of the myth they are performing could have an impact on the Mortal World?

No, because you are taking the role of your deity, you are not your deity.

6 hours ago, Eff said:

However, if they manage to deliberately break away from the mythic identity they are performing in the Heroquest but retain a connection to that mythic identity, they have discovered a new variant on the myth.

Which is how Sects and so forth are started.

 

[PhilHibbs]

11 hours ago, Martin said:

So... if a Hero asserts their own mortal desires (free will) and acts in a way that defies the mythic identity of the god whose deeds they are performing during a Heroquest; does  that violate the Compromise...as those sort of deeds that are not within the  nature of the deity and the  realm of the myth they are performing could have an impact on the Mortal World?

I think if you push it too far, then perhaps. Maybe that's what the God Learners did.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

No, because you are taking the role of your deity, you are not your deity.

If you do it right, then yes you are your deity.

[Joerg]

11 hours ago, Martin said:

May I ask this.....

When a hero acts within the other side they often do so as the god they worship; assuming the mythic identity and enacting the experiences of their god within the acts of the godtime...right?.....

Right. A heroquester takes on an identity compatible with the entry rites into the heroquest or hero plane. Most heroquesters will attempt to maintain their identification and the myth for as much of their heroquest as possible, keeping it predictable to an extent, and avoiding identification crises.

More advanced heroquesters might enter the myth as a side character or item added in the Arming rite to the protagonist who acts as the entry shuttle into the world of myths, then at some point assert the hidden real identity of that companion or item as the deity they intend to identify with, and at a suitable crossroads establish a different route for themselves and at least some of their companions. (It might be desirable to let the original quester continue with his quest within normal parameters to avoid the community sponsoring that entry having to bear negative backlash from not completing that rite/minor quest).

 

11 hours ago, Martin said:

So... if a Hero asserts their own mortal desires (free will) and acts in a way that defies the mythic identity of the god whose deeds they are performing during a Heroquest; does  that violate the Compromise...

No. The Compromise seeks to prevent the gods acting on their free will (rather than established precedent) in the mundane world.

A hero enacting mortal desires and free will in Godtime will add to the body of myths for and around the deity she embodies. She will become a cult hero adding a new feat (and rune spell) to the deity, at least at the temple the quest started from, and receive her own sub-shrine at the shrine of that deity.

 

11 hours ago, Martin said:

as those sort of deeds that are not within the  nature of the deity

Asserting Free Will on a heroquest creates an Otherworld presence of the heroquester enacting that will. This amount of Free Will is now set in Godtime, and binds the heroquester to that feat. The heroquester establishes a new facet of the deity through this insertion of self into the mythic body.

 

11 hours ago, Martin said:

and the  realm of the myth they are performing could have an impact on the Mortal World?

Definitely. This new outgrowth of the divine entity can become a one-off major effect in the world, such as Tanian's Victory or Hon-eel's contribution to the Night of Horrors (or was it Nights of Horror?). It could become a repeatable feat for the heroquester, like Hofstaring's Tree Leaping. Or it could become a cult spell - usually a rune spell, although spirit spells are a possible outcome, too. In all of these cases, a magic is enacted on the Mortal World.