So, who survived Argrath's 2nd Lightbringer Quest?

[RoadScholar]

Hi there. First time poster. Be gentle.

I'm considering a post-apocalyptic game set in Pavis/The Valley of Cradles. The setting opening would be the first days after the Gods die in the Second Lightbringer Quest. 

I want a PA style landscape, so I'm already assuming the world has changed and is less 'epic/mythic', with a general loss of magic, in all it's senses, across the world. Other planes, easy access to spirits and direct divine interactions are all harder or gone, in ways that are too boring/intricate to bewail in detail.

I wanted to pick a few Gloranthaphiles minds about the trickiest of the questions this idea sets; namely, who is still around being all god-like?

King of Sartar, p233 "Argrath and the Devil".
So, Argrath then, and the Spider Spirit, and the other few which had survived, blessed the world and sent the good things which they had found out from their center and as gifts to the world of the living. And since that time, that world has been our world.

The bolding is my own. Pure conjecture, I know, but who are your candidates for the 'other few'? 

Personally, I'm assuming Trickster survives. Arachne Solara, or there's no one to write the Saga. Argrath himself [but not for a while] In terms of comic balance, I'm assuming Uleria [who seems to survive everything] as a balance to Trickster [in the role of death bringer].

After that, I'm reaching. Of the things that aren't really gods, I'm assuming there's still [cosmic] dragons, and perhaps an Invisible God [I'm inclined to go negative here, but only to leave sorcery as much of a shattered mess as Divine magics].

I also notice that the names of the gods [Orlanth at least] have not been forgotten when devoured by chaos, but that's another matter.

 

 

 

[Alex]

2 hours ago, RoadScholar said:

Hi there. First time poster. Be gentle.

Welcome!  I offer you a blanket!  Be gentle with us too, this is some fast and tricky bowling you're opening up with. 😄

2 hours ago, RoadScholar said:

I want a PA style landscape, so I'm already assuming the world has changed and is less 'epic/mythic', with a general loss of magic, in all it's senses, across the world. Other planes, easy access to spirits and direct divine interactions are all harder or gone, in ways that are too boring/intricate to bewail in detail.

PA as in Pennsylvania?  That sounds not just less magical, but a little bit "then it rains on Arrakis", too!  Which could be rather fitting.  (Greg was sitting next to a rather verdant English Midlands croquet lawn when he gestured in impromptu illustration of what the Fourth Age might be like, after all!)

2 hours ago, RoadScholar said:

King of Sartar, p233 "Argrath and the Devil".
So, Argrath then, and the Spider Spirit, and the other few which had survived, blessed the world and sent the good things which they had found out from their center and as gifts to the world of the living. And since that time, that world has been our world.

The bolding is my own. Pure conjecture, I know, but who are your candidates for the 'other few'? 

Now there's a question.  And how many is 'a few', anyway?  If this is like the Hindu "but how many gods are there really, O sadhu?" routine, then fewer wouldn't imply a drastic change as such.  So perhaps this is mostly an explainer for "... rune magic dun work no more", rather than a handful of the gods working as before, and the others gone completely?  Though of course it might be a combination of the two...

2 hours ago, RoadScholar said:

Personally, I'm assuming Trickster survives. Arachne Solara, or there's no one to write the Saga. Argrath himself [but not for a while] In terms of comic balance, I'm assuming Uleria [who seems to survive everything] as a balance to Trickster [in the role of death bringer].

Trickster's self-balancing in that regard already, of course.  He'll potentially kill anyone -- or fatally betray them, even better -- but he's even more likely to...  reproduce with them.  Or to keep on gamely trying, actual reproduction or likely prospects of such himself.

2 hours ago, RoadScholar said:

After that, I'm reaching. Of the things that aren't really gods, I'm assuming there's still [cosmic] dragons, and perhaps an Invisible God [I'm inclined to go negative here, but only to leave sorcery as much of a shattered mess as Divine magics].

The Malkioni are at least primed to expect everything to get an order of magnitude worse with each Action.  If their transcendent god is now even more inaccessible, it doesn't necessarily change the form of their religion perceptibly, though same can't be said for their magic, indeed.  In theory that'd be true of the Kralori draconic-themed religion, but one wonders if they were slow-rolling their 'mysticism delayed, but empire all day every day' magical take so much that it might not survive being hollowed out in that manner.  Or conversely, they just slide seamlessly from 'Draconic Realization with Kralori characteristics' to 'unreconstructed materialism with same'.

Or here's another possible cheesy plot twist.  The Great Darkness was once glossed (no doubt now post-canonically, and maybe straight from pre-canonical to that status, but for the sake of argument) as a little local Central Genertelan difficulty, and not to have affected the Kralori significantly at all.  What if the same were true of the Argrapocalypse?  If you were looking for a rationale for a Disney+-type apocalypse with a normative ending...

2 hours ago, RoadScholar said:

I also notice that the names of the gods [Orlanth at least] have not been forgotten when devoured by chaos, but that's another matter.

But perhaps emptied of their power in some way?  Now this isn't Earthsea, but if your deity is forcibly Deed Polled in some way that makes their existing rites -- and initiatory bonds? -- ineffective...

But if we steer into the 'every 600 years' thing as an ongoing pattern, then surely we're also looking for parallels from past Ages and parallel myths.  Don't we need a new -- or new-in-role -- Seven Lightbringers?  (And/or Mothers.)  What's the nature of the new Compromise?  Is it the "God Plane recedes a (big) step" concept in itself?

[scott-martin]

5 hours ago, Alex said:

If their transcendent god is now even more inaccessible, it doesn't necessarily change the form of their religion perceptibly, though same can't be said for their magic, indeed. 

If a hero war can't finally kill zzabur once and for all we need to do it again.

However I think something like an issaries will respawn and pick up where the old age left off. It's happened before. Smart people will have hedges in place.

[Akhôrahil]

I wonder how much sorcery would be affected - in a way, sorcery is just the physics of Glorantha.

[Eff]

My take is that the gods are more or less still intact and present and what happens is that the process of relating to them changes. So the writer of the "Argrath and the Devil" fragment concludes that, because the typical method of communicating with the gods has stopped working, the gods are mostly dead. But they are aware of some gods that can still be contacted, including the deified Argrath. So they put together a narrative where Argrath and a few other gods survive, but most are dead. 

 

Perhaps what is happening is a shift to a less priest-mediated religion- the connection is weaker overall, the feats of Rune magic seem fictional- but anyone can talk to Orlanth without needing the ceremonies of olden times. And with this decentralized religion, individuation of deities is inevitable- identifying two deities as the same is no longer aided by the mass, communal nature of religious ceremonies. 

And then by the time of the Zin Letters and the compilation of "King of Sartar" by "GS", the rediscovery of magic has progressed still further. After all, they can read and write again.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I wonder how much sorcery would be affected - in a way, sorcery is just the physics of Glorantha.

It shouldn't be unless the ability to harness the underlying Runes as been changed.

1 hour ago, Eff said:

My take is that the gods are more or less still intact and present and what happens is that the process of relating to them changes.

That's my take as well - that many/most simply become inaccessible, or their magic is inaccessible.

There's still a Sun, still Earth, still have Water and Air and Fire.  Therefore something of the deities remains within the world.  But the easy access to the God Time via Worship is largely closed off or forgotten.

[EricW]

Humakt also survives...

Quote - King of Sartar

 

...

“Enemy of Mine, stop before me!” said Argrath, “you have come again to destroy us, as you have done to our forefathers before us. Every 600 years you have come2, and this is the time we have forecast to behold you, again and again each time until you are gone for good.”

And then Argrath told them what to do. The gods were as one, and they wrapped the evil invader with the great net, and each of them held it strong and pulled upon it.

Argrath was never bound to the old ways, but was still subject to them. This was when his Trickster betrayed him. For in that moment that the great council all pulled upon the net, then they were all caught up by it, wrapped together like a bag of squirrels in a string sack.

Wakboth reached for it, and with terrifying bites and gnashings, consumed them all. And while it was doing that, Argrath seized the moment, and with the Lightbringers Sword he pierced the demon, and revealed its emptiness for what it was. He said, “We must accept our portion of Life, and slay all who would murder us.”

And he killed the serpent which had wrapped itself about him and wounded him. And then with the Unbreakable Sword he cut the corpse into pieces, and found only dead things inside. He gave parts of the body away to his allies as gifts.

So Argrath then, and Spider Spirit, and the other few which had survived, blessed the world, and sent the good things which they had found out from their center and as gifts to the world of the living. And since that time, that world has been our world.

...

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

I can’t see any potential problems with giving away parts of Wakboth as gifts.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Martin Dick]

I would guess Mr Hill of Gold himself (Yelmalio)

And quite possibly Ms Midwife of Time (Ernalda), after all, that's what Husband-Protectors are for 🥰

Edited October 1, 2021 by Martin Dick

[Akhôrahil]

Eurmal only convinced everyone he was among the dead. It's the perfect alibi.

(Probably masterminded the whole thing, come to think of it. Nice trick, right?)

Edited October 1, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[jajagappa]

51 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Eurmal only convinced everyone he was among the dead. It's the perfect alibi.

Or Eurmal has convinced all the mortals that the gods are dead, and can no longer be reached.  Eliminates a lot of issues for him.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I am not sure that we should understand dead as "dead"

before the "event"

we already know dead gods (or equivalent)

Yelm is dead every night, but he has a lot of worshippers and provides strong magic

grand father mortal is dead all the time but is a very powerful entity (DF)

 

then, after the "event" it seems there is an issue to contact gods, so mortals could say the gods are dead because they don't answer.. but the fact is the gods don't answer, not you can see their bodies destroyed.

this new age could be that now, the gods souls / wills are too far to be contacted

their bodies are here (the sun, the wind, the water, ...) but their spirits not.

maybe this new law of the universe is mortal cannot do anymore what their gods did (no more rune spell, no more heroquesting, maybe no  more magic I don't know)  It could be a good idea : if there is no more runic power, there is no more chaotic runic powers, you cannot invoke cacodemon anymore, you cannot transform your body, you cannot obtain heads knowledge etc...

the chaos in mundane world could be easily destroyed then

the new compromise may be "no gods even chaotic, could do anything in the mundane world, even with worshipper's help/request"

 

 

[AlHazred]

On 9/30/2021 at 4:29 AM, Alex said:

PA as in Pennsylvania?  That sounds not just less magical, but a little bit "then it rains on Arrakis", too!  Which could be rather fitting.  (Greg was sitting next to a rather verdant English Midlands croquet lawn when he gestured in impromptu illustration of what the Fourth Age might be like, after all!)

I would assume PA as in "Post-Apocalyptic" -- the Mad Max series, La Jetée, 12 Monkeys, that sort of thing.

[Joerg]

Just now, AlHazred said:

I would assume PA as in "Post-Apocalyptic" -- the Mad Max series, La Jetée, 12 Monkeys, that sort of thing.

That's "continuing apocalyptic" chic rather than "post-apocalyptic". For an example of the latter, look at Dawn Age to modern Glorantha. Although it would be fairer to say "post-cataclysmic" than "post-apocalyptic", I suppose. The Apocalypse is the confrontation with the Ultimate, and beyond that lies a form of transcendence. Glorantha had its Ragnarök, but not quite its Apocalypse.

[Alex]

1 hour ago, AlHazred said:

I would assume PA as in "Post-Apocalyptic" -- the Mad Max series, La Jetée, 12 Monkeys, that sort of thing.

D'oh.  That feeling when you think you're cunningly compensating for US state abbreviations being dropped in out of clear blue sky, and you're actually forgetting about the context from the previous line of the post...

[AlHazred]

2 hours ago, Alex said:

D'oh.  That feeling when you think you're cunningly compensating for US state abbreviations being dropped in out of clear blue sky, and you're actually forgetting about the context from the previous line of the post...

Well, with the release of Fallout 76, there's some crossover for Pennsylvania Post-Apocalyptic that would potentially work as a tone and look for a Glorantha game.

[soltakss]

On 9/30/2021 at 6:03 AM, RoadScholar said:

Hi there. First time poster. Be gentle.

H! We try to be.

On 9/30/2021 at 6:03 AM, RoadScholar said:

I'm considering a post-apocalyptic game set in Pavis/The Valley of Cradles. The setting opening would be the first days after the Gods die in the Second Lightbringer Quest. 

I want a PA style landscape, so I'm already assuming the world has changed and is less 'epic/mythic', with a general loss of magic, in all it's senses, across the world. Other planes, easy access to spirits and direct divine interactions are all harder or gone, in ways that are too boring/intricate to bewail in detail.

Pavis and Prax are pretty apocalyptic anyway, as they are the Wastelands produced when Genert's Garden was destroyed.

On 9/30/2021 at 6:03 AM, RoadScholar said:

I wanted to pick a few Gloranthaphiles minds about the trickiest of the questions this idea sets; namely, who is still around being all god-like?

King of Sartar, p233 "Argrath and the Devil".
So, Argrath then, and the Spider Spirit, and the other few which had survived, blessed the world and sent the good things which they had found out from their center and as gifts to the world of the living. And since that time, that world has been our world.

The bolding is my own. Pure conjecture, I know, but who are your candidates for the 'other few'? 

Argrath and his Trickster, maybe, although his Trickster could have been devoured.

We know that the trolls disappeared, so maybe all the troll deities were destroyed. It makes sense that all the Greater Deities and most of the Major Deities were destroyed, as they took part in the Ritual of the Net. 

So, those deities not powerful enough to have taken part in the Great Compromise are the ones to have possibly survived. So, local deities, city deities and so on.

As to individual deities, I don't have a clue.

 

[AndreJarosch]

7 minutes ago, soltakss said:

We know that the trolls disappeared, so maybe all the troll deities were destroyed.

We know that trolls are not longer around in Harshax realm, that doesn´t mean that they don´t exist anymore. 

[Eff]

25 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

We know that trolls are not longer around in Harshax realm, that doesn´t mean that they don´t exist anymore. 

Or, for that matter, the Elder Races could have transformed themselves into beings like the Kitori as part of the destruction and recreation of the world. Becoming outwardly human with a shadowy or arboreal or clockwork aura.

[Michael Cule]

I once asked Greg (at one of the Q&A sessions during one of the Leicester conventions) what the world of Glorantha was like after the end of the Gods War, in the time of the Harshaxi. 

He grinned and gestured out of the window to the alleged 'real world'.

 

[Alex]

7 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

We know that trolls are not longer around in Harshax realm, that doesn´t mean that they don´t exist anymore. 

"But the Moon Trolls are still there!  And now they're invisible!"

 

6 hours ago, Michael Cule said:

I once asked Greg (at one of the Q&A sessions during one of the Leicester conventions) what the world of Glorantha was like after the end of the Gods War, in the time of the Harshaxi. 

A notorious incident!

6 hours ago, Michael Cule said:

the alleged 'real world'.

Trust no-one.  And no-place.  *taps the walls of apartment suspiciously*

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, Michael Cule said:

He grinned and gestured out of the window to the alleged 'real world'.

As it says in WBRM: "Dragon Pass and the Red Moon have moved far from us now..." 

[AlHazred]

I have the definitive list of gods that still exist after the Disaster of the Net, right here:

1. Aeolus, god of storms (Griffin Island)
2. Ba'ath, Menetian goddess of the moon (Daughters of Darkness)
3. B’stard Gee’Em (Pavic Tales #9)
4. Bumi-Bijiran, Menetian goddess of farming and the earth (Daughters of Darkness)
5. Ciha, Menetian goddess of healing (Daughters of Darkness)
6. Crom Cruach, worm god of the night, a goblin god of death and destruction (White Dwarf #48)
7. Dianadhan (Fantasy Chronicles #4)
8. Diyzara (Fantasy Chronicles #4)
9. Dwarf God, god of dwarves (Griffin Island)
10. Elf Goddess, goddess of the elves (Griffin Island)
11. Enuk Manamee, fire god of the tundra nomads (Different Worlds #17)
12. Erlin the Harper, god of entertainers (Different Worlds #13)
13. Feng Po, subservient deity of the wind (City of Lei Tabor)
14. Freeman (Fantasy Chronicles #4)
15. Gestetner, god of dark duplication (Different Worlds #6)
16. Ghundhar (Fantasy Chronicles #4)
17. Grandmother Sky, great spirit of the Sky (Griffin Island)
18. The Green Man, Immaril great spirit of the wilderness (Eldarad: The Lost City)
19. Hilme, god of the sun (Griffin Island)
20. Indlas Somer, god of sun, sand, and surf (Different Worlds  #16)
21. Karnaga (Fantasy Chronicles #5)
22. Kashtzar (Fantasy Chronicles #5)
23. Kavaar (Fantasy Chronicles #5)
24. Kernu, goblin god of hunting and animal husbandry (White Dwarf #49)
25. Knerain, god of armorers (Adventurer #7)
26. Korob (Fantasy Chronicles #5)
27. Lei Kung, Duke of the Thunder Ministry, a powerful spirit warrior (City of Lei Tabor)
28. Loksan, Menetian trickster god (Daughters of Darkness)
29. Monkey God, outlaw god of baboons, chimpanzees, and great apes (QuestWorld: Greenwald Tales)
30. Mowta, Menetian god of the Underworld (Daughters of Darkness)
31. Neraka, Menetian goddess of the night (Daughters of Darkness)
32. Nerukata, Menetian god of the sun, King of the Gods (Daughters of Darkness)
33. Nik-El, goddess of luck and gambling (QuestWorld: Candlefire)
34. Ossegar (Fantasy Chronicles #5)
35. Panash, god of adventure and swashbucklers (QuestWorld: Candlefire)
36. Parang, Menetian god of war (Daughters of Darkness)
37. Ratar, dark spirit of the secrets of forbidden magic (Dragon #51)
38. Redeye, god of orcs (Griffin Island)
39. Satrom, Menetian god of storms (Daughters of Darkness)
40. Sensu, Menetian goddess of the sea, Queen of the Gods (Daughters of Darkness)
41. Shang Ti, Jade Emperor god of the Sky, patron god of Emperors and Smiths (City of Lei Tabor)
42. Slamfinger (QuestWorld)
43. Snake Brother, Immaril great spirit of serpents (Eldarad: The Lost City)
44. Taigaluk the Hunter, hunting god of the tundra nomads (Different Worlds #28)
45. Three Thieves Brotherhood, worship of of three heroic thieves of the past; Chu Wu, Ch'en Ta, and Yang Ch'un (City of Lei Tabor)
46. The Tiger, shapechanging cult, god of Tiger Sons (Different Worlds #9)
47. Vrang 2jhomang, god of metal workers and horseshoes (both the horse accessory and the game) (QuestWorld: Candlefire)
48. Ya Shih, subservient deity of the rain (City of Lei Tabor)
49. Yesan, Menetian god of famine (Daughters of Darkness)
50. Zelan the Beast, shapechanging cult, child of Storm Bull and Zelana Litor (Different Worlds #8)
51. Zutchko, benign dog spirit (Griffin Island)

All kidding aside, the idea of recycling some of the Gateway cults, cutting out (or at least paring down) some of the silliness, has some appeal.

Edited October 4, 2021 by AlHazred

[Alex]

2 minutes ago, AlHazred said:

I have the definitive list of gods that still exist after the Disaster of the Net, right here:

1. Aeolus, god of storms (Griffin Island)
2. Ba'ath, Menetian goddess of the moon (Daughters of Darkness)
3. B’stard Gee’Em (Pavic Tales #9)
4. [...]

o.O  Oh no!  It's the Ritual of the Reverse Canonisation!