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Just saw Dune


simonh

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Everything I could ever want in a Dune movie.

We watched it in Superscreen, which is a wide format laser projector with a high end sound system. I'd highly recommend seeing it on the best screen you have access to. This thing just begs for the full treatment. The deep love of the material from Villeneuve and Zimmer shows in every frame on screen and every second of the score.

If you don't know the book there's no way I can assess how well the film stands on it's own. It's just not possible for me to be objective.

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I think you and talked about this earlier.

I'm not that big a Dune fan, but I am glad you're happy. I only hope the LOTR Second Age series turns out to be as good... I have my doubts looking at some of the casting, but I might end up as thrilled as you appear to be.

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Some of the concept art for the Second Age series looks gorgeous. We can hope.

On TV shows, Villeneuve and one of his writing collaborators are involved in the production of a Dune prequel TV series. I've not read any of the prequel books, only the Frank Herbert stuff. We truly live in a golden age of geek cultural invasion of the mainstream.

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5 hours ago, simonh said:

We watched it in Superscreen, which is a wide format laser projector with a high end sound system. I'd highly recommend seeing it on the best screen you have access to. This thing just begs for the full treatment. The deep love of the material from Villeneuve and Zimmer shows in every frame on screen and every second of the score.

How was the loudness?  Zimmer's score has struck me as a little overwhelming at times.  A friend saw the premiere at the New York Film Festival and said it was sometimes so loud that the dialogue was inaudible.  But he added that the director was commenting on his pleasure with the sound system at Lincoln Center, and it's entirely possible that they cranked the volume to show off.

!i!

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It is very loud, that is true, but it's a fantastic score and soundscape generally. There were a few moments when it suffered from indistinct dialogue, but really only a few.

There was one decision I thought was a mistake, but it may have been deliberate as we're only seeing half of the story. One of the characters was shown displaying weakness at a time I would have showed them displaying strength. However it's quite possible this display of weakness at that time was a deliberate choice and will make more sense in the context of what we will see in Part 2.

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12 hours ago, simonh said:

Some of the concept art for the Second Age series looks gorgeous. We can hope.

On TV shows, Villeneuve and one of his writing collaborators are involved in the production of a Dune prequel TV series. I've not read any of the prequel books, only the Frank Herbert stuff. We truly live in a golden age of geek cultural invasion of the mainstream.

VERY true. We live in an era where we can fish for what we actually like rather than taping old re-runs of Twilight Zone.

I remember very well when Star Wars burst out on the world consciousness in 1976-77. The last big budget sci-fi films had been 2001 and a Bruce Dern movie, 'Silent Running' five years before. Sci-fi was relegated to comic book nerds, pseudo intellectuals, and DnD geeks still hiding in mom's basement. Then, all the sudden... BOOM!

As for the upcoming Middle Earth TV series.... OK, I'm gonna sound 'racist' again, but I really am not. Just hear me out.

As of today, IMDB lists 3 Black or mixed ancestry actors in the series. So let me ask you... where in LOTR do Blacks appear? It could be argued that the 'Mumakil' [an undescribed race of Men from south of Harad and Umbar who have tamed and ride oliphaunts] might be Black. But there are no Black elves and so few Men that if one appears JRRT would have commented on it.

I have no issue whatsoever with multi-cultural representation in films when the original writing calls for it. I don't mind when they have a multi-ethnic cast in works where ethnicity doesn't matter... The Witcher, for example. Saporowski wrote of nationalities and allegiences but not races in his novels, so including all sort of colors was appropriate. In Game of Thrones, they worked to cast actors that matched the cultural archetypes as GRRM described them. The Sands being 'dusky' for example. But LOTR's under-theme is about race and culture and it's not authentic to the JRRT's writing to get too multi-ethnic with the casting. It's similar to casting a Black lead actor in a 'Sharpe' movie.

This won't ruin the show for me, and Cynthia Addai-Robinson is a beautiful woman with a lot of talent. I liked her character in 'Chicago Med'. But these casting choices give me cause for concern. Peter Jackson's casting choices in the LOTR and Hobbit movies didn't raise any ire, so why are they doing it here?

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The Numenorians explored widely and traded with many foreign lands, after all it's an Atlantis analog. They did this for thousands of years. Their ships even glimpsed the "Gates of Morning" in the far east. Also the south is easy to reach from Numenor, it's actually much closer than the northern regions we're familiar with. You just sail directly east. When Numenor fell we know many of the survivors extensively colonised and populated Umbar in the south of Middle Earth. We know from the descriptions of men from the far south in the Return of the King that they had black skin. The Hobbits call them "swarthings" (facepalm). It seems reasonable Numenorian survivors settled there because they were familiar with it, or more likely survived because they were already there. I imagine Numenor would be pretty multicultural and would be extremely surprised not to see at least some black, or even asian characters there.

The Witcher makes very little sense on so many different axes that it would be a bit churlish to pick on it's treatment of race. The whole show is a big bag of "don't over think it and enjoy the ride".

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30 minutes ago, simonh said:

The Numenorians explored widely and traded with many foreign lands, after all it's an Atlantis analog. They did this for thousands of years. Their ships even glimpsed the "Gates of Morning" in the far east. Also the south is easy to reach from Numenor, it's actually much closer than the northern regions we're familiar with. You just sail directly east. When Numenor fell we know many of the survivors extensively colonised and populated Umbar in the south of Middle Earth. We know from the descriptions of men from the far south in the Return of the King that they had black skin. The Hobbits call them "swarthings" (facepalm). It seems reasonable Numenorian survivors settled there because they were familiar with it, or more likely survived because they were already there. I imagine Numenor would be pretty multicultural and would be extremely surprised not to see at least some black, or even asian characters there.

The Witcher makes very little sense on so many different axes that it would be a bit churlish to pick on it's treatment of race. The whole show is a big bag of "don't over think it and enjoy the ride".

In reading the Silmarillion, I would disagree that the Numenoreans were as 'multi-cultural' as you imply, certainly the nobles weren't. The Three Houses of Men were granted gifts above and beyond the gifts Illuvatar gave to mankind in general, and the Numenoreans well knew it. I can certainly see some of the Numenorean common folk marrying Lesser Men wherever their ship landed... sailors being sailors, after all. But given their interactions with the Noldor, Sindar, and Teleri Elves and their own interactions in Middle Earth during the Second Age, they were WELL aware of the idea of 'diluting the bloodline'.

You're right to point out that Middle Earth is a large continent and that many genotypes and ethnicites will exist on it, and that the Numenoreans would have encountered them, but let's not forget that a significant part of their exploration came during the 1500 years that they were an 'Imperial' power... they came to conquer and colonize, not teach and uplift. There is a reason why the Black Numenoreans and Corsairs of Umbar were as, well, evil as they were.

I guess what I'm saying is that LOTR is a property that I love as much as you love Dune and I rather wished the producers had stayed truer to the source material. Like I say, none of this will stop me from watching it. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product. And you're right, the mattes look great. I guess my stance is the same as it is with the upcoming Matrix reboot... 'interested but cautious'.

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11 minutes ago, svensson said:

In reading the Silmarillion, I would disagree that the Numenoreans were as 'multi-cultural' as you imply, certainly the nobles weren't. The Three Houses of Men were granted gifts above and beyond the gifts Illuvatar gave to mankind in general, and the Numenoreans well knew it. I can certainly see some of the Numenorean common folk marrying Lesser Men wherever their ship landed... sailors being sailors, after all. But given their interactions with the Noldor, Sindar, and Teleri Elves and their own interactions in Middle Earth during the Second Age, they were WELL aware of the idea of 'diluting the bloodline'.

That's all fair, I suppose it depends on who these characters are and how they fit into the narrative. It looks like it's going to be a big show.

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It was a very good movie to watch to such an extent that the issues I had with it were with the source material.  People who adapt it for the silver screen cut out the incoherent bits(1) and the silly bits(2) and congratulate themselves on doing a good job but what they should be doing is reworking the basic plot.  For example I find it difficult to believe one of the best armies in the Imperium can be caught sleeping by a surprise attack (which is really on par with Danerys has her Dragon shot down).  Nor could I understand why the Duke has to move to Arrakis with his entire household whereas the Baron was quite happy to live in Getty Premium and have Drax Harkonnen rule the place.  Then there is the problematic narrative of a white boy, full of nobility and grace, becomes Mahdi of the Fuzzie-Wuzzies etc with hardly any effort.  Many people on this forum could construct a more satisfyingly heroic journey.

Still I most applaud the movie for believable combats (rolls eyes at a prior adaptation which has one side not getting off a shot), characterization (Baron Harkonnen is beliably evil without being cartoonishly so) and the look oand feel of the Imperium (it's a shame that we never get to see the Highliner do a jump).

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10 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Then there is the problematic narrative of a white boy, full of nobility and grace, becomes Mahdi of the Fuzzie-Wuzzies etc with hardly any effort.  Many people on this forum could construct a more satisfyingly heroic journey.

Well, met, I got two things for you...

1] That how Herbert wrote it. You can hardly blame a production company for making a movie that's true[ish] to the source material. It's like having Geralt walk around as a Black dude with a white Afro. Yes, I'm conjuring a silly image, but it is *not* to trivialize your point. We both have seen movies that took the source material and made a complete hash of it. Every single 'Conan' movie for just one glaring example.

2] Herbert was a historian and knew about the German [sorry forgetting his name] who assisted abd el-Krim in the Rif War. He [the German] taught the Rif how to use captured artillery, taught them how to counter enemy artillery, convinced them to dismount and fire rifles on foot from ambush, and several other tactics suited to their strengths. He rose to be second only to el-Krim himself, and it wasn't until the French brought in aircraft that the Rif War came to a conclusion. Had the Rif succeeded, he would have would have the the 'Lawrence of North Africa'. Instead, the liberation of Algeria and Tunisia would have to wait till the 60's... and a FAR bloodier outcome.

What I mean to say by all that is that Muad-dib had solid historical precedent. First you have the example of Lawrence of Arabia, then the German, Orde Wingate helping the Jews of Palestine form the Palmach, even going down to today's US Special Forces Groups.

I totally understand your anti-colonial sentiments here, and I don't disagree with them, but I really do think there's less of Kipling's 'White Man's Burden' here than you suggest.

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The Atreides were simply overwhelmed. Its established that none of the noble houses can stand against the power of the Emperor individually, and they are caught between the Emperor and the Harkonens simultaneously. They're not even surprised, they fully expect an attack, it's just the scale of it that is a shock and that even the spacing guild would collude in their destruction.

“I wrote the Dune series because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: May be dangerous to your health." - Frank Herbert

Herbert consciously wrote Dune as a deconstruction and criticism of the white saviour trope, and a warning of the dangers and costs of saviour dynamics generally. Here's a guy that really gets this. Paul's triumphant jihad is a bloody catastrophe for humanity that breaks him. On hardly any effort, the Missionaria Protectiva put in hundreds of years of effort into laying the ground work for the coming of Paul, or someone like him. The BG plan is deep and long term. In Dune, religion is social manipulation elevated to an advanced art. He just co-opts it for his own purposes.

The enemy in Dune are not the Harkonens, they're just a warning of how bad the future could be, if they or someone like them comes to ultimate power. The real enemy is the ossified, hierarchical, oppressive structure of human society. It has become so rigid that some of the factions are speciating into different forms of life. Should that happen eventually the wrong people will come to power and we'd be trapped in eternal oppression, a boot stamping on a human face, forever.

So one danger is that this oppressive social structure is permanently ingrained into our DNA, and becomes a perpetual human condition. The other danger is that the cataclysmic conflict necessary to break this status quo also breaks civilisation, such that we lose the ability to fold space, and humanity is splintered into isolated planets that die out one by one. The Golden Path engineered by Leto II in the later books is the plan to navigate between these catastrophic failure modes to a truly open, unconstrained future for humanity.

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19 hours ago, svensson said:

Well, met, I got two things for you...

1] That how Herbert wrote it. You can hardly blame a production company for making a movie that's true[ish] to the source material. It's like having Geralt walk around as a Black dude with a white Afro. Yes, I'm conjuring a silly image, but it is *not* to trivialize your point. We both have seen movies that took the source material and made a complete hash of it. Every single 'Conan' movie for just one glaring example.

Stick to Dune please.  I'm not going to get sidetracked into arguments about how similar the Snake Tower ios to the Elephant Tower or the colour of Yennifyer's skin.  If your argument is that the company should stick to the novel no matter what, then p[resumably you want the Guild Navigators wearing mirrored contact lenses to hide their dependence on the spice, no?

19 hours ago, svensson said:

2] Herbert was a historian and knew about the German [sorry forgetting his name] who assisted abd el-Krim in the Rif War. He [the German] taught the Rif how to use captured artillery, taught them how to counter enemy artillery, convinced them to dismount and fire rifles on foot from ambush, and several other tactics suited to their strengths. He rose to be second only to el-Krim himself, and it wasn't until the French brought in aircraft that the Rif War came to a conclusion. Had the Rif succeeded, he would have would have the the 'Lawrence of North Africa'. Instead, the liberation of Algeria and Tunisia would have to wait till the 60's... and a FAR bloodier outcome.

Herbert was a journalist not a historian.  As for historical parallel, your German provide himself to his alliesby teaching them how to use captured artillery etc.  Paul in the novel does not do these things (okay there is the wierding modules in the Lynch Film but that's an innovation of the sort you think the filmmakers should not do).  He passes a few odd tests to convince people he's the Chosen One and they follow him.  Hopefully the second film will rectify this omission but it's something I found annoying with the novel. 

 

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2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Stick to Dune please.  I'm not going to get sidetracked into arguments about how similar the Snake Tower ios to the Elephant Tower or the colour of Yennifyer's skin.  If your argument is that the company should stick to the novel no matter what, then p[resumably you want the Guild Navigators wearing mirrored contact lenses to hide their dependence on the spice, no?

Herbert was a journalist not a historian.  As for historical parallel, your German provide himself to his alliesby teaching them how to use captured artillery etc.  Paul in the novel does not do these things (okay there is the wierding modules in the Lynch Film but that's an innovation of the sort you think the filmmakers should not do).  He passes a few odd tests to convince people he's the Chosen One and they follow him.  Hopefully the second film will rectify this omission but it's something I found annoying with the novel.

I was sticking to Dune. My mention of Conan was an example of How To Do It Very Badly Over And Over Again. See also, Sting in his combat diaper.

Do I think that a studio should read, understand and abide by what the creator of the IP they're producing said when he wrote it? Yes, as a matter of fact I do. It's worked successfully in any number of movies and series. Does that include character descriptions? Yes, it does.

Paul 'Muad'dib' Atreides was a leader for the fremen, he united the tribes and led them from the front. In his case there was a 'reverse assimilation' [THEY taught HIM how to fight in the desert] but that in no way dilutes Atreides' contribution to their victory, hollow that it was.

Simon's point is also well taken. In the end the Fremen Rebellion was utterly futile and leads to a series of defeats for Humankind in later books. Now, I have not read Children and later volumes. I had a hard enough time getting through the first book. But I DID check the Dune wiki about SImon's statement and he's spot on. So this counters the Great White Savior issue you're expressing.

Last thing, in regards to Herbert being a historian... There is an adage in the history profession: "The news is just history in rough draft". Most journalists who actually cover events [rather than, say, celebrity news or a sports beat] are sources for incredible details about historical events that never make the history books. Oftentimes, reporters provide the only record of some important facet of a major event. This is why historians rely on journalism and diarists to get a fuller picture of events.

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12 hours ago, simonh said:

The Atreides were simply overwhelmed.

The Atreides were surprised, not overwhelmed, in the books and both films.  To bring out this point:

The British were overwhelmed by the Zulus at Isandlwana.  They knew there were Zulus and had prepared for battle but their ammo supply seized at a critical moment and so they lost.

The French were suprised by the Germans at Ardennes.  They wer fighting Germans but had no idea that the Germans could make it to where they did.  Their morale plummeted like a stone and they lost the war.

See the difference?  I can accept iverwhelming but that's not what is depicted in the novels and the films.  It's even more mind-boggling when we are told that the Atreides have one of the best armies and that there have been known problems with Harkonnen saboteurs (the hunter-killer incident).  Yet we are supposed to believe that why the army slept, a single doctor without military training develops ninjujitsu skills and brings down the sentries, the shields and the communications?  Not buying it

 

I

12 hours ago, simonh said:

Herbert consciously wrote Dune as a deconstruction and criticism of the white saviour trope, and a warning of the dangers and costs of saviour dynamics generally.

Frank Herbet may have believed such a thing but the novel does not bear that out.  We are only told once (in a sequel) where in the "Did Hitler use a Lasgun?" conversation, Paul recounts the destruction that has occurred off-screen.  We are merely told about it, have not seen it.  Even worse, the awareness that Paul exhibits is quickly forgotten and does not come up again in any shape or form (as too the destruction).

12 hours ago, simonh said:

The Golden Path engineered by Leto II in the later books is the plan to navigate between these catastrophic failure modes to a truly open, unconstrained future for humanity.

The later books was Frank realizing that he didn't need to make sense as his readers would do it for him.

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4 minutes ago, svensson said:

I was sticking to Dune. My mention of Conan was an example of How To Do It Very Badly Over And Over Again. See also, Sting in his combat diaper.

You mentioned Conan and Geralt of Riveria.  That's not sticking to Dune by my measure.  And FWIW I quite like Conan the Barbarian.  

4 minutes ago, svensson said:

Paul 'Muad'dib' Atreides was a leader for the fremen, he united the tribes and led them from the front. In his case there was a 'reverse assimilation' [THEY taught HIM how to fight in the desert] but that in no way dilutes Atreides' contribution to their victory, hollow that it was.

He has the leadership practically gifted to him in the books doing nothing but passaing a few vague tests and killing someone in a knifefight.  He doesn't do anything *for* the Fremen to make him become their leader.

4 minutes ago, svensson said:

Simon's point is also well taken. In the end the Fremen Rebellion was utterly futile and leads to a series of defeats for Humankind in later books. Now, I have not read Children and later volumes.

If you have not read Children and Dune and byond then how do you know the Fremen Rebellion was utterly futile?  I myself struggled through Heretics of Dune (or perhaps it was Chapter House?  It was one one where somebody's blood turns black after he does a bullet-time fight), can't recall this alleged futility myself.

 

4 minutes ago, svensson said:

Last thing, in regards to Herbert being a historian...

So he wasn't a historian.  Thank you for admitting that.

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I concede the point on the Atreides getting caught flat footed, you're right, it doesn't make sense that a doctor could bring the whole defence system down like that.

Paul is acutely aware in the first book of the mass destruction he is about to unleash. He considers it while riding his first sandworm, and before his duel with Feyd. The cost of the Jihad presses down on his conscience throughout the latter parts of the book.

But in any case, the criticism of messiahship is inherent in the fact that the ascent of the messiah is plotted and engineered long before he's even born. The whole thing is a BG manipulation he cynically exploits. Contrast with regular white messiah stories like Tarzan, The Last Sammurai or Avatar where whitey learns the native's culture better than they themselves, and wins due to his innate greatness. Paul's greatness is bred into him by the BG, and he understands Fremen culture so well because he was given the handbook on it by the people that manipulated it into existence in the first place. It's a sham from start to finish.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The Atreides were both surprised and overwhelmed.

They knew an attack was coming. 

  1. The big surprise was the scale, which overwhelmed them.  Thufir had predicted 1 legion (30,000 troops), but the Barron landed 10.  The Barron stated it took 60 years income from Dune to pay the Guild shipping costs at hazard rates.
  2. The second was the involvement of the Sardaukar (2 legions).  The appendix states that they were each the equivalent of 10 normal troops, but it is unclear if that was at their peak, or the time of the assault.
  3. Finally, there was Yueh brining down the shield around the HQ.  Suk conditioning was believed to be unbreakable, so he would have had the highest security clearance.  That make the assault easier, but with such numbers, it is hard to see then loosing even without this.

So up to 30 times the expected force, plus treachery.

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On 11/7/2021 at 11:49 PM, Dominic said:
  1. Finally, there was Yueh brining down the shield around the HQ.  Suk conditioning was believed to be unbreakable, so he would have had the highest security clearance.  That make the assault easier, but with such numbers, it is hard to see then loosing even without this.

So up to 30 times the expected force, plus treachery.

I suspect that Yueh's taking down the shield round HQ probably didn't have a decisive military effect, but enabled a commando strike that made it impossible for the duke and his family to escape.

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26 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

What surprised me the most about the movie was how similar the plot was to Game of Thrones. I guess G.R.R. Martin was a big Herbert fan!

Both read widely, and GRRM has certainly acknowledged that his inspiration was the War of the Roses in Britain.  I have no idea whether the same is true for Herbert.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 10/22/2021 at 2:35 AM, simonh said:

Everything I could ever want in a Dune movie.

 

Took a while but, yeah, this is as good as that stellar British miniseries of Children of Dune from a few years back. Definitely gets the horror of Patrick Steward playing Gurney and Sting, no, I can’t say it... the horror, the horror!

On 10/22/2021 at 4:58 AM, simonh said:

I've not read any of the prequel books, only the Frank Herbert stuff.

Alas, Brian did not get the writing gene!

On 10/24/2021 at 1:35 AM, metcalph said:

For example I find it difficult to believe one of the best armies in the Imperium can be caught sleeping by a surprise attack

This is a result of both the Guild Monopoly and the remains of Imperial Power. The Guild Monopoly was so complete that with enough cash, 3 (?) divisions of Sardaukar could be secreted away on Guild Transports. Now arguments could be made as to whether the House Atreides armies or the Sardaukar were the better but a surprise attack of three divisions did indeed tell the tale. The surprise was not that the Emperor would be involved but that there would be the wherewithal for 3 divisions. The cost of this was to beggar the Harkonnen's coffers for quite some time, meaning the unleashing of Beast Rabban was an economic necessity after the removal of House Atreides. Throw in a fair amount of betrayal, wringing of hands and of standing by and down goes the Duke. 

On 10/24/2021 at 10:14 PM, metcalph said:

The Atreides were surprised, not overwhelmed, in the books and both films.  To bring out this point:

 

This sounds fair, but add in otherwise insignificant incidents and mix them in with the surprise... I believe there was enough there for me to suspend any disbelief.

On 10/24/2021 at 10:14 PM, metcalph said:

See the difference?  I can accept iverwhelming but that's not what is depicted in the novels and the films.  It's even more mind-boggling when we are told that the Atreides have one of the best armies and that there have been known problems with Harkonnen saboteurs (the hunter-killer incident).  Yet we are supposed to believe that why the army slept, a single doctor without military training develops ninjujitsu skills and brings down the sentries, the shields and the communications?  Not buying it

 

True, I add in the indifference of the other Great Houses, CHOAM, the actual attack of the Bene Geseret, the Imperium and the Harkonnen, the manipulations of the Ixians, as more weight to bring down the Atreides.

On 10/24/2021 at 10:14 PM, metcalph said:
On 10/24/2021 at 9:42 AM, simonh said:

Herbert consciously wrote Dune as a deconstruction and criticism of the white saviour trope, and a warning of the dangers and costs of saviour dynamics generally.

Frank Herbet may have believed such a thing but the novel does not bear that out.  We are only told once (in a sequel) where in the "Did Hitler use a Lasgun?" conversation, Paul recounts the destruction that has occurred off-screen.  We are merely told about it, have not seen it.  Even worse, the awareness that Paul exhibits is quickly forgotten and does not come up again in any shape or form (as too the destruction).

Interesting, I thought it started as an ecological treatise.. Yep found it...
https://niche-canada.org/2020/04/24/frank-herberts-ecology-and-the-science-of-soil-conservation/

On 10/24/2021 at 10:23 PM, metcalph said:

He has the leadership practically gifted to him in the books doing nothing but passaing a few vague tests and killing someone in a knifefight.  He doesn't do anything *for* the Fremen to make him become their leader.

On 10/24/2021 at 10:10 PM, svensson said:

Yes, the Bene Geseret had laid the foundation of myths (HeroQuesting) for 100s of years before the book. Paul was a/ taught this my mom b/ got this intuitively once he got the “memories”.

On 10/25/2021 at 2:47 AM, simonh said:

I concede the point on the Atreides getting caught flat footed, you're right, it doesn't make sense that a doctor could bring the whole defence system down like that.

 

No, but add in all the other weight... well, works for me anyway. 

On 10/25/2021 at 2:47 AM, simonh said:

But in any case, the criticism of messiahship is inherent in the fact that the ascent of the messiah is plotted and engineered long before he's even born. The whole thing is a BG manipulation he cynically exploits.

Agreed

On 10/25/2021 at 2:47 AM, simonh said:

Contrast with regular white messiah stories like Tarzan, The Last Sammurai or Avatar where whitey learns the native's culture better than they themselves, and wins due to his innate greatness. Paul's greatness is bred into him by the BG, and he understands Fremen culture so well because he was given the handbook on it by the people that manipulated it into existence in the first place. It's a sham from start to finish.

Nice insight, did not see it at first dozen blushes but I do now, good call!

On 11/7/2021 at 4:49 PM, Dominic said:
  • The big surprise was the scale, which overwhelmed them.  Thufir had predicted 1 legion (30,000 troops), but the Barron landed 10.  The Barron stated it took 60 years income from Dune to pay the Guild shipping costs at hazard rates.
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Thanks, those numbers look better.

 

 

Edited by Bill the barbarian
  • Like 2

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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