The question of castles

[Oleksandr]

(first of all, i nead to warn that english isn't my first language,  i'm sorry you had to suffer my grammar 😅 .I also mast admit that i never actually played TTRPG (none of my circle of friends are TT player 😔 ), this is just curiosity of mine, especially world building aspect.. So, sorry if my cuestion would sound overly naive)                                            

  Anyway.I looked thru several sets of rules for fortification building from older editions, and noticed some inconsistencies with examples of castles given in both old and new books. For example, all versions of rules stated that it imposibble to build keep on motte. Yet, in some cases (including example attached to this very rules!🤨) keep of a castle are explicitly  build on motte. I also noticed some elements of fortifications (Small and Grand keeps, great towers of various configurations, tall turrets, stone lined ditches/ramparts, motte reveted with stone, rock hewn ditches...) and geographic features it can be build on (like steep hills and river loops) that wasn't in any of this rooles. This rules will be updated in the future, right?

P.C. I also noticed that in list of castles from Book of the warlords apparently defence values of Lambor and Lair's castles got mixed, in both Uther and Anarchy period:

                                                                                                                  

Новый рисунок.bmp

Edited October 26, 2021 by Oleksandr

[Morien]

Welcome to the forum!

As for the questions, the general rule of thumb is that the newest rules supersede the older ones. Hence, for fortifications, BotEstate (and BotWarlord) are what you should look at. While I can find a comment of no keeps on mottes in Lordly Domains (which is a 4th edition KAP supplement), I cannot find it for the Estate (Estate and Warlord are for KAP 5.x). Also, there is a distinction between a Keep (a big stone structure) and a keep/stronghold in BotW (i.e. any last-ditch defense structure, usually a Hall, a Tower or a Keep). You can easily build a wooden tower on top of a Motte, which is what the example of the Fortified Motte has done in BotE, and the Fortified/Large Wooden Halls in BotW. So this would not be a contradiction as such.

I do think that based on the map of the Sentinel Ridge, the Hall should be in the Bailey, and a Wooden Tower on top of the actual Motte. Same with the Castle of the Pinnacle, which leads me to suspect that there is a pattern here and they all should bump the Hall to the Bailey and add a Tower on top of the Motte instead.

Also, we have some historical evidence of big stone towers/shell keeps being built on large mottes, such as Cardiff Castle and the round tower at Windsor Castle, so it is very possible that once the Book of the Castle comes out under whatever name, we might have Mottes with actual stone Keeps on them.

As for the Lambor Castle and Leir's Castle... I think you are right, although I am now a bit suspicious about the Boy King Period, too. As in, the Leir's Castle says that the fortifications have been upgraded, but instead it looks like that it is the Lambor Castle write-up from earlier, but without the fortified motte.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Morien

[Oleksandr]

On 10/22/2021 at 7:33 PM, Morien said:

As for the Lambor Castle and Leir's Castle... I think you are right, although I am now a bit suspicious about the Boy King Period, too. As in, the Leir's Castle says that the fortifications have been upgraded, but instead it looks like that it is the Lambor Castle write-up from earlier, but without the fortified motte.

 

There was also some other minor mistakes, where description and DV don't much up. This was just most noticeable one. BTW, i understand correctly that some of the people on this forum worked/working on this books?

One other thing i also noticed, in older rules geographic features provided defence bonus for every layer of defence, while in BotW - only for outermost... That's significant reduction

🤨

On 10/22/2021 at 7:33 PM, Morien said:

I do think that based on the map of the Sentinel Ridge, the Hall should be in the Bailey, and a Wooden Tower on top of the actual Motte. Same with the Castle of the Pinnacle, which leads me to suspect that there is a pattern here and they all should bump the Hall to the Bailey and add a Tower on top of the Motte instead.

 That's interesting question. Considering that BotEstate give DV for different types of Halls, it implied that it supposed to be stronghold... In examples from BotW some castles has stronghold dv 3 instead of 2, which implies that it isn't just tower. And at least one example hall was explicitly separated from stronghold/keep...

Realistically, it more convenient to have (unfortified) hall in the bailey, but, if i remember correctly (can't check right now) Oakeshott in his "knight and his castle" described french wooden castle that consisted of one large, two storey building on top of motte, based on contemporary chronicle. And later shale keeps also had hall and dwellings in it, again on top of motte. I think it's entirely possible for some lords to build their hall or at least bedchambers on the motte…

[Morien]

3 hours ago, Oleksandr said:

That's interesting question. Considering that BotEstate give DV for different types of Halls, it implied that it supposed to be stronghold... In examples from BotW some castles has stronghold dv 3 instead of 2, which implies that it isn't just tower. And at least one example hall was explicitly separated from stronghold/keep...

Just to clarify, when I said 'all', I meant the example major caputs with their castles given in BotW, not all the castles in the Appendix of BotW. Both of the examples for which we have maps in BotW show the Hall clearly in the (Upper/Inner) Bailey, with just a Tower on top of the Motte itself. Hence my comment.

3 hours ago, Oleksandr said:

Realistically, it more convenient to have (unfortified) hall in the bailey, but, if i remember correctly (can't check right now) Oakeshott in his "knight and his castle" described french wooden castle that consisted of one large, two storey building on top of motte, based on contemporary chronicle. And later shale keeps also had hall and dwellings in it, again on top of motte. I think it's entirely possible for some lords to build their hall or at least bedchambers on the motte…

Yep, totally happened historically.

3 hours ago, Oleksandr said:

One other thing i also noticed, in older rules geographic features provided defence bonus for every layer of defence, while in BotW - only for outermost... That's significant reduction

Makes sense, though. If the enemy has overcome the hill and the outer defenses and is now fighting in the inner courtyard on flat terrain, why should they get the penalty for the hill anymore? Now, if we are talking about significant further elevation (like the Motte), then there should be (and is, again in the example of a Motte) defensive bonus.

3 hours ago, Oleksandr said:

There was also some other minor mistakes, where description and DV don't much up. This was just most noticeable one. BTW, i understand correctly that some of the people on this forum worked/working on this books?

Yeah, there are some of us here, who worked with Greg on different parts.

[Oleksandr]

19 hours ago, Morien said:

Makes sense, though. If the enemy has overcome the hill and the outer defenses and is now fighting in the inner courtyard on flat terrain, why should they get the penalty for the hill anymore?

Well, i would argue that it would be somewhat harder to bring in reinforcements, additional arrows, pavises, ladders and all to  hill top. Similarly, while on flat ground, you can bring ston trowers closer and bombard motte, while if it's on the hill it would be less effective. Same if castle built on island, and if it on peninsula you can't surround it with siege engines. However, such a difference maybe to small to be noticeable in gameplay.

Returning to BotW, there also plenty of earthwork enclosure type castles (historians usually use term "ringwork") with no additional bailey, which many ringworks had historically (sometimes several). Similarly, some castles had just big motte, with no bailey. Castle building was rather unsystematic 😁

19 hours ago, Morien said:

Yeah, there are some of us here, who worked with Greg on different parts.

 Is there some probability that suggestions posted here will reach developers?

[fulk]

Hi Oleksandr, 

I "built" most of those castles (seems like ages ago at this point). Most of them are based on whatever information I could find online or in books. So, the number of rings is the number of rings for which I found evidence.  The same goes for the size of the enclosures. A lot of them I measured on google maps or took from document sources.  Some I just made up when I couldn't find information or if the information was vague.  At this point, I don't remember the specifics on individual castles. 

RE DVs: There are also some changes in the way DVs are calculated. Some features no longer affect DV but instead reduce the effective perimeter of the castle. This change affects how much siege equipment and troops are needed to assault or defend the castle. Obviously, a smaller perimeter benefits the defender. 

RE keeps on mottes. Shell keeps can certainly go on mottes. Otherwise, it wasn't a common practice from what I can tell. Within the Pendragon (all editions) and the real world, there are  there are occasional exceptions, which Greg just explained to me as "unique". So you will occasionally see a stone castle before they are actually available to everyone. 

RE strongholds.  On top of the motte, the stronghold is usually a wooden tower.  In other areas, most of the DV2 or DV3 are halls (wood or stone). A stronghold can really be any structure with DV that is designated as such. There is probably some inconsistency in noting halls as the stronghold unless the hall is the only real stronghold. I remember talking with Greg about it. Basically, every castle has a hall, but it usually isn't a stronghold and not DV'd as such.  In some cases they might be. 

I am a bit proponent of "it is an in-person" rpg, not a computer game.  So the GM can certainly make some decisions about how hard it is to get siege equipment into the bailey. However, the rules don't go into that level of detail. 

Both the Nobles Book and Lordly Domains have more detailed castle building rules than Warlords or Estate. They are similar to but not exactly the same as the rules used to build the castles in Warlords.

 

[Oleksandr]

Thanks you for the answer👍

I also wanted to clarify something.

1) In BotEs, in rules for halls, it said that tile/lead roof provide +1/2 DV. It's mean that tile one provide +1 and lead - +2? or that eigter one provide half DV? (sorry if question sound stupid 🥴). I also curious why roof provide such bonus... 

2) Is "great tower"=keep, or it's completely different things?

3) There was rule that half curtain wall can be cheaply upgraded into normal one. It's interesting, what about other similar upgrades? Can rock wall be starting point for half curtain wall, and large stone hall - for keep?

[Morien]

13 minutes ago, Oleksandr said:

Thanks you for the answer👍

I also wanted to clarify something.

1) In BotEs, in rules for halls, it said that tile/lead roof provide +1/2 DV. It's mean that tile one provide +1 and lead - +2? or that eigter one provide half DV? (sorry if question sound stupid 🥴). I also curious why roof provide such bonus... 

Fireproof, I'd assume, as well as less likely to let missiles in through the thatch. The cost and the Glory columns show the same format, so it would be +1 DV for tiles and +2 DV for lead roof.

13 minutes ago, Oleksandr said:

2) Is "great tower"=keep, or it's completely different things?

Where do you see a "great tower"? I could not see it in Lordly Domains nor in BotE.

In Lordly Domains, a Keep is usually "an oversized tower". But as it is explained in Lordly Domains, you can have the Keep acting as one of the towers, too, connected to the curtain wall. I think this would be common especially with the smaller castles, while the larger castles, especially once they become concentric, would have a separate Keep.

13 minutes ago, Oleksandr said:

3) There was rule that half curtain wall can be cheaply upgraded into normal one. It's interesting, what about other similar upgrades? Can rock wall be starting point for half curtain wall, and large stone hall - for keep?

YPMV (and I am not Fulk), but I'd say no, since the 'half curtain wall' (in Lordly Domains) is the bottom (thick part), and you are simply building the rest on top of that (although it should cost at least £5 to upgrade or it would be cheaper to build it and then upgrade than just build a full curtain wall). However, the large stone hall is a different construction than the Keep (thickness of walls, etc).

I might allow the Hall to act as a half-price base for the Keep, i.e. interior structure is kept and the roof materials being reused, but not at the full price. I'd likely treat the rock wall the same way: half-price when upgrading to the curtain wall, as you still need to reinforce it and so forth.

[fulk]

I'd be inclined to say no to the stone hall as the bottom half of the keep. A multi storied keep would require more foundational work and support than a wall that is built to be the bottom of the wall. YMMV of course. You could certainly give a discount and say that the original hall was destroyed but parts reused, saving on material costs. But I would not think of it half of the larger structure. 

 

I wouldn't sweat the rules to closely. Just do what works in your campaign.

 NT

[Oleksandr]

16 hours ago, Morien said:

Where do you see a "great tower"? I could not see it in Lordly Domains nor in BotE.

From BotW, "Castles of the Early Phase" :

Spoiler

Loud Stream - square great tower;

Silchester Castle - stone great tower;

Sparrows - Four-story stone great tower with corner towers;

Corinium Castle - great tower;

Dangerous Ford - cylindrical great tower;

Llud’s Hall - great tower of stone;

Pass, Castle of the - stone great tower;

Roaring Stream - three-story rectangular great tower;

Wolfnest Castle - square great tower (and separate great hall);

Wychwood - Great tower;

Bull’s Slope - Great tower;

Red Tower - 3-story great tower;

Weirstream - great tower;

Same list use term "keep" too.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Oleksandr

[Oleksandr]

16 hours ago, Morien said:

you can have the Keep acting as one of the towers, too, connected to the curtain wall. I think this would be common especially with the smaller castles, while the larger castles, especially once they become concentric, would have a separate Keep.

This also rise another question. If keep of small castle protrude enough, people on it can fire at enemies assaulting gate. There are couple of such examples in RL. Could it count as sorta concentric castle (especially if geography limit approach to it)?😎

[Morien]

1 hour ago, Oleksandr said:

From BotW, "Castles of the Early Phase" :

OK, found it. I didn't think to look there. 🙂

I'd say most of the 'stone great towers' might qualify as Lordly Domain Keeps. Again, I am not fulk, so I am not sure of the exact terminology, if there is a distinction between a stone great tower and a stone keep. Colchester's castle (Castle of the Sparrows) would definitely qualify as a Keep (not a 'mere' tower) in my opinion as it has its own corner towers, as does the White Tower of London. On the other hand, the appendix also has Corinium/Cirencester Castle, which has a 'great tower' on a motte, but the DV is just 2. This, to me, implies that this is probably just a wooden tower, or that there is a typo in the DV.

50 minutes ago, Oleksandr said:

This also rise another question. If keep of small castle protrude enough, people on it can fire at enemies assaulting gate. There are couple of such examples in RL. Could it count as sorta concentric castle (especially if geography limit approach to it)?😎

If the Keep protrudes enough from the walls, then the Keep adds its DV to the wall defenses, like a tower would, IMHO. If the Keep is inside the walls, but the castle is really small, then I would use the same justification as the motte+tower to let it be 'concentric', adding the DV to the walls. Use your own judgement.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Morien

[fulk]

Yes. Those are Greg's shortened descriptions.  They don't necessarily used the 'official' terms. I understand that is a bit confusing. 

 If the DV for the stronghold is 10, it is probably effectively a square keep. For example, the 'official' write up for Silchester Castle (from above in the thread) is:

DV: 16 / 6 / 10

Outworks DR2 (DV 16): 99 acres, 7362 ft perimeter; Double ditch (3), 6 Gates (-1.6), Postern gate (-0.1), Roman walls (7), 6 Roman gate houses (8.1); ( I think this is the whole town if I remember).

Bailey DR1 (DV 6): 2 acres, 1046 ft perimeter; Ditch (2), Gate (-2), Gate works (1), Roman walls & palisade (5); (Castle proper)

Stronghold DR0 (DV 10): Square keep (10)

DR = defense ring

DV = defense value

The newer (from BoEstates on, I think) write-ups use perimeter and not area.

Note, that the DVs here are also calculated differently for things like towers.  They are 'prorated' for the perimeter of the fortification, which is why 6 gate houses only have a DV of 8.  This really only matters for large castles and towns. "Standard Castles" of 2-3 acres don't need any modifications. 

I think that the original decision was to include Greg's short description in the BoWarlords for space reasons and provide the specific details in another form at some point in the future. I don't know what the current plans are.

I don't remember whether that above build 'historically accurate' or a Phase thing Greg wanted. The areas are probably based on either google maps or some description from a document or website.

 

The Gatehouse   http://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/home.html is a handy site for castle descriptions.

F

[fulk]

Also - a description of the 'tower' on the motte from a wooden castle:

 

The wooden donjon of Arnold, Lord of Ardres

“It was designed and built by a carpenter from Bourbourg called Louis, who fell little short of Daedalus in his skill; for he created an almost impenetrable labyrinth, piling storeroom upon storeroom, chamber upon chamber, room upon room, extending the larders and grainaries into the cellars, and building the chapel in a convenient place overlooking all else from high up on the eastern side. He made it of three floors, the topmost storey supported by the second as though suspended in the air.

The first storey was at ground level, and here were the cellars and grainaries, the great chests, cask, butts and other domestic utensils.

On the second floor were the residential apartments and common living quarters, and there were the larders, the rooms of the bakers and the butlers, and the great chamber of the lord and his lady, where they slept, on to which adjoined a small room which provided the sleeping quarters of the maidservants and children. Here in the inner part of the great chambers there was a small private room where at early dawn or in the evening, or in sickness, or for warming the maids and weaned children, they used to light a fire. On this floor also was the kitchen, which was on two levels.

On the lower level pigs were fattened, geese tended, chickens and other fowls killed and prepared. On the upper level the cooks and stewards worked and prepared the delicate dishes for the lords, which entailed much hard work on the part of the cooks, and here also the meals for the household and servants were prepared each day.

 On the top floor of the house there were small rooms, in which, on one side, the sons of the lord slept when they wished to do so, and, on the other side, his daughters as they were obliged. There too the watchmen, the servants appointed to keep the household, and the ever-ready guards, took their sleep when they could. There were stairs and corridors from floor to floor, from the residential quarters to the kitchen, from chamber to chamber, and from the main building to the loggia, where they used to sit for conversation and recreations.”

—Lambert of Ardre, Historia comitum Ghisnensium

[Oleksandr]

On 10/26/2021 at 8:25 PM, fulk said:

I "built" most of those castles

May i also ask about this additional features i mentioned in first post? (most appeared in BotW) Was there plans to update castle building rules at the time?

[fulk]

Most versions of castle building rules include a generic "fine points". You can use fine points to add any of the minor additions (like turrets etc) to a castle.  

Geographic features are also in the rules but function a bit differently.  

I have been a bit out of the loop for a while, so I'm not sure of the present plans beyond the general announcements.

[Oleksandr]

On 10/25/2021 at 10:13 PM, Morien said:

Makes sense, though. If the enemy has overcome the hill and the outer defenses and is now fighting in the inner courtyard on flat terrain, why should they get the penalty for the hill anymore? Now, if we are talking about significant further elevation (like the Motte), then there should be (and is, again in the example of a Motte) defensive bonus.

I thought about this point for a while, and it seems that there could be a lot of possibilities for this bonuses. For example, if castle are built on island or peninsula, then stronghold (or inner ward AND stronghold) can be on the river edge, receiving it's (smaller) bonus. In fact, if castle/city build on the coast or clif edge, if properly positioned, inner defences still will be on same coast/edge.😉

P.s. BTW, look at this fortress (or, what left of it...) :

While whole fortress is on the hill, each subsequent layer of defence is on the rise relative to the previous. And there is cliff on the other side. Cool, isn't it?😎

 

[Morien]

Yes, that would be the significant elevation where I would be inclined to give the hill bonus for the inner layer as well.

But for example Chateau Gaillard has outer bailey, inner bailey and a shell keep, all roughly on the same level, and actually downslope from another hill (the approach). Sure, there is a cliff towards Seine on the other side, but you wouldn't be able to attack that side anyway. My point is, I would not give Chateau Gaillard any hill bonuses at any point. Instead, I would do what fulk suggests and limit the circumference that you need to fortify and to man.

[fulk]

Yes. I would give that one hill/rise bonuses for each ring and reduce the effective perimeter as well.  

 

[Oleksandr]

16 hours ago, fulk said:

Yes. I would give that one hill/rise bonuses for each ring and reduce the effective perimeter as well.  

Wouldn't top tower count as being on the crag? BTW, i noticed that Crags/ridges in BotW give +10 DV, it was +25 in NB...

I also noticed that "Castle of the Pass" (BotW) are on "steep hill", which, it seems, provide +6 instead of +5 of "simple" hill...

[fulk]

These are the specifics. Note these are not the same rules as in Nobles Book or Lordly Domains. The DVs are calculated differently. 

DV: 11/5/13/3

Outworks DR3 (DV 11): 2 acres, 1252 ft perimeter; Hill top (5); Ditch & rampart (3), Palisade (3), Gate (-2), Wooden gate tower (2);

Bailey DR2 (DV 5): 0.5 acres, 626 ft perimeter; Ditch & rampart (3), Palisade (3), Gate (-2), Gate works (1);

Motte DR1 (DV 13): 0.5 acres, 626 ft perimeter; Motte, double (6), Curtain wall (7), Postern gate (-1), Gate works (1);

Stronghold DR0 (DV 3): Large stone hall (3)

[Oleksandr]

On 11/17/2021 at 12:46 AM, fulk said:

DV: 11/5/13/3

Outworks DR3 (DV 11): 2 acres, 1252 ft perimeter; Hill top (5); Ditch & rampart (3), Palisade (3), Gate (-2), Wooden gate tower (2);

Bailey DR2 (DV 5): 0.5 acres, 626 ft perimeter; Ditch & rampart (3), Palisade (3), Gate (-2), Gate works (1);

Motte DR1 (DV 13): 0.5 acres, 626 ft perimeter; Motte, double (6), Curtain wall (7), Postern gate (-1), Gate works (1);

Stronghold DR0 (DV 3): Large stone hall (3)

So, as i understand, you have full description of all this castles?

[fulk]

Yes. I "constructed" all of the castles for BoW. 

[Oleksandr]

On 11/26/2021 at 5:10 PM, fulk said:

Yes. I "constructed" all of the castles for BoW. 

So, could you publish it here?😊 (at least more unusual/interesting ones)

[fulk]

I don't think I can do that legally.  I'm not sure what the current plans are for that information.