Sartar Rising and RQ

[Alex]

40 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Gotta Worship 'Em All!

I wanted to complain how "recent" that was in comparison to the intended reference...

... and yet, it was first published a quarter of a century ago.  😱

[David Scott]

23 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

it seems I missed something... "Urox", "uroxi" aren't a name of storm bull(er) any more ?

I'd include it in a list of deprecated terms, mostly from the Hero Wars era, and not generally used in Glorantha publications after 2008 (perhaps earlier), and not present in RQG. Like Gern, last seen in Anaxial's Roster in 2000.

[David Scott]

22 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I don't believe this is correct. Ur/ürr/úrr/ūro/*ūraz is just the name for the animal - it has nothing to do with it being "primal" or anything even though it sounds like that in some languages (including Swedish).

Although clearly a borrow word, in English, ur- means proto, primative, earliest or original.

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

Although clearly a borrow word, in English, ur- means proto, primative, earliest or original.

Absolutely, but this meaning doesn’t seem to be part of Aurochs.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I'd include it in a list of deprecated terms, mostly from the Hero Wars era, and not generally used in Glorantha publications after 2008 (perhaps earlier)

It's in the Guide though, so it's probably more a case of "less-used" than "obsolete and deprecated"? 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Oracle]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's in the Guide though, so it's probably more a case of "less-used" than "obsolete and deprecated"? 

Or (if I understood Jeff correctly above) maybe it is more, that these terms are not so much used in the Sartar/Dragon Pass area, but maybe are used more in other areas like Prax? And that most of the current RuneQuest publications concentrate heavily on the Sartar/Dragon Pass area?

[Akhôrahil]

26 minutes ago, Oracle said:

Or (if I understood Jeff correctly above) maybe it is more, that these terms are not so much used in the Sartar/Dragon Pass area, but maybe are used more in other areas like Prax? And that most of the current RuneQuest publications concentrate heavily on the Sartar/Dragon Pass area?

Maybe, but that would be kinda weird - in HQ/HW Storm Bull was the Great Spirit in Prax and Urox the God among Heortlings (while being the same transcendent entity, presumably). 

[Nick Brooke]

8 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Maybe, but that would be kinda weird - in HQ/HW Storm Bull was the Great Spirit in Prax and Urox the God among Heortlings (while being the same transcendent entity, presumably). 

Another generally ignored, deprecated and obsolete concept. Nowadays we just say “Storm Bull” to cover both, and don’t invent hair-splitting differences.

[soltakss]

7 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Another generally ignored, deprecated and obsolete concept.

Yeah, a lot of the Hero Wars and HeroQuest concepts were mythical abstractions made to fit certain theories and then shoehorned into Glorantha.

They were fine for justification for some parts of the rules, but just tied themselves into knots.

I ignored them almost as soon as I read them.

[Jeff]

22 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Maybe, but that would be kinda weird - in HQ/HW Storm Bull was the Great Spirit in Prax and Urox the God among Heortlings (while being the same transcendent entity, presumably). 

Storm Bull is the god of the desert wind for both the Praxians and the Orlanthi. Given how important it is for the Praxians and the proximity of the Block to Sartar, it shouldn't surprise ANYONE that this is the same cult. Call it Storm Bull and move on.

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Nowadays we just say “Storm Bull” to cover both

I mean, I don't think there's even a "both" in RQG - it's the one thing. The difference was (I imagine?) introduced to support both a spirit and a god cult, and the whole need for that is gone now.

That said, even if we only talk about "Storm Bull" from a rules perspective, he's called Urox in-world in some places (not necessarily Dragon Pass/Prax)?

[Alex]

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's in the Guide though, so it's probably more a case of "less-used" than "obsolete and deprecated"? 

Somewhat less-used even in the guide, and often the two in one breath.  Which is more of a mouthful than I'd want to be be bothering with often.

 

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I mean, I don't think there's even a "both" in RQG - it's the one thing. The difference was (I imagine?) introduced to support both a spirit and a god cult, and the whole need for that is gone now.

I don't even think there was a "both" in The Former System -- as clunkily and cheesily (for my tastes) it did the Three Worlds thing, that guy with the sore head, horns, and chaos-killing magic was a very clearly specified exception in both cases.  "Hrm, he gets a -20 penalty for doing that..."  "Do you want to tell him?"  "I think I might let it go."

It wasn't even just a "game system" thing; I wasn't all that thrilled about the way it's namechecked in The Book of Heortling Mythology.

 

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

That said, even if we only talk about "Storm Bull" from a rules perspective, he's called Urox in-world in some places (not necessarily Dragon Pass/Prax)?

IMG it's his name in Sartar if you're talking about him mythologically between old-school Hardcore Orlanthi Theist Dudes(TM), and "the Storm Bull" is a commonly used and universally recognised title.  Possibly the balance between the two is slightly different elsewhere -- less Praxian berserkers turning up at short notice to share their thoughts on the matter -- but by the same token he's less important in most other places anyway.  Doubtless there are secondary cult centres around 

I don't think Gloranthans in general or Orlanthi in particular are the least bit confused by things having more than one name.  OTOH, gamers are a simple people, so no harm in streamlining references!

[Shiningbrow]

I like the idea of different Argraths, as well as their various supporters - especially amongst the Lhankor Mhy... So, different Knowing God factions all having their own version of "truth"... 

[Alex]

56 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I like the idea of different Argraths, as well as their various supporters - especially amongst the Lhankor Mhy... So, different Knowing God factions all having their own version of "truth"... 

I think all manner of people will have their political or prophetic hot-take on who fits the bill for what future job.  Kallyr liberated Old Sartar, nice, the White Bull liberated Farpoint and gave the Lunars their latest hiding [update according to current chronology], handy thanks, but eaten bread's soon forgot.  What about turfing them out of Tarsh, and any other given Theyalan homeland?  What about tearing down the Red Moon?   Who's the right person for doing that?  What's even the right thing to do?  There will be inevitable conflicts between the "doesn't go far enough" and the "goes too far" tendencies, among others.  (It's none of our business.  The cure might be worse than the disease.  Dragonfriend right, that always ends well.)  Whether or not that's all settled by this point, not everyone is going to get the memo on that.

[Kettlehelm]

On 10/26/2021 at 2:50 AM, smiorgan said:

@Jeff Related to my original question... are there any plans for a pre-1625 part of the RQ campaign? A bit like Uther era for the Pendragon campaign? 

It's called Runequest Classic/2e/3e and the conversion guide at the back of the RQRG book helps you play through all the adventures released from 1612/1613-1620. Now these are consistent with RQRG canon just as much as Orlanth is Dead is, but that's part of the fun of being a GM.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Kettlehelm
Misspelling

[DreadDomain]

On 10/27/2021 at 3:40 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Maybe, but that would be kinda weird - in HQ/HW Storm Bull was the Great Spirit in Prax and Urox the God among Heortlings (while being the same transcendent entity, presumably). 

To me it makes perfect sense that different cultures will approach the same entity from an angle that is coloured by their own cultural idiosyncrasies. Great spirit for some, god for others, Urox for some, Storm Bull for others and Urox the Storm Bull for some other. And yet, it's the same entity, the same cult. It's all part of the richness of Glorantha.

Edited November 3, 2021 by DreadDomain

[Akhôrahil]

27 minutes ago, DreadDomain said:

To me it makes perfect sense that different cultures will approach the same entity from an angle that is coloured by their own cultural idiosyncrasies. Great spirit for some, god for others, Urox for some, Storm Bull for others and Urox the Storm Bull for some other. And yet, it's the same entity, the same cult. It's all part of the richness of Glorantha.

Oh, absolutely - it's more that it was Urox in Dragon Pass and Storm Bull in Prax in HW/HQ, not the other way 'round.

I've also already been curious elsewhere what winds Storm Bull worshipers in Fronela and Peloria associate with their god - the ones in Fronela likely have never even heard of the Desert Wind of the Wastes. 

[metcalph]

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I've also already been curious elsewhere what winds Storm Bull worshipers in Fronela and Peloria associate with their god - the ones in Fronela likely have never even heard of the Desert Wind of the Wastes. 

Storm Bull worship was imported there by the World Council in the Dawn.  Within Charg there's a mysterious land called the Bleak Land which might be chaos cursed and so be a good land to find Storm Bullies.  

[Akhôrahil]

15 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Storm Bull worship was imported there by the World Council in the Dawn.  Within Charg there's a mysterious land called the Bleak Land which might be chaos cursed and so be a good land to find Storm Bullies.  

No, I agree, but would they really maintain that it's the Desert Wind that they've never and seen and worse, has absolutely no relevance to them? Or would they map it onto some local wind that actually matters to them? It's been 1500 years, after all.

This kind of thing should happen all over the place - you only have to go to Talastar to get a different Primary Sacred Mountain from Kero Fin for Orlanthi.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[metcalph]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

No, I agree, but would they really maintain that it's the Desert Wind that they've never and seen and worse, has absolutely no relevance to them?

Depends on whether the Bleak Land is a desert or not.

 

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

Depends on whether the Bleak Land is a desert or not.

Yes, good point! But most of Fronela isn't, at least.

[Alex]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

No, I agree, but would they really maintain that it's the Desert Wind that they've never and seen and worse, has absolutely no relevance to them? Or would they map it onto some local wind that actually matters to them? It's been 1500 years, after all.

The whole "Block and the Devil" thing is surely core and so important that they's have gotten the memos by now.  But that doesn't mean it's not polycentric, with local attributes in addition.

[David Scott]

In Prax and the Wastes, Storm Bull is ever present as he hangs in the sky as the Raging Storm and the Eternal Battle. If we look in Cults of Terror & Dorastor (the source of Urox), he referred to as a Storm God/War God. Rage Bellower, Berserk Killer of Chaos. The Raging Storm isn't there, so he's not the desert wind, but he's still a Storm God (son of Umath & Mikyh). His wind powers are only a small air elemental anyway, he can't summon the desert wind. His mythology has two stages - tantrum on the spike, followed by chaos smashing (mainly in Genert's Garden). So while his cult originated in one location with all of the local trappings (Raging Storm, Block, Eiritha Hills, etc), when it moved out, the myths didn't change, but the focus remained on smashing chaos. His storm aspect is more of a family thing, his chaos killer aspect is his personal thing. In our world we have religions where events happened far away, members know the myths, but don't need to have the sources present to be members or enact the ceremonies. Every Storm Bull will go and visit Storm Bull on High Holy days at the Eternal Battle, Raging Storm or final battle with the Devil (before squished), regardless of their location.

[smiorgan]

13 hours ago, Kettlehelm said:

It's called Runequest Classic/2e/3e and the conversion guide at the back of the RQRG book helps you play through all the adventures released from 1612/1613-1620. Now these are consistent with RQRG canon just as much as Orlanth is Dead is, but that's part of the fun of being a GM.

Thanks, that's wise advice. I've got almost all the relevant RQ2/3  stuff and I hope to use some of it soon with RQG.

However, none of it (except the Cradle scenario, perhaps) is about the major events that lead into the Hero Wars. It's another style of campaign entirely. Plus, there is the 1621-25 gap, in which a lot of things happen ( which are covered by HW and HQ supplements).

 

[Nick Brooke]

You need to read Company of the Dragon, mate. It's exactly what you are looking for.