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The question of female knights


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On 11/4/2021 at 11:29 AM, Leingod said:

This isn't necessarily to pin the blame on Rome

One of the strangest things I've ever read was in the Summa Theologica, where Aquinus is arguing against the Aristotelians who think they've got an invincible argument against Christianity: the Garden of Eden is supposed to be perfect, but has a woman in it.

Why was this considered an invincible argument? Because there can only be one Platonic Form for humans. This was considered self-evidently male. Women, therefore, were a flawed an broken form of men. Therefore, there couldn't be a woman in the Garden of Eden without it being imperfect.

This is the sort of stuff that a millennia later, the church was still having to argue against! So by all means pin the blame on Rome. And remember that the pagan world was no better.

There's a reason that women have traditionally liked Christianity...

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On 11/19/2022 at 2:10 PM, whitelaughter said:

This is the sort of stuff that a millennia later, the church was still having to argue against! So by all means pin the blame on Rome. And remember that the pagan world was no better.

There's a reason that women have traditionally liked Christianity...

This reminded me about "Da Vinci code" movie (haven't read book yet, heard it a little bit better), where "historian" claimed the pagan romans maintained balance between male and female, and then evil catholics came and suppressed women with witch burning in middle ages😅. Except 1) as you mentioned, romans (and greeks) was extremely misogynistic 2) pagan romans had witch hunts, while early christian didn't 3)mass witch burnings started only after middle ages, was mostly done by protestants, not catholics, and there was just as much men burned as women...

Edited by Oleksandr
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Philippa Gregory doesn't attempt a hatchet-job on present day organisations.  Her novelisations are open to criticism, certainly, but opinions about the past differ.  YRWMV.

It is also worth remembering that David Starkey, possibly her strongest critic, is a man who talks about Britain having become a foreign country due to the speech of immigrants, and that he wishes people would "stop going on about slavery".  Not, I would suggest, a man whose opinions should be taken seriously.

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On 11/22/2022 at 10:37 AM, Ali the Helering said:

Not, I would suggest, a man whose opinions should be taken seriously.

I don't know who this Gregory and Starkey are, but just because person say something controversial doesn't necessarily mean that said person automatically wrong in everything.

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1 hour ago, Oleksandr said:

I don't know who this Gregory and Starkey are, but just because person say something controversial doesn't necessarily mean that said person automatically wrong in everything.

i mean, Starkey's a polemical figure and has literally always been one; his interest in history has always been explicitly nationalistic.

Philippa Gregory is a novelist, full stop. I really think comparing her to Dan Brown, who is one of the worst writers I've ever read in print, is warranted. I'm not alone in that opinion, either: his writing is literally difficult to endure. (This is aside from the Graham Hancock-level of his plots; even if we don't like it, people are allowed to write crazy shit. Neither pretends to be writing actual history.)

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5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I really think comparing her to Dan Brown, who is one of the worst writers I've ever read in print, is warranted.

I haven't read any of Dan Brown's stuff, but I really liked the first edition of The DaVinci Code, which was called Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Very interesting for a conspiratorial-minded teenager!

EDIT: Or was HBHG actually a second edition of the French Dossiers Secrets? The conspiracy (and BS) go ever deeper the more you look!

Edited by AlHazred

ROLAND VOLZ

Running: nothing | Playing: Battletech Hero, CoC 7th Edition, Blades in the Dark | Planning: D&D 5E Home Game, Operation: Sprechenhaltestelle, HeroQuest 1E Sartarite Campaign

D&D is an elf from Tolkien, a barbarian from Howard, and a mage from Vance fighting monsters from Lovecraft in a room that looks like it might have been designed by Wells and Giger. - TiaNadiezja

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  • 3 weeks later...

Another interesting example, Brabançons mercenary company was said to have some women among their ranks. It wouldn't be any remarcable If they was just cooks or nurses. It was said that in  battle of Malemort " 2,000 Brabançon men and women were killed", so this women didn't stay in camp. On the other hand, this mercenaries was notorious in their brutality...

On more positive note "Although Wilton Abbey was a Benedictine nunnery, it held its lands from the king by knight service. The Abbess' knights were her tenants, who in turn held land from the Abbey by knight service. Usually the abbess fulfilled her duty to the king by scutage. But she had knights with King Henry III on his 1223 Welsh campaign, and at the Siege of Bedford Castle the following year. Between 1277 and 1327 she offered knight service at least four times"

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1 hour ago, Oleksandr said:

On more positive note "Although Wilton Abbey was a Benedictine nunnery, it held its lands from the king by knight service. The Abbess' knights were her tenants, who in turn held land from the Abbey by knight service. Usually the abbess fulfilled her duty to the king by scutage. But she had knights with King Henry III on his 1223 Welsh campaign, and at the Siege of Bedford Castle the following year. Between 1277 and 1327 she offered knight service at least four times"

This doesn't mean that the Abbess herself was a knight, just to make that point clear. Just that she was the liege lady to some vassal knights in the lands of the Abbey.

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20 hours ago, Morien said:

This doesn't mean that the Abbess herself was a knight, just to make that point clear. Just that she was the liege lady to some vassal knights in the lands of the Abbey.

Yes, i know that 😀. What i wanted to point out was abbesses at all almost absent from KAP, much less as liege ladies. When discussing status of women in medieval society that's quite important.

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1 hour ago, Oleksandr said:

What i wanted to point out was abbesses at all almost absent from KAP, much less as liege ladies. When discussing status of women in medieval society that's quite important.

I'd add as a quick qualifier that the only book where we have gotten a more detailed look at the church organizations has been Book of Uther. Which is supposed to portray a more brutal, less refined period. So the absence of abbesses in the org chart is not all that surprising, all the more so since BoU mentions that there are apparently no independent nunneries at this time, but that all are attached to an abbey, and hence the abbess reports to the abbot. Amesbury is one example of this. (And yes, I know at least a couple of examples from medieval history where the exact opposite was the case, the abbess ruling over the abbot. But they are very much the exceptions.)

I'd expect that independent nunneries might flourish under Guenever's patronage, though.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/13/2022 at 12:28 PM, Morien said:

And yes, I know at least a couple of examples from medieval history where the exact opposite was the case, the abbess ruling over the abbot. But they are very much the exceptions.

It seems right for at least one such monastery to exist under Arthur reign. With vassal knights, of course 😀.

On 12/13/2022 at 12:28 PM, Morien said:

Which is supposed to portray a more brutal, less refined period.

I cannot avoid feeling that this was less about being period appropriate and more creators acting on preconceptions about middle ages...🤔

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  • 2 weeks later...

10-2_large.jpg?w=640

"Sir Walter was on his way to a tournament, perhaps near Darmstadt, when he passed a church dedicated to the Virgin Mary, to whom he was thoroughly devoted– in fact, preparing for the tournament, he had fastened her favour around his arm the way other knights did with their sweethearts’ tokens. He decided to stop and pray. A priest mentioned that he would be giving mass soon, and Sir Walter decided to stay for mass.

After a while, Sir Walter realized he was terribly late for the tournament. As he hastened to the field, he saw many men approaching who looked like they’d been fighting. The tournament had ended. But before Walter could get very down on himself about it, a very strange thing happened: the men approaching began to negotiate terms of ransom and release with him, as if he had captured them during the fight.

They explained, by and by, that a valiant knight in Sir Walter’s armor, with Sir Walter’s heraldry and banners, had ruled the day, performing such feats of martial prowess as had rarely been seen in living memory. Many prisoners were taken, many honors were won.

For while Sir Walter was busy at his devotions, the Virgin Mary had gone and taken his place at the tournament.

Sir Walter threw down his armaments on the spot and declared he would devote himself thereafter to her service, forsaking knightly life."

Wut😳?..

 

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12 hours ago, Oleksandr said:

For while Sir Walter was busy at his devotions, the Virgin Mary had gone and taken his place at the tournament.

Sir Walter threw down his armaments on the spot and declared he would devote himself thereafter to her service, forsaking knightly life."

Wut😳?..

my reaction to "the Virgin Mary covered for me while I prayed" would absolutely not be "so I'll leave that work and become a monk". SHE COVERED FOR YOU SO YOU WOULDN'T LOSE FACE PLEASE DO NOT IMMEDIATELY QUIT THAT JOB

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There WERE female war leaders and combatants in the Middle Ages. The historical record is absolutely clear on that point.

There is speculation that there were even Christian Saxon female thegns to go along with the Norse/Dane shield maidens. That one is still be argued about, however, and I don't know of any conclusive proof of a any equivalent to a Christian woman knight.

We also know from the writings of Alcuin of York that Carolingian women took part in combat... not merely protecting their village but as armored semi-professionals.

That and modern sensibilities allow for female knights. Yes, the Christian ideal is the cult of Mary 'maiden, mother, matron, crone' archetype, but there's room for a 'Dame Aelgyfa' in the Round Table.

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8 hours ago, svensson said:

We also know from the writings of Alcuin of York that Carolingian women took part in combat... not merely protecting their village but as armored semi-professionals.

In my experience finding specific pieces among prolific writing can be quite hard 😱... Maybe you happen to have direct quotes? I would be thankful 😃

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3 hours ago, Oleksandr said:

In my experience finding specific pieces among prolific writing can be quite hard 😱... Maybe you happen to have direct quotes? I would be thankful 😃

So, I was a medieval reenactor for a long time in the era B.I. [Before Internet 😁]. Back then you had to do your own research with whatever sources you could find, gather, and borrow. My primary interest was the period before 1200, basically from the First Crusade on backwards.

I'd read an account of Alcuin speaking of a battle on the Franconian March [the border with the Czech-Slovak region, which was still Pagan at the time] where several women donned armor as part of the markgraf's levy and were killed in a border skirmish. The bishop accompanying the force wrote to Charlemagne calling it another 'Massacre of the Innocents' and saying that women were needed to bear the next generation of warriors and therefore shouldn't be soldiers.

But I read that reference almost 30 years ago and those notes are long since gone. It was in a book at the University of Washington but I no longer have access to the library there.

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On 1/5/2023 at 7:50 AM, svensson said:

But I read that reference almost 30 years ago and those notes are long since gone. It was in a book at the University of Washington but I no longer have access to the library there.

Women are also illustrated in medieval fighting manuals (Fechtbücher); the Walpurgis Fechtbuch is actually named for a female fighter illustrated in it, who has the unfortunate name "Walpurgis" and the not unfortunate experience of being illustrated as the exact match of the male fighter illustrated in it, both with sword and board.

MS_I.33_32r_close

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4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

the Walpurgis Fechtbuch is actually named for a female fighter illustrated in it, who has the unfortunate name "Walpurgis"

I don't see how this is an unfortunate name. St. Walburga (also rendered Walpurgis, Valpurga, Valborg, Valderburg, or Guibor) was a skilled writer and calligrapher; she is often called the first female author of both England and Germany. It's a good legacy! Not much to do with fighting, but I love the idea that she transcribed fechtbücher and got attached to them that way.

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ROLAND VOLZ

Running: nothing | Playing: Battletech Hero, CoC 7th Edition, Blades in the Dark | Planning: D&D 5E Home Game, Operation: Sprechenhaltestelle, HeroQuest 1E Sartarite Campaign

D&D is an elf from Tolkien, a barbarian from Howard, and a mage from Vance fighting monsters from Lovecraft in a room that looks like it might have been designed by Wells and Giger. - TiaNadiezja

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59 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I think it's just my own thought after having a grandmother named Mildred; it's got a good legacy but boy does it sound bad in English. (Mine went by "Millie" her whole life.)

Personally, I see nothing at all wrong with it. And having a name that's gone out of fashion just means people will less frequently confuse you with other people who have the same name.

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ROLAND VOLZ

Running: nothing | Playing: Battletech Hero, CoC 7th Edition, Blades in the Dark | Planning: D&D 5E Home Game, Operation: Sprechenhaltestelle, HeroQuest 1E Sartarite Campaign

D&D is an elf from Tolkien, a barbarian from Howard, and a mage from Vance fighting monsters from Lovecraft in a room that looks like it might have been designed by Wells and Giger. - TiaNadiezja

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21 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Women are also illustrated in medieval fighting manuals (Fechtbücher); the Walpurgis Fechtbuch is actually named for a female fighter illustrated in it, who has the unfortunate name "Walpurgis" and the not unfortunate experience of being illustrated as the exact match of the male fighter illustrated in it, both with sword and board.

What also interesting is that her opponent is a monk. Quite odd choice too...😃

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