The question of society

[Oleksandr]

On 11/24/2022 at 9:31 PM, Ali the Helering said:

I understand collectivism - but individuals still retain personality.

I talked quite a lot with people from similar culture. Curiously, many of them couldn't understand way anybody would even want to be represented - "government know better". For them it easier to adjust their needs to whims of ruling elite then vice versa. In fact, most of them believed that representative democracy is a scam. Of course, most historical cultures wasn't as extreme as modern autocracies...

On 11/25/2022 at 1:30 PM, Morien said:

For example in Britain, at the time of Queen Victoria, women (even aristocratic ones) did not have a vote, and even Victoria's position had already become more ceremonial than anything else

It's important to distinguish nominal power and actual one. As biggest example, largest muslim empire in history for more than a century was ruled by succession of women - mothers, wives, concubines (and one sister) of puppet "sultans". Not only they had no oficial status, legally many of them was slaves. As i said earlier, things like that happened in medieval Europe too.

P.s. i noticed qurious trend... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Women_rulers_by_century

[Ali the Helering]

2 hours ago, Oleksandr said:

I talked quite a lot with people from similar culture. Curiously, many of them couldn't understand way anybody would even want to be represented - "government know better". For them it easier to adjust their needs to whims of ruling elite then vice versa. In fact, most of them believed that representative democracy is a scam. Of course, most historical cultures wasn't as extreme as modern autocracies...

There are no similar cultures now.  It is one of the problems with late 19th and early 20th century anthropology which assumed there could be such parallelism.  Post-modern critique demonstrates that it is not so.

Even representative democracies have a ruling elite.  In the UK certain schools and universities provide the vast majority of our upper political echelons.  Whether you view this as a scam or an inevitable problem is up to you.  I view it as an inevitable outcome of a post-imperial capitalist society.  We too have to adjust our needs to their whims....  

[Oleksandr]

21 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

There are no similar cultures now. 

There are ones which are far worse..

21 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Even representative democracies have a ruling elite.  In the UK certain schools and universities provide the vast majority of our upper political echelons.  Whether you view this as a scam or an inevitable problem is up to you.  I view it as an inevitable outcome of a post-imperial capitalist society.  We too have to adjust our needs to their whims...

It's look quite different from outside West 😉. We have proverb out there "i wish i would have your problems".

[Ali the Helering]

Yup.  It looks far worse elsewhere, wherever you stand. 

As has been said "The grass is always greener over the septic tank"🤣

[Oleksandr]

Question about Berrocingas ("Saxons!" mentioned another group of "pre-hengist" saxon, Wilrningas, this question relevant for them too), since they wasn't invaders but settled peacefully, do they actually have any slaves? It seem logical to assume they had mostly laets 🧐

[Hzark10]

For ease of play, it is assumed that the Berrocingas have given up the slave portion of their culture as it is frowned upon in the civilized portions of Logres. As always, YPMV.

[Professor Chaos]

Remember that 'noble' in medieval England was a much more restricted category than in continental Europe - for several centuries the only official noble title was earl/count and that baron as an actual hereditary title only comes in after Parliaments become a thing and that viscounts, marquesses and dukes only appear in the reigns of Edward III and his successors (which would be Pendragon phase 3 if not 4?) and knighthood was something that landowners increasingly avoided as it was an unnecessary expense.  

But I am pretty sure that Greg did not want the later phases of the GPC to slavishly imitate the actual 14th and 15th centuries - for a start there is no near constant state of war with Scotland and France, no great peasants revolt and while Mordred's rebellion does owe something to the Wars of the Roses it lasts for one battle rather than 30 years... 

 

 

 

 

 

[Oleksandr]

On 12/21/2022 at 8:53 PM, Professor Chaos said:

Remember that 'noble' in medieval England was a much more restricted category than in continental Europe - for several centuries the only official noble title was earl/count and that baron as an actual hereditary title only comes in after Parliaments become a thing and that viscounts, marquesses and dukes only appear in the reigns of Edward III and his successors (which would be Pendragon phase 3 if not 4?) and knighthood was something that landowners increasingly avoided as it was an unnecessary expense

Well, Arthurian stories are heavily influenced by french literature, so..😀 +KAP put heavy emphasis on knightly adventures over courtly intrigue, thus in make sense to "boost" number of low rank nobility. Especially considering relative idealism of the setting - high nobles tended to be much more oppressive than minor ones...

[Oleksandr]

On 11/5/2021 at 2:20 PM, Oleksandr said:

What also wasn't mentioned in KAP materials is that communes of free peasants could be collectively manor holders (which wasn't unique to DB England).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasant_republic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dithmarschen

[Oleksandr]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinque_Ports

Can something like that exist in Arthurian Logres?😀

[Morien]

1 hour ago, Oleksandr said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinque_Ports

Can something like that exist in Arthurian Logres?😀

Why not? I don't see any reason why they couldn't.

[Oleksandr]

On 6/19/2023 at 12:25 PM, Morien said:

Why not? I don't see any reason why they couldn't.

Well, certain somebody above very intensely tried to convince me that "realistically" it "supposed" to be oppressive hellhole 😅

[Qizilbashwoman]

On 6/19/2023 at 4:20 AM, Oleksandr said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinque_Ports

Can something like that exist in Arthurian Logres?😀

i must say that article was fascinating to read, particularly the local court system

The question is: does ship service motivate the Kingdom of Logres? I'd guess that it does given that while the Matter of Britain is Romano-British and Saxon England, it is set in high chivalry, and the Cinque Ports were established right after 1000 CE.

[soltakss]

On 6/19/2023 at 9:20 AM, Oleksandr said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinque_Ports

Can something like that exist in Arthurian Logres?😀

Well, Dover, Sandwich and Romney were Roman ports, so they could well be ports. Hastings is later and and Hythe is even later, but you could have them founded in/by Arthur's time.

[teo twawki]

On 6/21/2023 at 4:54 AM, Oleksandr said:

"realistically" it "supposed" to be oppressive hellhole

In our group, we strive for authenticity over realistic. In that, everything and everyone gets a fair shake... if presented or depicted.

[Oleksandr]

On 6/22/2023 at 10:38 PM, soltakss said:

Well, Dover, Sandwich and Romney were Roman ports, so they could well be ports. Hastings is later and and Hythe is even later, but you could have them founded in/by Arthur's time.

I would say that Logres version not necessary must be identical to real thing, and not even necessary based around ports - there was also alliances of landlocked cities elsewhere in Europe. In fact, it better to Arthurian version to NOT be based around ports...

[Oleksandr]

I noticed, IIRC in BoE, statement that there are not really that much vassal knights, majority being household ones. But it seams it wasn't the case in older editions. I'm curious why such change was made.🤔

[Morien]

1 hour ago, Oleksandr said:

I noticed, IIRC in BoE, statement that there are not really that much vassal knights, majority being household ones. But it seams it wasn't the case in older editions. I'm curious why such change was made.🤔

IIRC, Greg said he had done more research and found out that being a landed knight was the exception, not the rule. Since he was using real English medieval society as his touchstone for Book of -series, he changed the amount of vassal knights.

[Oleksandr]

On 9/14/2023 at 11:40 AM, Morien said:

IIRC, Greg said he had done more research and found out that being a landed knight was the exception, not the rule. Since he was using real English medieval society as his touchstone for Book of -series, he changed the amount of vassal knights.

That make sense, however i should point out that larger %-ge of landed knights feels more "arthurian"))

Another consideration, according to my research, landed knights was way more common in borderlands, and Britain in KAP consist of multitude of relatively small kingdoms...🤔

[Oleksandr]

"Their custom was to hold a general meeting once a year in the center of Saxony near the river Weser at a place called Marklo. There all the satraps (chiefs) used to gather together and they were joined by twelve noblemen from each clan with as many freemen and serfs. There they confirmed the laws, gave judgment on outstanding cases and by common consent drew up plans for the coming year on which they could act either in peace or war." — Vita Lebuini Antiqua

 Found in Paladins rullbook. Pretty interesting. Could such traditions existed among their british kin?

[SDLeary]

A Folkmoot. If you can find a copy of Saxons, I think it’s described there. (Not near books at the moment)

SDLeary