Summon Elemental vs. Summon Cult Spirit

[Ryan Kent]

So many cults have elementals as cult spirits, subject to the Control Cult Spirit Rune Spell.  Could the Summon Cult Spirit Rune Spell be used to summon an elemental?  If so, why ever select the Summon Elemental Rune Spell as a choice if a Common Rune Spell does the trick?

[Ludo Bagman]

This was discussed several times already, you can find some answers here:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/cha4034-the-red-book-of-magic/cha4032-the-red-book-of-magic-qa/cha4032-red-book-of-magic-chapter-02-rune-magic-spells-qa/#Summon-Cult-Spirit

1 hour ago, Ryan Kent said:

Could the Summon Cult Spirit Rune Spell be used to summon an elemental?

Their answer was no, but a GM may rule otherwise.
 

[Scotty]

1 hour ago, Ryan Kent said:

So many cults have elementals as cult spirits, subject to the Control Cult Spirit Rune Spell.  Could the Summon Cult Spirit Rune Spell be used to summon an elemental?  If so, why ever select the Summon Elemental Rune Spell as a choice if a Common Rune Spell does the trick?

Please see Summon (Cult Spirit) in the Rules Q&A

[Zalain]

I´m so sorry but neither me or my players understand the difference between them. after reading and reading, once and another the spells and looking for examples and discussing to the death. In fact, this confusion is one of the causes 3 of 5 of my players prefer sorcery.

the  only  of the  examples given in Well of daliath that we agree, is that if a Zorak  zoran follower sends a Fire elemental against a yelm adventurer, he CANT control it with Command Cult spirit rune spell, because that fire elemental hasnt been sent by zorak zoran.

what spirits can summon a Orlanthi with Summon Cult Spirit what could help adventurers? anything excepting an Air Elemental? can he choose? or exclusively it depends of the rune points and the rune used?

...or can i use Summon air elemental rune spell but control it with command cult spirit??

can a Foundchild initiate, summon a Dryad of the woods? or only animal spirits? any (already dead) hunter spirit?  and how it may help?

Could a fisical animal be summoned by summon spirit cult rune spell? Or would it be the ethereal one? (Following Glorantha bestiary animal spirits list)

please, need  clarification because we lost precious time in our last game discussing this (and we only can meet once a month). it drove me crazy. it DRIVES me crazy

Edited July 21, 2023 by Zalain
More questions to do, but didnt want to write a new answer

[Ormi Phengaria]

23 hours ago, Zalain said:

please, need  clarification because we lost precious time in our last game discussing this (and we only can meet once a month). it drove me crazy. it DRIVES me crazy

Unfortunately, at this time the list of spirits of any rune cult is pretty much "just make it up." That's always going to be at least somewhat the case, though, and the Bestiary provides, in my experience, a good set of tools for making your own spirits. This shouldn't really be something that requires more than GM fiat (though your players preferring sorcery make more sense in light of it. They sound litigious!)

Edited July 21, 2023 by Ormi Phengaria

[Akhôrahil]

On 7/21/2023 at 12:16 AM, Zalain said:

I´m so sorry but neither me or my players understand the difference between them. after reading and reading, once and another the spells and looking for examples and discussing to the death.

I would agree that this is a poorly designed rule. It would probably work better if only Summon Cult Spirit existed, and then every cult had a list of its cult spirits (including elementals where applicable). You could also get some gaming goodies out of this by, say, having a shrine that allow people to learn to contact an otherwise unavailable cult spirit.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Daesta]

On 7/23/2023 at 9:05 PM, Akhôrahil said:

I would agree that this is a poorly designed rule. It would probably work better if only Summon Cult Spirit existed, and then every cult had a list of its cult spirits (including elementals where applicable). You could also get some gaming goodies out of this by, say, having a shrine that allow people to learn to contact an otherwise unavailable cult spirit.

Totally agree.  Summoning cult spirits feels a bit bland and generic.  Some kind of listing or example of cult spirits would be really useful.  For example, I recall the fiction describing “flint slingers” as Orlanth cult spirits?   As a player, I always felt bemused that these were described, but we never seemed to have stats for them as summonable things.  And the concept of having a local shrine teaching how to summon a particular cult spirit fits my viewpoint - I’ve already used when GMing.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

29 minutes ago, Daesta said:

Some kind of listing or example of cult spirits would be really useful

Maybe the upcoming Cults books will provide a listing?

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Daesta said:

Totally agree.  Summoning cult spirits feels a bit bland and generic.  Some kind of listing or example of cult spirits would be really useful.  For example, I recall the fiction describing “flint slingers” as Orlanth cult spirits?   As a player, I always felt bemused that these were described, but we never seemed to have stats for them as summonable things.  And the concept of having a local shrine teaching how to summon a particular cult spirit fits my viewpoint - I’ve already used when GMing.

Even the regular S/M/L elementals feel generic and a bit bland.

Flint Slingers would definitely be Cult Spirits, although I imagine Spirits of Reprisal can’t easily be used for tasks outside their job description.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 7/21/2023 at 12:16 AM, Zalain said:

I´m so sorry but neither me or my players understand the difference between them. after reading and reading, once and another the spells and looking for examples and discussing to the death. In fact, this confusion is one of the causes 3 of 5 of my players prefer sorcery.

the  only  of the  examples given in Well of daliath that we agree, is that if a Zorak  zoran follower sends a Fire elemental against a yelm adventurer, he CANT control it with Command Cult spirit rune spell, because that fire elemental hasnt been sent by zorak zoran.

what spirits can summon a Orlanthi with Summon Cult Spirit what could help adventurers? anything excepting an Air Elemental? can he choose? or exclusively it depends of the rune points and the rune used?

...or can i use Summon air elemental rune spell but control it with command cult spirit??

can a Foundchild initiate, summon a Dryad of the woods? or only animal spirits? any (already dead) hunter spirit?  and how it may help?

Could a fisical animal be summoned by summon spirit cult rune spell? Or would it be the ethereal one? (Following Glorantha bestiary animal spirits list)

please, need  clarification because we lost precious time in our last game discussing this (and we only can meet once a month). it drove me crazy. it DRIVES me crazy

don't know if it is what the rules want to do but here is my view :

 

1) elementals (or any type of spirit) are elementals (or any type of spirit)

2) cult spirits are cults spirits. A spirit should be in 0 or 1 cult (very very few should be in several, like multi initiations, that is exception).

3) elementals (or any type of spirit) may be cult spirits.

 

so now:

you  (the player or the npc) summon a sylph with summon elemental [sylph].

- if you (shaman, initiate, sorcerer...) know the name of this sylph you probably know if it is a spirit of a cult or not. As you call it with summon elemental [sylph] you have not to be member of its cult (you can, but it is not mandatory)

- if you don't know the name, you don't know if it is a spirit of a cult or not. It is random (aka GM decision)

Img, a very large part of sylphes ar orlanth "initiates", but some may be valind, stormbull, etc.. or even independant. It depends on a lot of things (where you are what is the dominant god, etc...) same for other elementals with the "element god-dess"

you (the player or the npc) summon a sylph of your cult, with summon cult spirit

- I consider that, as there are different type of spirits in a cult, the spell summon cult spirit allows you to decide what kind will arrive (I want a sylph)

- you are sure that the sylph you summon is member of your cult (and probably initiate if it has INT). If you don't know it, you don't know more, but you know it at least

 

and... that's all for summon a spirit

 

but you may face a sylph summoned by someone else.

and that's the same:

GM knows who summoned the sylph, and knows how: with summon sylph ?  => random cult. With  summon cult spirit => the cult.

so you player is a worshipper of Orlanth. You know both (command cult spirit ) and (command sylph).

As Orlanth is the king of air, you are proud enough to cast command cult spirit.... but you may disappointed if the sylph is not from Orlanth cult

Of course you must cast command sylph to be sure.

but if your friend doesn't know command sylph, at least she can try to use command cult spirit. But she can too use this spell for other spirits than sylphes

 

==> command cult spirit allows you to command any type of spirit, IF they are from the cult / under the domination of the god

==> command sylph allows you to command all sylphes, whatever the cult of the sylph

 

 

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Maybe the upcoming Cults books will provide a listing?

In my own imagination cult spirits would include the spirits of dead cult initiates, as well as spirits eligible to be allied spirits.  

So as I understand it, if you want to see a specific spirit that you can name,  you can use summon cult spirit to do that.  Or if you are promoting an initiate to priest and they get an opportunity to ally a cult spirit, that is how you get the spirit, but you don't invoke a name. 

On the other hand if you just want a generic spirit to deal with a problem,  you can use the same spell.  IMHO Waha's summon spirit of law and Chalana Arroy's summon healing spirit  are just special cases of this, with a specfication added to the spell.  That way the Waha cultist gets a spirit that will attack Chaos rather than the spirit of his grandpa who will say " boy you are in a jam now, I'll give you some advice. ".

Cults with Elemental spirits might produce an Elemental.  But the generic spirit summoning will get you a random spirit  while the spell summoning an Elemental is sure to get you an Elemental.  Many cults don't get elementals.

 

 

 

.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

In my own imagination cult spirits would include the shirts of dead cult initiates,

Well, in my Glorantha, they're also the trousers and shoes! And occasionally, even a hat!!!

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Well, in my Glorantha, they're also the trousers and shoes! And occasionally, even a hat!!!

Spirits.  Auto spelling scrambler is active today.

[Akhôrahil]

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Cults with Elemental spirits might produce an Elemental.  But the generic spirit summoning will get you a random spirit  while the spell summoning an Elemental is sure to get you an Elemental.  Many cults don't get elementals..

Summon Cult Spirit allows you to decide the type of spirit you summon.

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Summon Cult Spirit allows you to decide the type of spirit you summon.

I don't see that in the text, see below.  It looks to me as if (unless you use a specific form of the spell) it's the god's or the GM's choice. 

I note that the more specific summoning spells have specific rune requirements.

From RBOM p.89,

This spell lets the caster ask their deity to send a cult spirit
to their aid. The size of the spirit depends on the number of
Rune points stacked for the spell. As a rule, greater deities
have more sizes and types of cult spirits. The summoned
entity arrives at the end of the round, on strike rank 12.
This spell may be cast simultaneously with Command
(cult spirit) (page 30).
Summon Elemental is a specific example of this spell,
but many other variants exist. Chalana Arroy cultists use
this spell to summon a healing spirit, and Engizi cultists
use this spell to summon a naiad of the Creekstream River.
See the Glorantha Bestiary, pages 169–182, for
examples of cult spirits.

And that page range covers most spirits, not just cult spirits.  i do wonder why Hollri and River Horses are left out (they are on pages 184-185) and i wouldn't allow genius loci myself unless someone was summoning one by name in its usual location.

other thoughts:

Unlike Summon Ancestor there isn't a helpful  table for cult spirit size, spells, or friendliness. 

I suppose the GM could refer to the Creating A Spirit table on page 165 of the Bestiary for guidance  if there is no particular spirit indicated in the planned scenario.  If I am GMing I might deliver a specific spirit if the player could name it; however an Orlanthi who names a Thunder Brother would not get it for one measly rune point.
 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Unlike Summon Ancestor there isn't a helpful  table for cult spirit size, spells, or friendliness. 

because it is said or it depends:

- size = "The size of the spirit depends on the number of
Rune points stacked for the spell."

- friendliness =you ask your deity for a spirit : it is a friend !

- spells = depends on the cult, too many gods, so for me up to gm. Imagine a table with the list of all the shirts of the dead cult initiates 😛

 

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Summon Cult Spirit allows you to decide the type of spirit you summon.

 

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I don't see that in the text, see below.  It looks to me as if (unless you use a specific form of the spell) it's the god's or the GM's choice. 

I have the memory of @Akhôrahil answer but no evidence. So my gm choice is "up to player". Maybe not the character but we will say that player knows as the god what is good for the character (or the god understands what needs the character with the information the character "shows" (compromise, blablabla) so even if it is not good at the end of the day, it was what the character expected unconsciously

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

however an Orlanthi who names a Thunder Brother would not get it for one measly rune point.

Summon Snake Daughter is 4 points. So, I'd figure a Thunder Brother should be the same - although, there are more Snake Daughters than Thunder Brothers, and the TBs tend to be stronger/more powerful.

[Akhôrahil]

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I don't see that in the text, see below.  It looks to me as if (unless you use a specific form of the spell) it's the god's or the GM's choice. 

Core rulebook says "With this spell, the caster asks the deity to send a cult spirit of some type."

[Akhôrahil]

21 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Summon Snake Daughter is 4 points. So, I'd figure a Thunder Brother should be the same

Thunder Brother costs 4 points to summon by the Bestiary (Thunderous only), at least for the sample one there. What muddles the waters is that some rulings have suggested that you still need a special summoning spell for it. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Thunder Brother costs 4 points to summon by the Bestiary (Thunderous only), at least for the sample one there. What muddles the waters is that some rulings have suggested that you still need a special summoning spell for it. 

Thanks! Slipped my mind...