a hide of horses

[Ironwall]

how many horses would you reckon it would take to make the 80 Lunars a year on one hand excess colts can be sold for money as riding and war horses on the other less milk than a cow and you cant shear a horse for wool 

[Ironwall]

personally im leaning towards more horses in a hide than a hide of cows but anyone else have ideas

[Joerg]

Basically, you need to be a good horse master to train an ordinary young horse to a warhorse, and sell off that horse, to get this amount of cash. You could buy the colt, or breed some yourself and only train the most promising.

Horses want good pasture both for grazing and making hay, and some grain fodder. To produce that grain, you need a plow team if you want to do it yourself, or otherwise a grain-farming tenant nearby. That plow team will require some milk cows to replenish the draught beasts.

You also need to feed yourself and your assistants, provide housing etc. for a rich freeman or clan noble standard of living.

I am not really a horse-affine person, so I will leave the training cycle of a young horse from colt to warhorse to more experienced people.

[Alex]

5 hours ago, Ironwall said:

you cant shear a horse for wool 

We must have too many Trickster threads here, as I couldn't read that without hearing "challenge accepted!" somewhere in my head.

[Ironwall]

30 minutes ago, Alex said:

We must have too many Trickster threads here, as I couldn't read that without hearing "challenge accepted!" somewhere in my head.

I mean you probably could and than you'd have a walking meat horse the problem is keeping the horse still 

[Ironwall]

And I just realized it would be like the tablecloth trick

[Alex]

5 hours ago, Ironwall said:

personally im leaning towards more horses in a hide than a hide of cows but anyone else have ideas

In theory that'd be the case, as a raw grass::guilder$ calculation.  But I think there are some constraints on that:-

• There's not bottomless demand for horses, [supply/demand curve go here].
• Horses are much "pickier" eaters.  That plays up to the "flighty notions of themselves" stereotype, but I think there's likely also a biological basis to it.  Cows are 'true' ruminants, whereas horses have somewhat cobbled together the means of digesting grass from a few random gastro-intestinal spare parts.  So you need better land overall, or to supplement with oats, etc, as Jörg says, which in turn needs arable land, or a very large amount of land for them to roam to "pick and choose" on (and infill with sheep or cows).
• They're more labour-intensive.  So you have to have the people, and you have to feed them, too.
• Relatedly, they're more skill-intensive.  They're less robust (vets bills!), but more importantly you need skilled input to breed and train them, to whatever degree.  So if you want a crunchy "Sacred Time phase" for this, I'd look to make it a high-variance "swingy" ability roll, with the possibility of making big money, or losing your shirt.

[soltakss]

On 11/26/2021 at 6:08 PM, Ironwall said:

how many horses would you reckon it would take to make the 80 Lunars a year on one hand excess colts can be sold for money as riding and war horses on the other less milk than a cow and you cant shear a horse for wool 

 

From the RuneQuest Glorantha rules:

Quote

The “standard hide” assumes two oxen to pull the plow, and is already figured into the Hide of Land numbers. Adventurers, however, might want to acquire herds and put them to work. A herd of 20 cattle or 100 sheep generates the same surplus as a hide of land. Of course, unless the owner is the herder (or has adolescent children), the owner needs a tenant herder, who traditionally gets half the surplus (and none of the losses if there is a failure or fumble with the Manage Household skill).

I would say that a herd of horses would be the same and probably between 20 and 100, so maybe 50 horses.

Mares can give milk, but not as much as cows. The milk can be used to make Kumis, cheese and other dairy products.

You can comb horses to pick hairs up and make felt.

You can eat horses, and colts are probably used this way.

Some horses can be used as riding animals or war beasts. 

 

[Darius West]

According to RQG page 404 a Hide of land is between 80 and 120 acres of land.  While you can keep a horse alive for a year on a single acre of land, realistically you would do far better and require a lot less maintenance and extra feed with 2 acres, with 1.5 acres being able to produce about enough grass for a horse to survive comfortably enough but not optimal.  Note that horse pasture is only producing grass and need not be the most fertile land, but a years worth of horse droppings will go a long way towards fertilizing the field.  That means that a hide of land devoted to nothing other than raising horses can feed between 53 and 80 horses.  Female horses can be bred from age 2, but it is safer from age 4 onwards and they can generally foal about 16 times.  Wild Horses can double their herd size in 4-5 years, indicating a fertility rate of 20-25% in the wild.  That means that a herd of 53 horses will produce about 10-11 foals per year (on average), while a herd of 80 will produce 16 foals without humans managing their fertility.  You can also add a lot of value to horses by training them according to the price guidelines on RQG p410.  Historically, raising horses has been an immensely profitable line of pastoralism to get into, but the capital outlay to buy up a breeding herd of good stock was prohibitive.  Remember that not every horse has the stats to be worth training as a warhorse however.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Darius West

[Alex]

59 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Note that horse pasture is only producing grass and need not be the most fertile land, but a years worth of horse droppings will go a long way towards fertilizing the field.

Right, it's not your best arable land that's needed, but from what I gather you want better pasture than you'd use for cattle -- much less for sheep -- or else a much lower "packing density" of head per acre.

[Joerg]

Just now, Alex said:

Right, it's not your best arable land that's needed, but from what I gather you want better pasture than you'd use for cattle -- much less for sheep -- or else a much lower "packing density" of head per acre.

Actually, too good pasture may turn your horses (well, ponies) into barrels only capable of rolling, at least that's what the local zoo director had to say about his pony pasture. You may want slightly less fattening pasture unless your horses are going to the butcher.

[Alex]

14 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Actually, too good pasture may turn your horses (well, ponies) into barrels only capable of rolling, at least that's what the local zoo director had to say about his pony pasture. You may want slightly less fattening pasture unless your horses are going to the butcher.

I'm just going with the "pickier and less relentless eaters than cows" factoid.  That may still be be not that picky, or that...  unrelentless.  If your hossy approximates a spherical equid in a vacuum, you've fumbled that Animal Rearing roll, indeed.

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

..... Female horses can be bred from age 2, but it is safer from age 4 onwards and they can generally foal about 16 times.  Wild Horses can double their herd size in 4-5 years, indicating a fertility rate of 20-25% in the wild.  That means that a herd of 53 horses will produce about 10-11 foals per year (on average), while a herd of 80 will produce 16 foals without humans managing their fertility.  You can also add a lot of value to horses by training them according to the price guidelines on RQG p410. .....

Since the original question is " how many horses would you reckon it would take to make the 80 Lunars a year  ",

the amount of land is moot - it's the size of the horse herd that matters.  Given the breeding numbers Darius West provided, (though you should also figure lifespan in there when you use the doubling time)

the only remaining variables are the breed and the training status of the newly bred horses: 40L for "meat", 75L for a Daron trained to ride, 150L for the same Daron trained as a cavalry mount, 225 trained as a war horse. (RQiG p.410)

I would separate the value of the hide in producing horses from the value of the trainer's work training them, and calculate the hide using "meat" value:  40L per horse.   

So to get 80L profit per year, you need to breed and sell at least 2 horses a year - and often 3, in order to replace your breeding stock as it ages.  Make that a constant 3 per year since in a world where children don't necessarily survive to maturity neither will all horses.

Assuming a 20% fertility rate, if you are raising Darons then you need 3x5 = 15 mares and one stallion. 

If you are raising Goldeneyes, you only need 5 mares and one stallion to produce one colt a year and you will still make an above-average income from your hide of horses.

Now there is an implied next step:  If someone will tell us how long it takes to train a horse as a riding horse, a cav  mount etc. we can tell how many horses a year a horse trainer will train to make a Free standard of living. Interestingly, "horse trainer' is not among the occupation listed in RQiG. 

 

 

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Assuming a 20% fertility rate

Bless Animals is interesting here - it guarantees offspring and 90% chance of female. Presumably this last bit is an advantage in most cases where it will be used, but if you’re raising warhorses, it could potentially be a negative - you want those stallions, after all.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Alex]

22 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Bless Animals is interesting here - it guarantees offspring and 90% chance of female. Presumably this last bit is an advantage in most cases where it will be used, but if you’re raising warhorses, it could potentially be a negative - you want those stallions, after all.

Not a disaster, as I assume there's a "dropoff rate" at each stage.  Not all foals will survive to three (for the sake of argument) years, not all of them will be suitable riding animals, not all of those will be combat-trainable to any degree, or make suitable cavalry horses, or be Black-Horse-Troop wannabe trollkin-eating heavy-cav warhorse steroird-monsters.

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if there were variations on that particular magic.  Especially where there's Dunbar's Number of candidate magical specialists within a feasible geographical area.  And being more pro-male seems very on-brand for Fire Tribe creatures, and their associates!

[Darius West]

I am of the opinion that a hide of land can potentially produce far in excess of the 80L mentioned if a herd of horses is what is managed there.  A herd of only 50 horses will produce 10 animals of "meat" standard every 2 years which can sell for 40L, so after the first year's investment that is a bare minimum of 400L which is in keeping with the figures for a hide in RQG p405.  If however you are training Darons to cavalry standard over the course of the year 1-2, then those 10 animals (150L each) are worth 1500L at market, less 200L for maintaining the hide and its services.

[Baron Wulfraed]

18 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Now there is an implied next step:  If someone will tell us how long it takes to train a horse as a riding horse, a cav  mount etc. we can tell how many horses a year a horse trainer will train to make a Free standard of living. Interestingly, "horse trainer' is not among the occupation listed in RQiG. 

At the extreme end... a lifetime.

The Lipizzaners used, these days, for show performances of the airs-above-ground are essentially light warhorses (the airs being combat moves), and the rider and horse are likely trained in parallel (under guidance of a master?). They've probably been trained for a couple of years (after basic breaking to saddle), minimum, to even be useful.

For routine palfreys and such... First you end up having to keep the animal for around 2 years before even starting to break it to saddle, and that step may then take a few months. Maybe longer if you want something that accepts any rider.

So... you either sell a yearling (cheap?) to someone else with the wherewithal to keep and train it down the road... Or you put up with it for roughly three years with dedicated trainers (to be paid) before selling it. (For a simple riding horse; cavalry training will likely require another year to desensitize it to the noise of combat and having shiny things moving near it)

 

[Eff]

15 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Bless Animals is interesting here - it guarantees offspring and 90% chance of female. Presumably this last bit is an advantage in most cases where it will be used, but if you’re raising warhorses, it could potentially be a negative - you want those stallions, after all.

Well, you don't need stallions to make effective chargers. Steppe peoples, for example, used mares almost exclusively and fought with a mixture of archer and lancer cavalry, at least some knights used mares or geldings for their heavy chargers in medieval Europe... A gender ratio of 1:10 stallions before castration seems like it would outweigh any beliefs about the necessity of stallion virility, and of course, mythologically the Little Sun lost his spear...

[Akhôrahil]

22 minutes ago, Eff said:

Well, you don't need stallions to make effective chargers. Steppe peoples, for example, used mares almost exclusively and fought with a mixture of archer and lancer cavalry, at least some knights used mares or geldings for their heavy chargers in medieval Europe... A gender ratio of 1:10 stallions before castration seems like it would outweigh any beliefs about the necessity of stallion virility, and of course, mythologically the Little Sun lost his spear...

Cavalry horses are fine, that's no problem. But if we're talking what RQ means with a "warhorse", one that will fight as well, then you're going to be much better off with a stallion.

[Leingod]

20 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Now there is an implied next step:  If someone will tell us how long it takes to train a horse as a riding horse, a cav  mount etc. we can tell how many horses a year a horse trainer will train to make a Free standard of living. Interestingly, "horse trainer' is not among the occupation listed in RQiG. 

I have no qualifications to speak with any authority on this subject, but I do recall that Pendragon has some details that we could probably just port over as a set of default assumptions, different settings notwithstanding.

As laid out in the Book of the Estate, it takes at least three years (but preferably four) for a sumpter (a pack horse) to be strong enough to carry heavy loads. If properly cared for, these can work for 20-25 years. A rouncy (riding horse) will take 4-6 years to train, and will also be able to work for 20-25 years if treated properly.

A proper warhorse (that is, a big ornery stallion who can bear the weight of a man in armor and will stomp your enemies into the dirt alongside you) will be 10-13 years old by the time it's ready to ride into battle. If your warhorse is never wounded, overridden, traumatized, or badly handled, it could potentially have a good 20 years in it. More realistically, you've got maybe 10 years tops before it has to be retired. It also takes years to know if a horse will take to training as a warhorse in the first place; it requires not just superior size and strength but also the right temperament and etc. or else you're just wasting your time.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Leingod

[Squaredeal Sten]

28 minutes ago, Leingod said:

I have no qualifications to speak with any authority on this subject, but I do recall that Pendragon has some details that we could probably just port over as a set of default assumptions, different settings notwithstanding.

As laid out in the Book of the Estate, it takes at least three years (but preferably four) for a sumpter (a pack horse) to be strong enough to carry heavy loads. If properly cared for, these can work for 20-25 years. A rouncy (riding horse) will take 4-6 years to train, and will also be able to work for 20-25 years if treated properly.

A proper warhorse (that is, a big ornery stallion who can bear the weight of a man in armor and will stomp your enemies into the dirt alongside you) will be 10-13 years old by the time it's ready to ride into battle. If your warhorse is never wounded, overridden, traumatized, or badly handled, it could potentially have a good 20 years in it. More realistically, you've got maybe 10 years tops before it has to be retired. It also takes years to know if a horse will take to training as a warhorse in the first place; it requires not just superior size and strength but also the right temperament and etc. or else you're just wasting your time.

That gives us a handle on the horse trainer part of the thread.  But can a trainer train more than one horse at the same time? If not simultaneously, then does a trainer work the horse all day, or do one in the morning and one in the afternoon?

If we assume a ratio of one trainer per horse:

Then if a riding horse must be trained 5 years and sells for 75L, then with a cost of 40L the trainer is only gaining 25L over 5 years = 5 L a year.  So unless several can be trained at once it makes no sense to be a trainer of riding horses, the income is only 5L per horse per year.   And that assumes that the horse doesn't have to be fed -  though in the RW there is a saying "eats like a horse".

If training  a warhorse (the step above cavalry mount) ,  standard price for the war-trained Daron is 225L, cost is still 40L, that's a gain of 185L over 10 years, or 18.5L a year.   (Training 13 years that's  14.2L a year   )That is still not a Free standard of living unless more than one warhorse can be trained at a time.

So under those training time assumptions, the Runequest equine economy breaks down.

What different assumptions can we make to make horse training a practical occupation?

Edited November 29, 2021 by Squaredeal Sten
spacing

[David Scott]

For my praxian games, I use the following per hide numbers for sacred time calculations:

  

[Leingod]

26 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

That gives us a handle on the horse trainer part of the thread.  But can a trainer train more than one horse at the same time? If not simultaneously, then does a trainer work the horse all day, or do one in the morning and one in the afternoon?

If we assume a ratio of one trainer per horse:

Then if a riding horse must be trained 5 years and sells for 75L, then with a cost of 40L the trainer is only gaining 25L over 5 years = 5 L a year.  So unless several can be trained at once it makes no sense to be a trainer of riding horses, the income is only 5L per horse per year.   And that assumes that the horse doesn't have to be fed -  though in the RW there is a saying "eats like a horse".

If training  a warhorse (the step above cavalry mount) ,  standard price for the war-trained Daron is 225L, cost is still 40L, that's a gain of 185L over 10 years, or 18.5L a year.   (Training 13 years that's  14.2L a year   )That is still not a Free standard of living unless more than one warhorse can be trained at a time.

So under those training time assumptions, the Runequest equine economy breaks down.

What different assumptions can we make to make horse training a practical occupation?

One person can definitely train and care for more than one horse at a time. Again looking at the Book of the Estate, a standard vassal knight's manor supports a herd of 12 horses, 5 of whom will be in training, and all of these will be under the care of just a stabler and two grooms.

[Squaredeal Sten]

4 hours ago, Leingod said:

One person can definitely train and care for more than one horse at a time. Again looking at the Book of the Estate, a standard vassal knight's manor supports a herd of 12 horses, 5 of whom will be in training, and all of these will be under the care of just a stabler and two grooms.

then if one person can train five horses at one time,

Then if a riding horse must be trained 5 years and sells for 75L, then with a cost of 40L@ the trainer of five horses is only gaining 125L over 5 years = 25 L a year.  That is still a poor income.   Still assuming that the horse doesn't have to be fed - 

If training  five warhorses (the step above cavalry mount) for ten years,  standard price for the war-trained Daron is 225L, cost is still 40L@, that's a gain of 925L over 10 years, or 92.5L a year.   This is a good Free income, suitable for a skilled crafter.

[Akhôrahil]

Five years of training for a basic riding horse sounds like… a lot?