a hide of horses

[Alex]

15 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Five years of training for a basic riding horse sounds like… a lot?

They do need several years of growing up.  Maybe around 3-4, from what I've read.  How much of that is 'training' as such is another matter.

I assume the cavalry horse, warhorse, etc, isn't necessarily a great deal older, but the training gets a lot more intensive at some point.  Hence lots of labour-costs and skill rolls.

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

They do need several years of growing up.  Maybe around 3-4, from what I've read.  How much of that is 'training' as such is another matter.

In that case the calculation might be double-counting the cost, though - either you raise it from a foal in which case you don’t need to pay an adult price for an untrained horse, or you buy an untrained horse and don’t spend years with it before you sell it at an improved value?

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Five years of training for a basic riding horse sounds like… a lot?

Yes it does.  But i have never trained a horse. 

They do have a reputation as stupid animals.  So do cattle - but people want their horses to do more complex things, so for all i know it may take that long.  Maybe we should research horse training some more:  for instance,

This person in the RW is selling horse training, https://www.horsetrainingvideos.com/horsetraining-timeframe.htm

and the 21st century round world cost is $1,000 a month.  And this person does not reveal how many horses he or she can train at the same time. 

He claims  " with four months of training, the horse will be working pretty darn good and he’ll have a good foundation on him but he sure won’t be solid or ready to compete in a reining or cutting horse class.

To have a horse ready for tough competition, usually takes 12 to 16 months or more."

So that's four months for, essentially, a riding horse. 

Now if you want a working (cow herding) horse,  "It takes about three months on cattle to get an idea of the horse’s aptitude as a cutting or cow horse.  It takes six to eight months to know if he’s a definite cutting prospect.  With most horses, six to eight months on cattle is enough for them to do a decent job at team penning, sorting and ranch cutting."

OK, that's a sales talk from someone who is a pro horse trainer. NOT a cavalry horse trainer, not a trainer of Lippizans. 

But it does indicate the step from riding horse to cow horse is about a two to one ratio of time.  Is a cow horse's job as complex as a cavalry horse's?  I don't know.   i do know they train for different skills:  I've met a fair number of American Civil War reenactors who do cavalry, and I know they have to train their horses not to throw the rider and gallop away when the cannon and muskets begin to shoot, also when the rider fires a pistol.  Also train them to maneuver together in line abreast.   I  never asked how long that takes, and I am doubtful of how that relates to Bronze Age battle, which would be much quieter.  i do know that most don't train their horse to stand still while the rider 'takes a hit', therefore the low realism of ACW cav reenacting in which the cav hardly ever take hits.  But I judge that the reenactors are NOT training their horses full time: They are normal people who have day jobs. 

Anyway, this would indicate that the training time for a riding horse is more like 4-6 months, and for a cavalry horse is about another 8 - 12 months.   For a warhorse - a Lippizaner ????  do we have anyone from Austria on line who could research it locally?  I thought not.  So I'll just have to rely on the wikipedia article - which says that starting with an already- trained riding horse (after 'the first year of training"),,

• Campaign school, Campagneschule or Campagne, is where the horse learns collection and balance through all gaits, turns, and maneuvers. The horse learns to shorten and lengthen his stride and perform lateral movements to the side, and is introduced to the more complex double bridle. This is the longest training phase and may take several years.^[19]
• High-school dressage, the haute école or Hohe Schule, includes riding the horse with greater collection with increased use of the hindquarters, developing increased regularity, skill, and finesse in all natural gaits. In this period, the horse learns the most advanced movements such as the half-pass, counter-canter, flying change, pirouette, passage, and piaffe. This is also when the horse may be taught the "airs above the ground." This level emphasizes performance with a high degree of perfection.^[

  Hm. "Several years" before the horse even starts to learn dressage, the warhorse activities. 

 

 

 

 

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[Baron Wulfraed]

2 hours ago, Alex said:

They do need several years of growing up.  Maybe around 3-4, from what I've read.  How much of that is 'training' as such is another matter.

I assume the cavalry horse, warhorse, etc, isn't necessarily a great deal older, but the training gets a lot more intensive at some point.  Hence lots of labour-costs and skill rolls.

Three to four years to get to a load-carrying stage -- unless one is an 80lb jockey on a 2 year old Thoroughbred.

You could start training with the 2 year old in terms of getting it used to being led on halter, then introduce a bit and work the animal on a lunge-line... Saddle (but no rider) some time later. Maybe some dead weights on the saddle to introduce it to the load of a rider.

 

[Alex]

24 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

You could start training with the 2 year old in terms of getting it used to being led on halter, then introduce a bit and work the animal on a lunge-line... Saddle (but no rider) some time later. Maybe some dead weights on the saddle to introduce it to the load of a rider.

Yeah, I was offering up a ballpark guess as to the likely minimum age of something appearing on "Horse, riding" pricelist item.  No doubt all sorts of other horsetrading -- sorrynotsorry -- at the moot happens too, with people buying and selling for preliminary training, finishing, specialised training, bloodstock, etc.

[Martin Dick]

In Australia, some horses are started racing as 2 year olds (though this is not recommended - https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/what-is-the-rspcas-view-on-racing-two-year-old-horses/) but the average age is 3 years old.

[Ladygolem]

On 11/29/2021 at 1:45 PM, David Scott said:

For my praxian games, I use the following per hide numbers for sacred time calculations:

  

What numbers would you put for the lesser tribes? Rhinoceros, ostriches, bolo lizards maybe even, unicorns (???) I'm sure there's yet more I'm missing.

The issue with rhino at least is that unlike the other Praxian herd-beasts they're not naturally sociable, so it's hard to provide "accurate" figures.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Ladygolem said:

What numbers would you put for the lesser tribes? Rhinoceros, ostriches, bolo lizards maybe even, unicorns (???) I'm sure there's yet more I'm missing.

I have them somewhere and will find them, but generally, we have A herd of 20 cattle or 100 sheep generates the same surplus as a hide of land. So applying that, larger beasts should have smaller numbers, where smaller, have more. This is an abstract system.

1 hour ago, Ladygolem said:

The issue with rhino at least is that unlike the other Praxian herd-beasts they're not naturally sociable, so it's hard to provide "accurate" figures.

One of the important things to remember is that the Covenant changes the behaviour of the herd beasts. Praxian rhinos as a result are much more sociable than say their larger Fronelan cousins.

[Akhôrahil]

Lots of goodies to help out with this in the Weapons & Equipment book.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 12/10/2021 at 3:23 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Lots of goodies to help out with this in the Weapons & Equipment book.

Yes indeed.  That makes Horse Trainer a livable occupation.  Even if that's training time doing it one horse at a time - then eight horses per season can be trained to the "riding" standard  and price.