Are birthdays celebrated in Glorantha?

[Alex]

31 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

The gloranthan week has seven days, of which 5 are also associated with an element, the last two Wildday and Godsday are not. 

There's a fair bit of variability even within the "major" calendars -- only the Theyalan and Lunars (those tawdry Theyalan cover acts) weeks are seven days.  So unless the runic determinism thing somehow works by bloodlines, or in geographical zones, it's likely not that strong, if not to say largely a narrative device.

[AndreJarosch]

12 hours ago, Alex said:

There's a fair bit of variability even within the "major" calendars -- only the Theyalan and Lunars (those tawdry Theyalan cover acts) weeks are seven days.  So unless the runic determinism thing somehow works by bloodlines, or in geographical zones, it's likely not that strong, if not to say largely a narrative device.

It would work for the six homelands that are presented in the rulebook. 

[PhilHibbs]

On 12/2/2021 at 9:53 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

mmm what about an initiation during the play ? will you gain new rune ?

No, you discover your runes and learn how to call upon them. Whether Gloranthans already had those runes during childhood and were unable to access them, or whether they truly gained them during initiation, that would be an ecumenical matter.

So in terms of play, either:

1. Players decide during initiation what their runes should be.
2. Players decide up front, so the player knows, but the adventurers and NPCs discover it.

[narsilion]

I have a stupid beginner question. I don't want to start a new topic and this one is related, so I'm posting my question here.

It's the Gloranthan calendar.

A year has 294 days there. So an 18-year-old man has 5292 days. And this is 14.5 our years.

A 20-year-old from Glorantha is 5880 days= 16.1 our years old.

Do people grow up faster there and also age faster? Or maybe the day in Glorantha is longer than ours?

[Joerg]

6 minutes ago, narsilion said:

I have a stupid beginner question. I don't want to start a new topic and this one is related, so I'm posting my question here.

It's the Gloranthan calendar.

A year has 294 days there. So an 18-year-old man has 5292 days. And this is 14.5 our years.

A 20-year-old from Glorantha is 5880 days= 16.1 our years old.

Do people grow up faster there and also age faster? Or maybe the day in Glorantha is longer than ours?

The general agreement seems to be that a Gloranthan year is the equivalent of a terrestrial year for biological purposes. Day length, while measured in 24 hours by some, doesnt have to be the same as the terrestrial day, although it might. (It does work as a standard circadian cycle.)

YGWV - play with whatever concept gives you a narrative kick, or ignore such minor discrepancies if they don't make a fun story to explore for you and your (current) group.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, narsilion said:

Do people grow up faster there and also age faster? Or maybe the day in Glorantha is longer than ours?

Personally, I don't tend to worry about trying to align this too much, but take this approach:

• A day is a day. Call it 24 hours for convenience if you're trying to work out things like travel times, guard shifts, restoring magic points, etc.
• A week is a week. 
• Seasons generally align with our seasons: Seaseason = spring; Fireseason = summer; Earthseason = fall; Darkseason = the dark part of winter; Stormseason = what we in New England experience as the seemingly eternal period of greyness and up-and-down weather called February/March.
• A year is a year. You age at the same rate - it's just a bit more compressed (or faster aging) in Glorantha.
• However, there is one event that is distinct: pregnancy. Length of pregnancy is roughly the same. In our world = 9 months; in Glorantha = ~1 year (though magic can accelerate/decelerate the time of delivery)

 

[Cloud64]

Time can be weird in Glorantha. Let's face it, it's a relatively new thing too. The simplest thing to do is assume that year for year people in Glorantha are physically the same age as us real world humans. And keep a day 24 hrs long. I play Numenera, and that has a shorter year in days, but they have 28hrs, so the annual duration is that same as our real world year. We pretty quickly gave up on 28hr days: they become confusing because we are so hardwired to our 24hr daily cycle that thinking outside it just causes brain ache. It's pointless and adds nothing to play other than suggesting the world is a bit weird. 

Though RQG defaults to metres and kilometres, I use feet and miles for Gloranthan distances. I'm perfectly happy to work in either in real life, but to me they just don't fit in a Bronze Age setting. It could have been cubits and leagues, perhaps, but then we face the the same problem as with 28hrs days – we just don't naturally work in them, so they'd only detract from the game experience.  That said, I have overlayed a 3 mile hex grid over the Starter Set Sarter map to give an easy reference for travel times - so we are effectively working on travelling 1 league/hr <shrugs> 

 

[narsilion]

7 hours ago, Cloud64 said:

Though RQG defaults to metres and kilometres, I use feet and miles for Gloranthan distances. I'm perfectly happy to work in either in real life, but to me they just don't fit in a Bronze Age setting. It could have been cubits and leagues, perhaps, but then we face the the same problem as with 28hrs days – we just don't naturally work in them, so they'd only detract from the game experience.  That said, I have overlayed a 3 mile hex grid over the Starter Set Sarter map to give an easy reference for travel times - so we are effectively working on travelling 1 league/hr <shrugs> 

 

Being from Europe, i'd have the same issue with those obsolete measurements, as you have with numeneran 28hr day. So im sure i'll keep metric measurements, tho i know they feel very modern

[Squaredeal Sten]

It strikes me that a day in Glotrantha is 24 hours just as the sun rises in the east.

It's a definitions thing: East is defined as the direction from which the sun rises.  On earth, on Uranus with its unusual axial tilt, on planets in other solar systems, and on Glorsntha.

Similarly an hour is the time it takes for the sun to pass over one twelfth of the arc between sunrise and sunset.  That is evidently the way it was for the Mesopotamisns in the bronze age, who were the folks who originated the system of 360 degrees in a circle.  

Modern Real World definitions of time in terms of one second = a multiple  of vibration of Cesium atoms do not apply, because Glorantha is made of runes and not atoms.

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
RW. Clarifying . Cesium

[kara]

4 hours ago, narsilion said:

Being from Europe, i'd have the same issue with those obsolete measurements, as you have with numeneran 28hr day. So im sure i'll keep metric measurements, tho i know they feel very modern

I find the use of modern units of measurement so jarring that I just give estimated times for the travel between 2 points, often with how long it would take the Elmali charioteer on his horse in the middle of Fire Season and how long it will take the rest of the group actually to travel during the current season.

After all, the distance barely matters when it's how much they need to carry in provisions, which of them may have relatives near the route from whom they may claim hospitality, which clan may be hostile, etc.

 

As for birthday celebrations, not in my Glorantha. They feel too modern and too individualistic in such an ancient communal society.

[narsilion]

If I translated some old forms of my language into english, it would be for example: "They walked through two prayers", meaning: the time of their walk was similar to saying "Pater Noster" prayer twice. If there are similarly popular prayers in Glorantha, they can be conveniently inaccurate time measure 🙂

According to non SI measurements, they were wonderful mess. Now we have only two miles, land and sea mile, both parts of imperial system. But before 1800 almost every country had their own mile, pound, stone etc. And mile length varied from country to country from 0,9 to 12 km (imperial land mile is about 1,6 km). Even cities had their own measurements, usually marked on a townhall, showing a city standard for a foot, an elbow (length from the elbow to the end of your hand, commonly used to measure cloth).

I think it would be interesting to make a treasure map, give it to players. Unfortunately, it is marked in yards, but - lets say - they need the old Clearwine yard. Nowadays this measure is not used, almost everybody uses the Jonstown yard. Unfortunately, the old Clearwine town hall was destroyed 30 years ago, rebuilt without those marks, and the stones from the old town hall were sold to two different thanes, who built their houses... etc. It may take a lot of time and effort to find the treasure just becouse of old measurements 😄

Edited February 21, 2023 by narsilion

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It strikes me that a day in Glotrantha is 24 hours just as the sun rises in the east.

It's a definitions thing: East is defined as the direction from which the sun rises.  On earth, on Uranus with its unusual axial tilt, on planets in other solar systems, and on Glorsntha.

Agreed. North and South on a planet or moon are defined by its rotation, even if it is tidally locked to a bigger body like our moon is to our planet. A flat world with an overarching sun path might require different directions, like Pratchett's Diskworld rotating on the backs of four giant elephants which has Hubwards, Rimwards, Clockwise and Widdershins.

Things get strange when you should tell which direction to look for the sun at noon. Except for our antipodean friends, most of the Glorantha fans are used to find the sun in the south at noon, but in Glorantha it actually stays mainly above, like it does in our equatorial regions (which somehow have fewer Glorantha fans).

 

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Similarly an hour is the time it takes for the sun to pass over one twelfth of the arc between sunrise and sunset.  That is evidently the way it was for the Mesopotamisns in the bronze age, who were the folks who originated the system of 360 degrees in a circle.  

Having lived north of the Arctic, that summer had 12 very long hours by that definition...

You need to qualify that statement to "at the Equinoxes", especially if you have variations in day length like you have at rather high latitudes, or like you have in Glorantha where Midsummer has a 16 hour day and an 8 hour night.

 

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Modern Real World definitions of time in terms of one second = a multiple  of vibration of Cesium atoms do not apply, because Glorantha is made of runes and not atoms.

Yes, counting Cesium atom vibrations is tedious, and you quickly run out of number words and symbols. And you must remain within certain speed limits. Finding and isolating them requires some work, too - as does constructing them out of Element and Power runes.

More importantly, even though this is an integer operation, effectively you are limited to very few significant numbers when measuring things.

 

Heartbeats or breaths are a common measure, but will vary depending on agitation and exertion.

Hourglasses are known to the Brithini, demonstrating that physical experiments work in Glorantha, runic or atomic.

Water clocks (or other liquids) are feasible for measuring time. Pendulums are. A rotating device letting out steam when placed above a fire can be used to measure or record Mostali work cycles.

 

RuneQuest spirit spell duration might be a tempting gamist's measure... A Light spell will give you exactly two minutes of light, unless activation time (the strike ranks needed to finish the spell) is deducted. Except that the world doesn't know the game, and things like this might be (and should be) fuzzy. And your RQ3 Light spell will last five minutes.

[Kloster]

For me, birthdays are celebrated the last day of sacred time, when the new year begins.

 

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, narsilion said:

I think it would be interesting to make a treasure map, give it to players. Unfortunately, it is marked in yards, but - lets say - they need the old Clearwine yard. Nowadays this measure is not used, almost everybody uses the Jonstown yard. Unfortunately, the old Clearwine town hall was destroyed 30 years ago, rebuilt without those marks, and the stones from the old town hall were sold to two different thanes, who built their houses... etc. It may take a lot of time and effort to find the treasure just becouse of old measurements 😄

Consider that idea stolen.

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It strikes me that a day in Glotrantha is 24 hours just as the sun rises in the east.

...

Similarly an hour is the time it takes for the sun to pass over one twelfth of the arc between sunrise and sunset.

16 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Having lived north of the Arctic, that summer had 12 very long hours by that definition...

For Romans, the day started at sunrise, and there was 12 hours from sunrise to sunset, described by their number. Thus, summer hours were much longer than winter hours. And nights were either measured in 12 noctis hora (night hours) or (for the army) in 4 vigiliae (night watch), each made of 3 noctis hora.

[narsilion]

19 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Consider that idea stolen.

Thieves, thieves everywhere! 😄

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

 

On Glorantha tbe length of any given day is the same, North or south. 

If the length of the sun's path changes seasonally, how does that work?  I await a detailed treatise on Gloranthan Celestial mechanics.  

Regardless, a winter hour may be longer than a summer hour, as I understand it used to be in the RW.  But who has a timing device to say exactly how much longer?

And Galileo exists in the future of another world, so no one is using a pendulum to tell time.

As for water clocks. Do they exist in Glorantha?  As far as I know they are iton age in the RW, so not a default assumption.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

You need to qualify that statement to "at the Equinoxes", especially if you have variations in day length like you have at rather high latitudes, or like you have in Glorantha where Midsummer has a 16 hour day and ...

Heartbeats or breaths are a common measure, but will vary depending on agitation and exertion.

Hourglasses are known to the Brithini, demonstrating that physical experiments work in Glorantha, runic or atomic.

Water clocks (or other liquids) are feasible for measuring time. Pendulums are. A rotating device letting out steam when placed above a fire can be used to measure or record Mostali work cycles.......

[Joerg]

5 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

On Glorantha tbe length of any given day is the same, North or south. 

If the length of the sun's path changes seasonally, how does that work?  I await a detailed treatise on Gloranthan Celestial mechanics.  

While you are waiting, take a look at Nick Brooke's suggestion:

 

 

5 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Regardless, a winter hour may be longer than a summer hour, as I understand it used to be in the RW.

A sundial would show how many more or less hours a day has on our planet.

In Glorantha, you can match the movement of Lightfore (the opposite of Yelm's path) against the revolutions of Mastakos/Uleria to know about night length, and hence about day length.

 

5 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

But who has a timing device to say exactly how much longer?

Zzabur has (or at least had until the Dawn) the Red Sands of Time.

 

5 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

And Galileo exists in the future of another world, so no one is using a pendulum to tell time.

Mostal is a clockwork deity... who needs Galileo?

 

5 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

As for water clocks. Do they exist in Glorantha? 

Remembering the illustration of the Starseers in the Guide, I think a water clock would look exactly right in that kind of environment.

 

5 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

As far as I know they are iton age in the RW, so not a default assumption.

Triremes are Iron Age. Silver and gold coins are Iron Age. Stone bridges crossing rivers are Iron Age. All of these exist in canonical Glorantha. There is even at least one Aeolipile like the one built by Heron of Alexandria.

While I would have been happier with "Leonardo the Scientist" having used the name "Archimedes", the trope is the same. Stuff invented and built by Archimedes is well within the capability of artificers in Gloranthan history or present.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

38 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

A sundial would show how many more or less hours a day has on ...

A sundial will always indicate 12 hours of day because "hour" is 1/12 of the day..  The shadow of the gnomon will fall along a different line if the sunpath varies north and south.  But it will always be divided into 12 hours regardless of season, unless the maker chooses to mark it using a different system.  And on a flat world the Shadow of the gnomon will follow a straight line or a set of straight lines, not a set of seasonal curves.

[soltakss]

23 hours ago, narsilion said:

Do people grow up faster there and also age faster? Or maybe the day in Glorantha is longer than ours?

For me, a year is a year is a year.

I don't often count years in days.

23 hours ago, narsilion said:

A 20-year-old from Glorantha is 5880 days= 16.1 our years old.

So, someone who is 20 years old in Glorantha is 20 years old and looks like an 20 year old would.

23 hours ago, narsilion said:

Do people grow up faster there and also age faster? Or maybe the day in Glorantha is longer than ours?

Maybe, who knows?

I play that a Gloranthan day is 24 hours long and hours are broken down into minutes and seconds, same as in the real world, as it is easier to work with spell durations.

Is there a mismatch there? Sure, there is. Do I care about the mismatch? No, not really.

[narsilion]

21 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It's a definitions thing: East is defined as the direction from which the sun rises.  On earth, on Uranus with its unusual axial tilt, on planets in other solar systems, and on Glorantha.

 

This is a very interesting topic. Becouse on the nortern parts of Genertela, especially on eastern parts, east should be skewed towards south. And skewed towards north on the eastern parts of Pamaltela. Analogically on the west. Ergo:parallels should not be parallel at all on Glorantha 😄

Are there some significant points marking north and south? Ive seen some gods placed there on gloranthan visualisations, but i do not know who they are and what is their connection with south and north

[Squaredeal Sten]

6 hours ago, narsilion said:

This is a very interesting topic. Becouse on the nortern parts of Genertela, especially on eastern parts, east should be skewed towards south. And skewed towards north on the eastern parts of Pamaltela. Analogically on the west. Ergo:parallels should not be parallel at all on Glorantha 😄

Are there some significant points marking north and south? Ive seen some gods placed there on gloranthan visualisations, but i do not know who they are and what is their connection with south and north

If you go to  a hilltop and make a basic observatoryas follows. Placing a central stone for the observer to stand or sit on.  Placing a second stone in line with the sunrise.  Placing a third stone in line with where the sun is seen to set.

Then a line between the sunrise and sunset stones will be parallel to "true easr-west" anywhere else on Gloranths.

So the parallels of latitude will be parallel.  As Mick Brooke's disgrams (see Joerg's link sbove) illustrate the only seasonal variation in the sun path  is in altitude.  Yelm begins the day at the same point (Gates of Dawn).

By the way, the same method of finding tbe east-west line applies if you use that process on RW Earth.   Where  if you live in  the northern hemisphere above the tropics the points where the sun rises and sets will be a little southerly. You don't notice it most of the time unkess you live very far north.  But if you drive to work in early morning at the same time every day along a north-south highway you will probably notice it.

  If you live in the tropics the sun will appear to rise and set a little northerly in summer and a little southerly in winter.  In New Zealand, Australia etc. It will be northerly.

The difference between observations on Glorantha and RW Earth should be that on Gloranthe the observed rising point will not vary seasonally even though the sun's position at noon will vary seasonally.  Because the Gates of Dawn is a place that you can go to.

We need a Gloranthan astronomy thread.  This is getting off of the birthdays topic.  

Edited February 22, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Corrected to match Nick Brooke's diagrams

[Squaredeal Sten]

Spelling.  And I will come back and fix typos.I

[narsilion]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

By the way, the same applies if you use that process on RW Earth.   Where  if you live in  the northern hemisphere above the tropics the points where the sun rises and sets will be a little southerly. You don't notice it most of the time unkess you live very far north.  But if you drive to work in early morning at the same time every day along a north-south highway you will probably notice it.

If you live in the tropics the sun will appear to rise and set a little northerly in summer and a little southerly in winter.  In New Zealand, Australia etc. It will be northerly.

The difference between observations on Glorantha and RW Earth should be that on Gloranthe the observed rising point will not vary seasonally even though the sun's position at noon will vary seasonally.  Because the Gates of Dawn is a place that you can go to.

We need a Gloranthan astronomy thread.  This is getting off of the birthdays topic.  

The main difference between the Earth and Glorantha may be the rest of the sky: is it moving with the Yelm/sun, creating universal east/west? Becouse on our planet the stars are rising just like the sun and the moon, so the sun rising is not the only factor that determines east, but one of a few.

[Squaredeal Sten]

No, as far as I have ever seen it explained the rest of the sky does not move with the sun.  The sun moves beneath the sky dome.  There are illustrations in the Sourcebook and Guide, but I have not seen any single comprehensive source on Gloranthan astronomy.  Joerg did recently post links to a couple of good partial references, see above.   Also see Well of Daliath.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Joerg's links.