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Why have Hard SciFi, Space Opera and Science Fantasy?


soltakss

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Guys, guys, guys. Some of you can't let go of the genre gig. You see it bites deep into people. Once that conception exists some just can't let go and now we are talking about sub-genres??? So I take it we have hard sci-fi which is in turn split into the following: Semi-Erect, Fully Erect and John C. Holmes Erect. How is this creating any better an understanding? Ask yourself this once you have placed a text or RPG into its neat little pigeon hole marked "hard sci-fi" or just sci-fi. Other than giving you some general idea as to the content, how has the very act of doing this improved your understanding of the text or made you a better writer? I won't argue the point since its a reflective exercise.

Now dragonnewt your statement is a bit puzzling. I',m not sure what your saying here but you seem to be saying that because writers don't specifically write for a particular genre this creates new genres?And i take it you think this proliferation is bad because the genres don't have clear boundaries lines anymore?

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Now dragonnewt your statement is a bit puzzling. I',m not sure what your saying here but you seem to be saying that because writers don't specifically write for a particular genre this creates new genres?And i take it you think this proliferation is bad because the genres don't have clear boundaries lines anymore?

I was saying that if genres were statically defined, and writers stayed within a strict genre definition, other genres would not be created. Genres are an illusion, but can provide convenient single points of reference compared spelling out most of the common elements all the time.

Boundaries are an artificial reference that help define a known and agreed (or assumed) set of ideas. The exact nature of the set may vary, however, at least there are some common elements that most people will agree on, even though these change over time, culture and geography.

However, for some, these sets provide a useful reference point. Some of these set definitions may be created through marketing ploys, but others are certainly created through a need to communicate and simplify communication. When someone says "I am running a Call of Cthulhu game", you have a reasonable idea of what that game may encompass, without me having to describe every facet and concept, even though the exact nature of the individual interpretation in play may vary.

The irony is that by categorizing something, we loose flexibility is describing something (assuming no further elaboration), yet at the same time trying to ease communication. Although, another irony, where assumptions regarding a definition differ, this can also cause issues with communication.

By convention, when I say "chair", you know what I mean (dependent on culture and experience). However, it is easier for me to say "chair" as opposed to describing the structure and nature of a chair all the time.

The Master knows the utensils,

yet keeps to the block (of wood):

thus she can use all things.

Edited by dragonewt
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It is besides the point. Something is correct regardless of how the majority interpret it. Most people would claim that 2 + 3 x 5 = 25, and most people are wrong. What most people would recognize as SciFi, isn't (most "sci-fi" films and TV shows are, at best, only part time SciFi).

All campaigns/stories have a setting. That does not define the genre. Looking back at my "cure for cancer" idea ealrier, that would be set in modern day. The setting isn't defining the genre. SciFi stories can occur in any setting, provided that the story allows for the existence of science.

The reason for the confusion is because most people don't know the terms used to define/classify a genre. They see spaceships and say "sci-fi". They see someone running around with a sword and say "fantasy". Many terms, such as Horror and Terror are used interchangeably when they actually have different meanings.

I think we've established that there are no 'official' terms to classify a genre. Some things only exist because most people define them that way, and that appears to be the case for genres. This means that a 'genre' is whatever most people agree it is. I'm sorry to say, but if 'most people' have a the same idea of what a genre is - then that's probably what it is

Maybe we can write a letter to encourage the creation of the United Nations Genre Labelling, Understanding, and Education Department, or something.

Which brings us back to Simon's original question: Isn't it all Sci-Fi? Most people around here (including Shaira) seem to agree that there are different types of sci-fi. So yes, it's all sci-fi, but not all the same kind of sci-fi. So say we all (I think).

(@Dragonnewt: Well said!)

"Tell me what you found, not what you lost" Mesopotamian proverb

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I think we've established that there are no 'official' terms to classify a genre. Some things only exist because most people define them that way, and that appears to be the case for genres. This means that a 'genre' is whatever most people agree it is.

I think this is how language works.

Take the "genre Bird" and ask people what it means to them. Over here the majority describe

a creature that looks suspiciously like a sparrow. If you want them to think of something more

heroic, like a falcon or eagle, you have to use the "sub-genre Bird of Prey".

"Mind like parachute, function only when open."

(Charlie Chan)

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Well chris i think that is an excellent summary of of the issues so far. Its unfortunate we lost soltakss at some point in the process he kinda lost interest on p3 of the thread. So for his benefit I'll just state that if your going to develop a product don't worry about the genre thats a consumer perspective. Write it and let the publisher work out what it is. The other thing that some people seem a little miffed about is that the debate veered into literary aspects which is probably my fault. That aside, and this point is for people writing RPG materials, those story elements that I talked of earlier are not only relevant to just fiction writing but RPG writing as well. The integration of them will of course vary; plot of course relates to the scenarios you create, characterization to any number of aspects and scope of the setting will depend largely on your imagination and interests. Just let the elements direct where it goes. Now i've got a star wars supplement to finish.

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Guys, guys, guys. Some of you can't let go of the genre gig. You see it bites deep into people. Once that conception exists some just can't let go and now we are talking about sub-genres??? So I take it we have hard sci-fi which is in turn split into the following: Semi-Erect, Fully Erect and John C. Holmes Erect. How is this creating any better an understanding? Ask yourself this once you have placed a text or RPG into its neat little pigeon hole marked "hard sci-fi" or just sci-fi. Other than giving you some general idea as to the content, how has the very act of doing this improved your understanding of the text or made you a better writer? I won't argue the point since its a reflective exercise.

Your are correct that the genre label does not help understand or analyze the material (be it literature or gaming material - why do you make a distinction between the two kinds of creative output anyway? >:>;) ). Once I heave read the material I have the whole body of the work to judge it by - the genre label is useful before I read it, and if I want to give someone else who has not read the material yet a quick understanding of the what to expect.

I also think that genre labels are more useful for communicating what something is not rather than what something is. In my earlier example I described Hard Sci Fi and intentionally used someone describing a setting as Science Fantasy. Now if a person described something as Hard Sci Fi I would be asking myself "Ok, does he mean the same thing I do by Hard? Or is he thinking John Holmes when I all I want is some soft core?". However, if he describes something as Science Fantasy it is pretty safe to assume that it is not what I want.

Help kill a Trollkin here.

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Well rurik I'm not opposed to genre labeling it just becomes a bit of a puerile exercise. The other thing to consider is that that some people here are considering writing material and they are feeling constrained because they don't know what genre to write in or they feel that there is a thing called genre convention and they feel they need to write to that convention. Thats actually showing a real negative consequence of genre labeling as its actively misleading people into restraining or obstructing their creativity. I divide the two because RPG material is highly fragmented and its purposes and audience is widely different.

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Hi guys,

*is it safe to come back in this thread yet?* ;-D

That depends what you mean by the label 'Safe'.

Two bannings and a threadlock later we are 'safe' from infantile ridicule, but now we have to worry about Big Beetle watching over us.

[MONTY PYTHON] Help, help, I'm being oppressed! [/MONTY PYTHON]

Simon - just dropping by to agree with everyone else who's advising you to ignore the whole genre thing when you're writing. If you've got a cool idea for a game book that's going to be fun to play, go ahead and write it. Don't even *think* about genres - that's for the marketing guys later, or for if you need to punt your book to someone in a soundbite "It's a far future dying earth technofantasy setting... it's a far future transhuman hyper-advanced cyberfusion space opera... oh god just read it, pleeeeease?" ;D

Well chris i think that is an excellent summary of of the issues so far. Its unfortunate we lost soltakss at some point in the process he kinda lost interest on p3 of the thread. So for his benefit I'll just state that if your going to develop a product don't worry about the genre thats a consumer perspective. Write it and let the publisher work out what it is.

Don't listen to them Simon! Write Hard Sci-Fi. If you need any help with what that means PM me.

Help kill a Trollkin here.

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Keep in mind that SciFi isn't a genre calssifed by setting, either. You can run a SciFi adventure in modern day, or even a historical setting. For example, imagine if the Romans had traded with the Chinese and discovered gunpower.

In your example, (which few people would recognize as sci-fi by the way, though that's beside the point) you are still establishing the genre by defining the setting. You are establishing the rules of the game world: just like ancient Rome, but with gunpowder. That's setting.

It is besides the point. Something is correct regardless of how the majority interpret it. Most people would claim that 2 + 3 x 5 = 25, and most people are wrong. What most people would recognize as SciFi, isn't (most "sci-fi" films and TV shows are, at best, only part time SciFi).

The reason for the confusion is because most people don't know the terms used to define/classify a genre. They see spaceships and say "sci-fi". They see someone running around with a sword and say "fantasy". Many terms, such as Horror and Terror are used interchangeably when they actually have different meanings.

I think we've established that there are no 'official' terms to classify a genre. Some things only exist because most people define them that way, and that appears to be the case for genres. This means that a 'genre' is whatever most people agree it is. I'm sorry to say, but if 'most people' have a the same idea of what a genre is - then that's probably what it is

I gotta come down on Thalaba's side. The point behind Genre Labels is shared understanding. They are only useful as far as most people have a similiar understanding of what they mean. If 90% of the people at a gaming/comic/manga/trek/b5 convention think sci fi means something, I gotta say that they are 'right'. Lanuage evolves from common usage. 'Google' is now an official verb, 10 years ago it wasn't, but since everyone used it as one they put it in the Oxford English Dictionary and now it is.

Personally, I'd call your example Alternate History, but not science fiction. I never really considered Steampunk as Science Fiction, though it is obviously closely related.

Help kill a Trollkin here.

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Well rurik I'm not opposed to genre labeling it just becomes a bit of a puerile exercise. The other thing to consider is that that some people here are considering writing material and they are feeling constrained because they don't know what genre to write in or they feel that there is a thing called genre convention and they feel they need to write to that convention. Thats actually showing a real negative consequence of genre labeling as its actively misleading people into restraining or obstructing their creativity. I divide the two because RPG material is highly fragmented and its purposes and audience is widely different.

I would argue that the on this board, the audience for Literature in the Sci Fi/Fantasy vein and Gaming Material are very much the same. We know that everyone on here is a gamer, and I suspect most of them read Fantasy and/or Science Fiction.

Labelling is a form of categorization. Almost everyone agrees some categorization is useful. What is subjective is the amount of categorization needed. You find it useful to distinguish Literature and Gaming Material (and it is). Without any labeling all we would have is 'Artistic Expression'; Writing, painting, music, sculpture, gaming, etc, all would be lumped together. Now breaking something down into 'Near Future with an Alternate Recent History Transhuman Politically Right Military Hard Science Fiction Gaming' is probally going too Far (though I'm sure there is someone out there who be like "Hell Yeah, that's what I'm talking about baby - where do I pre order!).

Don't take any of this wrong - I'm not attacking your views and they are well thought out and conveyed and respectful. This is all in the spirit of healty discussion and I wouldn't want you take it any other way.

Also, is that Star Wars supplement going to be Hard Sci Fi? ;)

Help kill a Trollkin here.

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I gotta come down on Thalaba's side. The point behind Genre Labels is shared understanding. They are only useful as far as most people have a similiar understanding of what they mean. If 90% of the people at a gaming/comic/manga/trek/b5 convention think sci fi means something, I gotta say that they are 'right'. .

There was a time when 90% of the people thought the world was flat. That didn't mean that it was.

One big problem I have with "majority decision" s that in our modern, highly specialized society, the majority of people lack sufficient knowledge of the subject matter (practically any subject matter) to make a correct decision.

In my field, if we were to go with what 90% of the people at a assembly plant believe, any and all electrical problems are "shorts".

Or, hitting on something we all should be able to graspe, D&D must be a better game than BRP, since the majority of RPG players believe so.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Nobody said that the 90% rule applied to all things. But it does apply to things like genres, language (as Rust pointed out), fashion, which stars are sexy, which figure skaters are the best, and which jokes are funny, and which anything is more popular.

And that's the first time I've ever seriously seen someone try to equate RPGs with rocket science. ;)

And there was a time when 90% of the people believed that 90% of the people once believed the world was flat! But nobody believes that anymore!

Edited by Thalaba

"Tell me what you found, not what you lost" Mesopotamian proverb

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Nobody said that the 90% rule applied to all things. But it does apply to things like genres, language (as Rust pointed out), fashion, which stars are sexy, which figure skaters are the best, and which jokes are funny, and which anything is more popular.

Not necessarily. For example, for years most people (and many reviewers) would classify the film Hilander as a Time Travel story. Just because those people didn't understand what a flashback is, doesn't mean that the story should be reclassified as something it isn't.

And that's the first time I've ever seriously seen someone try to equate RPGs with rocket science. ;)

Why not? They both have a lot in common, including the lack on constants, and how previous experience affects future performance. The problem with multiple skill rolls is precisely the problem that exists with multistage rockets, too. ;D

And there was a time when 90% of the people believed that 90% of the people once believed the world was flat! But nobody believes that anymore!

Whick does not change the fact that the woruld wan not flat depite what the majority believed.

Most categories are not created and defined by a majority, but by a active minority. In RPGs in particular, it is usually an active minority of fans who keep a product line alive (D&D excepted). So any product needs to find (not necessarily target, just find) its own niche.

But I think we have irreconcilable points of view on this topic. No harm done. We just disagree.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Two bannings and a threadlock later we are 'safe' from infantile ridicule, but now we have to worry about Big Beetle watching over us.

Actually, it was only the Smallpokss profile that has been banned, so Conrad will be back to deliver infantile ridicule. The threadlock was removed a couple of days ago, as the locked thread icon gnarred on my senses, but by then the thread had cooled down. This is not to say that the Big Beetle isn't allways watching though... Look around you. See any beetles? YES? Sent by the Big Beetle.:b1: NO? They're watching you from hiding...:b2:

Click-click-click!

Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub!
b1.gif 116/420. High Priest.

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I don't think the threadlock was needed. the thread never really got heated. There were a couple misunderstandings over the use of mild profanity, but for the most part that settled down once that was cleared up. B-)

Conrad might have gotten a bit carried away, but it wasn't like there were massive flame wars going on. Most of us have learned to disagree peacefully a long time ago. (A good thing too, considering how often everybody else is wrong around here! ;):P;D)

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Actually guys i think this forum needs a bit of passion. Its been how many years since we cracked the last record of 171. Really if people want to flame I reckon that we should sometimes let them go for it. Thanks for your "concern" Rurik over the "genre integrity" of the star wars supplement I have been waiting for someone to make a wise crack about that for some days and you finally delivered;)

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I don't think the threadlock was needed. the thread never really got heated. There were a couple misunderstandings over the use of mild profanity, but for the most part that settled down once that was cleared up. B-)

I agree. B-)

Conrad might have gotten a bit carried away, but it wasn't like there were massive flame wars going on. Most of us have learned to disagree peacefully a long time ago. (A good thing too, considering how often everybody else is wrong around here! ;):P;D)

Actually guys i think this forum needs a bit of passion. Its been how many years since we cracked the last record of 171. Really if people want to flame I reckon that we should sometimes let them go for it.

I don't really mind some flaming, but while the second profile did draw a smile from me, more direct flamewars are my preference. No one is allowed to have more than one profile. Except me, who has three!!! >:>

SGL.

Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub!
b1.gif 116/420. High Priest.

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I agree. B-)

I don't really mind some flaming, but while the second profile did draw a smile from me, more direct flamewars are my preference. No one is allowed to have more than one profile. Except me, who has three!!! >:>

SGL.

But I got two! Even in Mister Apoc was just a temp thing. Not that I used it as a secret ID or anything. And that was by request in order to save the Earth from immanent destruction.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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But I got two! Even in Mister Apoc was just a temp thing. Not that I used it as a secret ID or anything. And that was by request in order to save the Earth from immanent destruction.

The earth was saved, but we lost two weeks of posts! =|

SGL.

Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub!
b1.gif 116/420. High Priest.

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Whick does not change the fact that the woruld wan not flat depite what the majority believed.

Luckily you don't need to spell 90% of the words right for 90% of the people to still understand what you're trying to say! ;D

"Tell me what you found, not what you lost" Mesopotamian proverb

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Its unfortunate we lost soltakss at some point in the process he kinda lost interest on p3 of the thread.

I've been busy at work, with no time to post, and haven't turned on the PC at home, until now ...

So for his benefit I'll just state that if your going to develop a product don't worry about the genre thats a consumer perspective. Write it and let the publisher work out what it is. The other thing that some people seem a little miffed about is that the debate veered into literary aspects which is probably my fault. That aside, and this point is for people writing RPG materials, those story elements that I talked of earlier are not only relevant to just fiction writing but RPG writing as well. The integration of them will of course vary; plot of course relates to the scenarios you create, characterization to any number of aspects and scope of the setting will depend largely on your imagination and interests. Just let the elements direct where it goes. Now i've got a star wars supplement to finish.

That's the thing, if a SciFi supplement contains elements of multiple genres then I'd say it was generic, or just SciFi. So, a supplement based two hundred years after an alien invasion of the Earth, culminating in the driving out of the aliens and the eventual emergence into space using captured alien ships and the subsequent exploration of space would Space Opera. But, cybernetic implants gives it a cyberpunk flavour, especially in the final years of the rebellion.

Hence the original question. I suppose that writing something and letting other people decide what it is would probably be the best option.

Don't listen to them Simon! Write Hard Sci-Fi. If you need any help with what that means PM me.

I'd prefer Easy SciFi, but there you go.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. 

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Luckily you don't need to spell 90% of the words right for 90% of the people to still understand what you're trying to say! ;D

So that's what the flashing red light on my keyboard means! :o

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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  • 7 months later...

Two bannings and a threadlock later we are 'safe' from infantile ridicule, but now we have to worry about Big Beetle watching over us.

Infantile ridicule? And I suppose that when your boyfriend calls someones' actions "anal" that isn't being infantile?:-/

http://www.basicrps.com/core/BRP_quick_start.pdf A sense of humour and an imagination go a long way in roleplaying. ;)
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