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Trifletraxor

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There are all kinds of effective attacks (in that they have a fair chance to disable someone under the right circumstances) that are generally crappy at penetrating armor; a fencing sword is not particularly easy to dodge, but its hardly high damage, for example.

I don't think BRP makes that distinction though. That's a separate issue - but if you wanted it, maybe rapiers etc could be house-ruled as 'difficult' (i.e. half-chance) to dodge?

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I don't think BRP makes that distinction though. That's a separate issue - but if you wanted it, maybe rapiers etc could be house-ruled as 'difficult' (i.e. half-chance) to dodge?

But they kind of do, in terms of giving such weapons low base damage but robust specials.

The point is the capacity for damage and the easy of avoidance don't really relate directly. A maul or a greataxe are going to make a horrible mess of you if they hit, but they're, if anything, easier to dodge than a dagger. I

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The point is the capacity for damage and the easy of avoidance don't really relate directly. A maul or a greataxe are going to make a horrible mess of you if they hit, but they're, if anything, easier to dodge than a dagger. I

Is it? Why? The axe has more reach! Would you prefer to face someone with a fireaxe or a knife?

"It seems I'm destined not to move ahead in time faster than my usual rate of one second per second"

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Is it? Why? The axe has more reach! Would you prefer to face someone with a fireaxe or a knife?

A fire axe - it's bigger and heavier, so it's MUCH, MUCH easier to predict where it is going. And once the wielder has committed to a particular move it's MUCH, MUCH harder for them to change it significantly, as the weapon has so much momentum. Knives are terrifying - they move incredibly fast, making them far harder to predict. Sure, iff a fire axe or maul connects it'll do a lot of damage, but connecting with a large heavy weapon is much harder than with a small, agile weapon. Which is why pre-firearm infantry favoured spears and spear-like weapons - they have reach, but are generally more agile.

Given a preference, I'd have a 15th century English Bill-hook as my weapon of choice, but that's personal preference...

:D

Nick

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Would you prefer to face someone with a fireaxe or a knife?

As long as I can move unhindered by heavy armour or anything else, I will take the guy with

the fireaxe - if I can avoid his first attempt to hit me, he is out of the game, because I can

do a lot of nasty things to him before he can get his weapon ready for a second attempt. The

knife fighter would be a far more dangerous enemy, he can move as fast as I can, and his

attacks are far more unpredictable.

"Mind like parachute, function only when open."

(Charlie Chan)

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A fire axe - it's bigger and heavier, so it's MUCH, MUCH easier to predict where it is going. And once the wielder has committed to a particular move it's MUCH, MUCH harder for them to change it significantly, as the weapon has so much momentum. Knives are terrifying - they move incredibly fast, making them far harder to predict. Sure, iff a fire axe or maul connects it'll do a lot of damage, but connecting with a large heavy weapon is much harder than with a small, agile weapon. Which is why pre-firearm infantry favoured spears and spear-like weapons - they have reach, but are generally more agile.

Given a preference, I'd have a 15th century English Bill-hook as my weapon of choice, but that's personal preference...

:D

Nick

Well, a fire ax was a poor choice, scrap that, make it a battle ax:

Not so easy to dodge anymore huh?

As long as I can move unhindered by heavy armour or anything else, I will take the guy with

the fireaxe - if I can avoid his first attempt to hit me, he is out of the game, because I can

do a lot of nasty things to him before he can get his weapon ready for a second attempt. The

knife fighter would be a far more dangerous enemy, he can move as fast as I can, and his

attacks are far more unpredictable.

I scrapped the "dodge" skill. Now it's just unarmed combat (you do attack, parry and dodge with that). The catch is, it's DIFFICULT (1/2 skill!) to dodge someone who's armed when you are not!

We actually try that with friends when we meet for martial arts training, we got people from all martial arts, (karate, sanshou, kickboxing, judo, ju-jitsu, taekwondo, box, muay thai), and the guy with the plastic knife and no weapon-specific training (whomever picks it up) has about a 85-90% kill rate (unless you run away or manage to grapple him, you are preety much dead).

I figure someone that doesn't actually know how to fight would fare even worse!!! My assumption is that

a) you stay and fight (not run away, that's another kind of contest!)

B) you have a weapon (otherwise you would end up rushed and bleeding on the ground, weapon vs unarmed is almost in the automatic success area)

Im actually off to meet the guys now, ill see if i can film some plastic bottle vs unarmed action :)

PS: Im pretty sure a kali/kendo/fencing or even aikido/sca guy would do better, but we don't have any of those

Edited by icebrand

"It seems I'm destined not to move ahead in time faster than my usual rate of one second per second"

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Well, a fire ax was a poor choice, scrap that, make it a battle ax:

Not so easy to dodge anymore huh?

THATS... (oops)... Thats 2h Axe vs 2h Axe. If one of the combatants were armed with a 2h sword or spear, that combat would have probably been a lot shorter, as they are much more nimble weapons than the axe. For the sword, do not think of large roundhouse "Conan" type swings.

Also, I'm not so sure those SCA axes have the same momentum to overcome when recovering.

I scrapped the "dodge" skill. Now it's just unarmed combat (you do attack, parry and dodge with that). The catch is, it's DIFFICULT (1/2 skill!) to dodge someone who's armed when you are not!

Thats a bit extreme I think. If you are going to impose a penalty, it should be based on the weapon. As stated above, its much easier to dodge a heavy slow weapon like a long axe or mace/maul than it is a more nimble weapon like a spear, sword, or dagger.

We actually try that with friends when we meet for martial arts training, we got people from all martial arts, (karate, sanshou, kickboxing, judo, ju-jitsu, taekwondo, box, muay thai), and the guy with the plastic knife and no weapon-specific training (whomever picks it up) has about a 85-90% kill rate (unless you run away or manage to grapple him, you are preety much dead).

Yes! As stated, something nimble is much harder to dodge than something that imparts more directional momentum. I would also have to guess that in these sparring matches that because their physical being is not in danger that your opponents are not being quite as defensive as they would be if the weapon was a real knife or dagger.

I figure someone that doesn't actually know how to fight would fare even worse!!! My assumption is that

a) you stay and fight (not run away, that's another kind of contest!)

B) you have a weapon (otherwise you would end up rushed and bleeding on the ground, weapon vs unarmed is almost in the automatic success area)

Correct. If you are not trained at all you would be at a severe disadvantage, and running would be your best bet. But, by combining it into an Unarmed Combat skill you are saying that someone who is good at dodging is automatically going to be good at hitting and kicking and grappling. Avoidance is taught separately, or is picked up as part of life.

SDLeary

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We actually try that with friends when we meet for martial arts training, we got people from all martial arts, (karate, sanshou, kickboxing, judo, ju-jitsu, taekwondo, box, muay thai), and the guy with the plastic knife and no weapon-specific training (whomever picks it up) has about a 85-90% kill rate (unless you run away or manage to grapple him, you are preety much dead).

There is a huge difference between martial arts sports and unarmed combat. Put the guy

with the knife against people who learned unarmed combat with the police or the military,

and his success rate will go down considerably - probably to zero if he faces an unarmed

combat trainer of police or military.

By the way, it is very similar with fencing weapons. Even an excellent sports fencer has hard-

ly any chance against an opponent who trained combat oriented fencing, because the sport

uses and allows only a very limited selection of all the possible maneuvers. An extreme exam-

ple is sabre fencing, where the sports rules disallow more than half of the possible attacks.

"Mind like parachute, function only when open."

(Charlie Chan)

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There is a huge difference between martial arts sports and unarmed combat. Put the guy

with the knife against people who learned unarmed combat with the police or the military,

and his success rate will go down considerably

Police or military training won't make you an expert knife-disarmer. By a long shot.

They will however train you in in picking up whatever object within reach to use as an improvised weapon. At least the good instructors will do that..

Halving dodge if you're unarmed(at least if you want to try a counter-attack of your own) makes sense. A bit on the harsh side, yes, but it makes sense.

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Police or military training won't make you an expert knife-disarmer.

As a relative of mine, who was an army unarmed combat trainer, once remarked in a similar

discussion, one does not have to disarm the guy with the knife, only to kill him ...>:>

"Mind like parachute, function only when open."

(Charlie Chan)

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THATS... (oops)... Thats 2h Axe vs 2h Axe. If one of the combatants were armed with a 2h sword or spear, that combat would have probably been a lot shorter, as they are much more nimble weapons than the axe. For the sword, do not think of large roundhouse "Conan" type swings.

But the axe was a very popular battle weapon; i doubt a spear or sword would be much better, otherwise noone would have used axes!!!

Thats a bit extreme I think. If you are going to impose a penalty, it should be based on the weapon. As stated above, its much easier to dodge a heavy slow weapon like a long axe or mace/maul than it is a more nimble weapon like a spear, sword, or dagger.

The problem is, i disagree with that. If you see spear fighting forms or fencing, they are not "slower" than a knife in any way, and actually have much more reach! And people actually prefer those (sword, axes, spears) to knives, so they must have a reason!!!

There is a huge difference between martial arts sports and unarmed combat. Put the guy with the knife against people who learned unarmed combat with the police or the military,and his success rate will go down considerably - probably to zero if he faces an unarmed combat trainer of police or military.

Well, one of us is 3rd dan karate instructor and police officer. I also happen to train with several (three last year, one this year, but hes away atm cause he broke his shoulder) leos, and they are not better than regular judoka at all.

By the way, it is very similar with fencing weapons. Even an excellent sports fencer has hardly any chance against an opponent who trained combat oriented fencing, because the sport uses and allows only a very limited selection of all the possible maneuvers. An extreme example is sabre fencing, where the sports rules disallow more than half of the possible attacks.

Do you have a source for those claims? In my experience, the high physical conditioning and excellent reflexes of an elite athete usually win against "more maneuvers". Also, they get a lot of experience in competition (something that "combat oriented folks" do not). Usually a few mastered techniques used and proven time over time, under competition stress and full resisting oposition work better than the other stuff.

I really don't picture a world-class fencer getting beat up by an sca guy because he cant hit certain spots!

"It seems I'm destined not to move ahead in time faster than my usual rate of one second per second"

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But the axe was a very popular battle weapon; i doubt a spear or sword would be much better, otherwise noone would have used axes!!!

The axe was popular because it was relatively easy to make and generally (but not always) used less metal in its manufacture, making it much less expensive than a sword.

The problem is, i disagree with that. If you see spear fighting forms or fencing, they are not "slower" than a knife in any way, and actually have much more reach! And people actually prefer those (sword, axes, spears) to knives, so they must have a reason!!!

I did not say that spear or sword was "slower" than a knife. I did say that long axes and maces/mauls were less "nimble" than swords, spears, and knives/daggers. The video that you provided the link to had people fighting with representations of Great/Danish long axes. This is a type of weapon that would have generally been used over the heads of the front rank of a shield wall to chop down on an enemy, or to hook and pull the enemies shield away so someone in the front rank could get to him, or alternately as a fear weapon once the other sides shield wall had broken.

Note that the disadvantages of this type of weapon do not necessarily translate to a smaller single handed axe (depending on head weight).

I really don't picture a world-class fencer getting beat up by an sca guy because he cant hit certain spots!

Neither do I, but I do see the fencer getting his ass handed to him by an actual combat swordsman, or perhaps even an ARMA member.

SDLeary

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The axe was popular because it was relatively easy to make and generally (but not always) used less metal in its manufacture, making it much less expensive than a sword.

So, an axe wielder has a penalty against someone with sword and spear? -10%? -20%? What about maces?

"It seems I'm destined not to move ahead in time faster than my usual rate of one second per second"

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Is it? Why? The axe has more reach! Would you prefer to face someone with a fireaxe or a knife?

The knife, but not because I expect the axe to be more likely to hit; its because I may well survive a single knife wound more likely than the wound from the axe.

But if you're asking me which one I expect to have a better chance to avoid, its the axe hands down. The reach isn't long enough to be relevant, and the recovery and retarget times are immensely better with the knife. Once the axe misses me once there's a very good chance I can close up inside his ability to do anything further. I can't say that about the knife.

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But the axe was a very popular battle weapon; i doubt a spear or sword would be much better, otherwise noone would have used axes!!!

Axes get good penetration and do a lot of damage. That's all the reason you need for their historical success right there (the fact they're relatively easy to make compared to any decent kind of slashing sword doesn't hurt).

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Do you have a source for those claims? In my experience, the high physical conditioning and excellent reflexes of an elite athete usually win against "more maneuvers". Also, they get a lot of experience in competition (something that "combat oriented folks" do not). Usually a few mastered techniques used and proven time over time, under competition stress and full resisting oposition work better than the other stuff.

The source I can offer is personal experience with rapier fencing. To give an example, a sport

sabre fencer is not allowed by the rules of his sport to aim for the legs, and so he never learns

or trains to defend his legs against attacks. His rules also do not allow him to move more than

a step or two sideways, because he must not leave the fencing lane, so he also never learns or

trains to defend against an opponent circling him. And so on and on - a long list of vulnerabili-

ties that are easy to exploit.

"Mind like parachute, function only when open."

(Charlie Chan)

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Can you use thumbs in fencing? ;t)

In combat fencing you can. >:>

In fact, you can use the entire arsenal of dirty tricks a sport fencer would never think of, just take a look at this one:

"Mind like parachute, function only when open."

(Charlie Chan)

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That's the key, of course; if you're trained in only the specific sports techniques, they effectively train you away from a number of effective combat techniques.

That said, for anyone who's interested, its still entirely possible to train in such a fashion as to avoid this problem, you just have to actively seek out teachers who train in more traditional and practical versions. This is usually easier with unarmed techniques than armed, but you can do it with either.

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That's the key, of course; if you're trained in only the specific sports techniques, they effectively train you away from a number of effective combat techniques.

Indeed. We had someone who was a truly excellent foil fencer and who wanted to try the ra-

pier, too. His main problem was that in foil fencing a slash is not counted as a score, and that

he therefore tended to ignore slashing attacks instead of defending against them. And while a

rapier is primarily a thrusting weapon like the foil, it still has an edge, and a rapier slash to the

face or the back of the hand is a most unpleasant experience.

"Mind like parachute, function only when open."

(Charlie Chan)

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You also get people to learn really bad habits that work because of the general rules of such things. When I used to foil fence, there was a guy who used to get inside my reach since you couldn't use anything but the tip of the foil. This irritated me considerably because it was so much gaming the process. Enough that at one point I "accidentally" smashed him the mask with the bell of the foil while backing up.

He didn't do it again to me.

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You also get people to learn really bad habits that work because of the general rules of such things. When I used to foil fence, there was a guy who used to get inside my reach since you couldn't use anything but the tip of the foil. This irritated me considerably because it was so much gaming the process. Enough that at one point I "accidentally" smashed him the mask with the bell of the foil while backing up.

He didn't do it again to me.

Poor sporting technique.....but a perfectly valid combat technique. if he'd of been a knifeman who'd be talking to us today ?

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The source I can offer is personal experience with rapier fencing. To give an example, a sport

sabre fencer is not allowed by the rules of his sport to aim for the legs, and so he never learns

or trains to defend his legs against attacks. His rules also do not allow him to move more than

a step or two sideways, because he must not leave the fencing lane, so he also never learns or

trains to defend against an opponent circling him. And so on and on - a long list of vulnerabili-

ties that are easy to exploit.

I7ll chime in to support this. Most martial arts's I7ve seen mention that someone who is well trained in basic techniques will overcome an opponent who is poorly trained in many techniques, even if they are advanced ones. That is why the stress the basics.

In fact, this holds true for most walks of life. Typically a poor grap of the basics tends to lead to a critical vulnerability that can be easily exploited. For example, it doesn't matter if you are the worlds best nuerosugeon if you don7t follow basic sterlizxation techniques.It just means you patients die from complications after a successful operation.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Poor sporting technique.....but a perfectly valid combat technique. if he'd of been a knifeman who'd be talking to us today ?

Yep, that's one reason why rapier fencers usually have a dagger in their left hand, once one

gets past the long rapier it is time for dagger work ... >:>

"Mind like parachute, function only when open."

(Charlie Chan)

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