Rune Spell "Hallucinate"

[Alex]

15m isn't likely to be enough to get you (naturally) healed, but if it's long enough to get you to a nearby healer, that's a good day's triage work...

[Dragon]

48 minutes ago, Alex said:

That's an interesting one!  I wonder if that might be running into the limits, not so much of Hallucination itself, but of Illusory Substance itself.  Does it counter the venom temporarily, re-poisoning you when the magic expires?

Yeah, that does call into some limits. We could say a vial of POT 20 anti-venom would only be at most 1 ENC. And 1 ENC is smaller than one size, hence it would not exceed the limits of Illusory Substance.

However, that makes for some very dangerous corollaries. A vial of POT 20 blade venom would also fall in that category. Or worse, POT 20 acid vial. As a GM, that is play-balance gone all wrong. I don't want to see the party Eurmali tossing Illusory POT 20 acid vials for a single RP. Worse, they aren't even visible unless you add Illusory Sight. A slightly smarter Eurmali would cast 1 RP for a bag of vials, getting at least a half dozen.

Now, the spell gives a sword as an example, and says you could hit someone with it. So imagine an Eurmali who gets into the grand ball where everyone had to check weapons. He has 90 Skill in Great Sword, casts Illusory Substance and now has a great sword. But also remember that he cast no Illusory Sight, so he can feel it in his hands and use it, but no one can see it. The victims will have some negatives on their dodge at the very least. And that is clearly allowed.

So, I would probably say the Eurmali needs some serious Skill in Alchemy to be able to replicate anti-venom, venom, or acid in an illusion. The great sword though, should be allowed as is, even as dangerous as it would be.

 

[Alex]

8 minutes ago, Dragon said:

However, that makes for some very dangerous corollaries. A vial of POT 20 blade venom would also fall in that category. Or worse, POT 20 acid vial. As a GM, that is play-balance gone all wrong. I don't want to see the party Eurmali tossing Illusory POT 20 acid vials for a single RP. Worse, they aren't even visible unless you add Illusory Sight. A slightly smarter Eurmali would cast 1 RP for a bag of vials, getting at least a half dozen.

Not an issue that one with Hallucinate.  Well, other than in the sense of the Trickster having violent fantasies of mass deaths. which is a pretty ordinary day's work for 'em.

8 minutes ago, Dragon said:

Now, the spell gives a sword as an example, and says you could hit someone with it. So imagine an Eurmali who gets into the grand ball where everyone had to check weapons. He has 90 Skill in Great Sword, casts Illusory Substance and now has a great sword. But also remember that he cast no Illusory Sight, so he can feel it in his hands and use it, but no one can see it. The victims will have some negatives on their dodge at the very least. And that is clearly allowed.

Huh, hadn't consider Substance and only Substance.  I think at a bare minimum you also need Motion -- unless you're using it for the final scene of Julius Caesar, with people eagerly impaling themselves on the sword.  You also need rather of lot of RPP to do Greatsword-like damage.

Does seem slightly perverse that an invisible illusionary weapon is easier and cheaper to create than a visible one, but if any deity deserves 'perverse'...

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, Dragon said:

Yeah, that does call into some limits. We could say a vial of POT 20 anti-venom would only be at most 1 ENC. And 1 ENC is smaller than one size, hence it would not exceed the limits of Illusory Substance.

However, that makes for some very dangerous corollaries. A vial of POT 20 blade venom would also fall in that category. Or worse, POT 20 acid vial. As a GM, that is play-balance gone all wrong. I don't want to see the party Eurmali tossing Illusory POT 20 acid vials for a single RP. Worse, they aren't even visible unless you add Illusory Sight. A slightly smarter Eurmali would cast 1 RP for a bag of vials, getting at least a half dozen.

Now, the spell gives a sword as an example, and says you could hit someone with it. So imagine an Eurmali who gets into the grand ball where everyone had to check weapons. He has 90 Skill in Great Sword, casts Illusory Substance and now has a great sword. But also remember that he cast no Illusory Sight, so he can feel it in his hands and use it, but no one can see it. The victims will have some negatives on their dodge at the very least. And that is clearly allowed.

So, I would probably say the Eurmali needs some serious Skill in Alchemy to be able to replicate anti-venom, venom, or acid in an illusion. The great sword though, should be allowed as is, even as dangerous as it would be.

Note that there are rules (under Taste) for the POT of an illusionary poison. I can completely support that your illusory antivenom becomes restricted by how many points of the Hallucinate you put into it. But since you get 12 points per Rune Point, you have a lot to spend.

[Akhôrahil]

There may be situations where it’s useful that your Hallucination cannot move unless you do it deliberately. A ladder can point straight upwards without support, for instance. You can hang things in the air.

[David Scott]

On 1/15/2022 at 10:26 AM, Akhôrahil said:

I would also totally allow an item (or perhaps a drug?) that lets the wearer (user) share the trickster’s hallucinations.

That's what the normal illusion spells are for.

[David Scott]

How have people handled Hallucinate in their games? How many have had a Eurmal Truant in their game? (I've only one had adventurer learn a Eurmal spell (Charisma) at the local Eurmal Lightbringer shrine in the Lightbringer temple in Clearwine).

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

That's what the normal illusion spells are for.

I was thinking of sharing it with only one or a couple of people.

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

How have people handled Hallucinate in their games? How many have had a Eurmal Truant in their game? (I've only one had adventurer learn a Eurmal spell (Charisma) at the local Eurmal Lightbringer shrine in the Lightbringer temple in Clearwine).

Nobody in my games has wanted to play an Eurmali, in nearly 40 years of Gloranthan RuneQuest.

[jajagappa]

12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I don’t think the guard works, as he will have to interact with the door and not just with you. The rest should be fine.

If you want to hallucinate the illusionary friendly guard waiting by the illusionary door, so they can open it for you, then I think it still works within the context of the hallucination.

12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think you could cure yourself using hallucinary anti-venom? You can definitely heat yourself by a hallucinary fire.

Of course!  Perfectly reasonable to hallucinate the vial of anti-venom, and drink it down to save you.  And while no one else can see it, I'd allow the trickster who does to pour it down someone else's throat to save them.

[Kloster]

15 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Nobody in my games has wanted to play an Eurmali, in nearly 40 years of Gloranthan RuneQuest.

Same for me. We had humans, ducks, trolls and 1 dwarf. We had characters from Prax, Sartar, Heortland, Lunar Empire, Esrolia and 1 Kralorelan. We had a whole bunch of Cults, but no Eurmali.

[Dragon]

10 hours ago, Alex said:

Huh, hadn't consider Substance and only Substance.  I think at a bare minimum you also need Motion -- unless you're using it for the final scene of Julius Caesar, with people eagerly impaling themselves on the sword.  You also need rather of lot of RPP to do Greatsword-like damage.

Yes, I did go a touch off topic of Hallucinations to other illusions used as the base.

I understand where you are going with that, but that is not the interpretation that I get from the two Illusory spells (Motion and Substance). Keep in mind Substance allows 1 SIZ, stated as 5 kg, and a Great Sword is really just under 4 kg (generally between 8 lb and 8lb 8 oz from history). Clearly within 1 RP of Substance. 

From Illusory Substance (RBM):

"For an illusion with substance to do damage the target must either strike themselves with the illusion (such as walking into an illusionary fire), be hit with the illusion (such as being hit with an illusory sword), or Illusory Motion must be combined with the substance to give the caster fine control. The illusion does damage equivalent to the item (and size) of the subject of the illusion."

Hence, if I make an illusory sword (specific statement) I can wield it myself (second example in the first quoted sentence). Otherwise that 'or' before the third clause makes no sense. If I add Illusory Motion, I can make the sword float out and attack other people without me wielding it in my hands. The Motion makes it so people don't know its me (well I would be incarnating Eurmal at the time, but unless Soul Sight or something similar was cast, the observers don't really connect that to how that guy's leg was just chopped off). (Now, if I make a floating sword of Substance/Motion and I cannot even see it, that would make aiming it much harder - so a little Illusory Sight would make sense in real combat.) Note: If I wield it myself, it uses my skill. If I wield it via Motion, it uses DEX x3. The first is the implication from "be hit with the illusion" and the latter specifically written in Illusory Motion.

And the last sentence clearly states I can do great sword like damage within 1 SIZ hence 1 RP.

Now, I completely understand why you may use caution for an Illusory Substance Great Sword hitting people for 2d8+DB when they cannot even see the thing. But that is clearly how the RAW state it, given what I just quoted and the minor calculation.

This all does bear on Hallucination, as I wondered what would happen if I parried with the Hallucination of a great sword. Would it protect me? I feel it would. And it would  totally confuse the attacker. The Hallucination of a great sword could not damage that opponent, but it could save me. YGMV.

 

[Dragon]

10 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Same for me. We had humans, ducks, trolls and 1 dwarf. We had characters from Prax, Sartar, Heortland, Lunar Empire, Esrolia and 1 Kralorelan. We had a whole bunch of Cults, but no Eurmali.

I have had two Eurmalis in different groups where no player from one group was a player in the other.

[HreshtIronBorne]

6 minutes ago, Dragon said:

Now, I completely understand why you may use caution for an Illusory Substance Great Sword hitting people for 2d8+DB when they cannot even see the thing. But that is clearly how the RAW state it, given what I just quoted and the minor calculation.

An illusion with substance can do damage. One point of substance can do 1D3 points of damage; 2 points can do 1D6 points of damage; and 4 can do 2D6. Each additional 2 points does a further 1D6 damage.

Pg. 332 Core Rules

To do close to greatsword damage of 2d8 you'd need at least a 4 Point Illusory Substance, no matter how big or small your invisible weapon is. Heck, you could make it an invisible pike and poke people with it from 10 feet away for 6 points and it would do 3d6 damage. Almost as good as an actual weapon!

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Nobody in my games has wanted to play an Eurmali, in nearly 40 years of Gloranthan RuneQuest.

Gotta say though, Hallucinate is one heck of an incentive! As is Lie.

[Alex]

1 hour ago, Dragon said:

"For an illusion with substance to do damage the target must either strike themselves with the illusion (such as walking into an illusionary fire), be hit with the illusion (such as being hit with an illusory sword), or Illusory Motion must be combined with the substance to give the caster fine control. The illusion does damage equivalent to the item (and size) of the subject of the illusion."

Ah, my bad, I was going by the RQGCB text, which omits the second clause.  As you were on that on any need for "Motion".

But main perplexity is the "invisibility is cheap, visibility is extra" thing, which sounds like the exact opposite of past statements about how illusions works in Glorantha.  So for my money, it's either a rules glitch, or a fairly large setting change on the nature of magic I missed the memo on.

1 hour ago, Dragon said:

This all does bear on Hallucination, as I wondered what would happen if I parried with the Hallucination of a great sword. Would it protect me? I feel it would. And it would  totally confuse the attacker. The Hallucination of a great sword could not damage that opponent, but it could save me. YGMV.

For me, clearly not, as it's going well beyond the scope of "completely undetectable to anyone else".  You "detect" Substance by physically interacting with it, so if it acts as solid for other people it's a first-order Illusion, not a Hallucination.  But it's not exactly the clearest thing to interpret, as has been noted, so YGMV indeed -- all round!

[Akhôrahil]

I think the point is that the Illusions you create for yourself don't even exist for anyone or anything else. So you can't parry with a hallucinary sword.

Some odd situations might turn up, though. I'm sure we agree that an illusionary roc could pick you up and fly away with you, but what if you have tied another person to yourself with ropes? Do you get lifted up and carry the other person with you (cheapest Fly spell!) , or does it fail to work because the hallucinary roc can't in any way affect the other person?

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

So you can't parry with a hallucinary sword.

Hmm, I would say you could.

[Runeblogger]

Can you hallucinate people you know and ask them questions?  😝

[Alex]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Some odd situations might turn up, though. I'm sure we agree that an illusionary roc could pick you up and fly away with you, but what if you have tied another person to yourself with ropes? Do you get lifted up and carry the other person with you (cheapest Fly spell!) , or does it fail to work because the hallucinary roc can't in any way affect the other person?

A hallucinatory illusory invisible roc, at that!  Though I guess with a 12-point budget, no need to stint too much on the special effects, could throw in some SFX for your own amusement and convenience of reference.  Then again, what SIZ is a roc?  I was sure we had stats for them somewhere, can't find where.  But two or three points of Hallucinate should cover a griffin, seems good enough!

And... I dunno.  Or likewise the Hallucinatory bridge -- it'll bear you (Wile E.), but can you carry others across on it?  If not, then how and why can you even carry other things over it?  Whereas if you can, just how much "buffer" do you need between them, and the... thing that's not really there?

I'm tempted to suggest the Toon/Roger Rabbit approach:  whatever's funny.  Logical consistency exits as soon as Subjective Substance enters, and we're left making running repairs.  And trying to construct a rough bracket of gameability between Hallucinate being useless (can't affect anyone else by any means), and it making all other illusion redundant (just needs a thin sliver of the Trickster intervening between the purportedly-them-only glamour and the rest of the world).

3 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

Can you hallucinate people you know and ask them questions?  😝

Likely needs Illusory INT (or CHA), which is likely as objectively useful as it sounds...

[PhilHibbs]

I’m on the side of not parrying or stabbing with hallucinations. It isn’t real for the other person or their sword. The spell is OP enough already.

As for my trickster, he didn’t have Hallucinate because I felt it was too powerful. Too easy. Swallow, Lie, and Become Pair Of Smoking Boots were his only tricks.

[Godlearner]

19 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The spell is OP enough already

As a rule of thumb, unless there is an Orlanthi around to take responsibility for the Trickster, I would kill them ASAP. Save a lot of pain later on.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

Can you hallucinate people you know and ask them questions?  😝

Yes, but you will have to decide what they answer, which might defeat the purpose.

48 minutes ago, Alex said:

A hallucinatory illusory invisible roc, at that!  Though I guess with a 12-point budget, no need to stint too much on the special effects, could throw in some SFX for your own amusement and convenience of reference.  Then again, what SIZ is a roc?  I was sure we had stats for them somewhere, can't find where.  But two or three points of Hallucinate should cover a griffin, seems good enough!

Ah, but you can create a huge illusion and then only give it a little substance, I would say.

49 minutes ago, Alex said:

And... I dunno.  Or likewise the Hallucinatory bridge -- it'll bear you (Wile E.), but can you carry others across on it?  If not, then how and why can you even carry other things over it? 

I think it only exists for you, but your stuff counts as part of you. It gets odd when you want to carry someone across your hallucinary bridge, though - does this work?

[Alex]

30 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Ah, but you can create a huge illusion and then only give it a little substance, I would say.

Hrm.  Interesting.  In general I imagine you can, yes -- cheap Trickster-grade set-dressing!  But if you're planning on it being your lift home, as in this example, I'd presume it has to have enough Illusory SIZ for that to seem viable.  An (invisible temporary) griffin with a subjective SIZ of 12 seems a little... underpowered.  Exactly how -- or why! -- you'd make that precise I'm not sure, but let's throw that into the mix of hot-takes to argue over, and worry about systematising it later.

30 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think it only exists for you, but your stuff counts as part of you. It gets odd when you want to carry someone across your hallucinary bridge, though - does this work?

Yes, I agree (and wonder) on all these counts.  Imagine further that the Trickster is carrying someone over their Hallucination, and part of them or their equipment dangles through the span of the bridge.  (Top-slung greatsword belonging to someone being bridal-carried: now there's an image.)  Does even the Eurmali start to have suspension (yes) of disbelief issues at that point?

[Alex]

49 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

As a rule of thumb, unless there is an Orlanthi around to take responsibility for the Trickster, I would kill them ASAP. Save a lot of pain later on.

Apparently these days we also have 'customary Tricksters', where the community more generally has a broader acceptance of (and I assume by implication, a degree of responsibility for).  Just thought I'd mention that before you traumatise too many children's birthday parties by killing the clown!

(Though full disclosure, there was another discussion on whether Sartarites had birthday parties, and the feeling in the room seemed to be "mostly not", and equally you might traumatise the children by not killing the clown...)