Rune Spell "Hallucinate"

[Godlearner]

39 minutes ago, Alex said:

Apparently these days we also have 'customary Tricksters', where the community more generally has a broader acceptance

I am talking about player characters. 🤪

[Alex]

10 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

I am talking about player characters. 🤪

That those might have customary community acceptance does admittedly fail the credibility test!

[Dragon]

9 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

An illusion with substance can do damage. One point of substance can do 1D3 points of damage; 2 points can do 1D6 points of damage; and 4 can do 2D6. Each additional 2 points does a further 1D6 damage.

Pg. 332 Core Rules

To do close to greatsword damage of 2d8 you'd need at least a 4 Point Illusory Substance, no matter how big or small your invisible weapon is. Heck, you could make it an invisible pike and poke people with it from 10 feet away for 6 points and it would do 3d6 damage. Almost as good as an actual weapon!

Ah the difference between RQG and RBM. Is this a case of newer rule (RBM) overriding the older Core Rule? Not in my pay grade.

[Alex]

14 hours ago, Dragon said:

Ah the difference between RQG and RBM. Is this a case of newer rule (RBM) overriding the older Core Rule? Not in my pay grade.

The RQGCB omits -- to my confusion and shame! -- the RBM addition about using the Substance as a weapon, but I dunno if there's any further distinction about the "damage" thing, which is certainly in the CB, as quoted.  On the one hand the Substance thing might be an overall limit, or on the other, it might just limit the damage you can do with a non-wielded illusion, by the Substance+Motion route.

On the face of it, I'd go with the former interpretation.  Adding additional points of Substance isn't just sheer mass, it's 'fanciness' of the object.  If you want more damage, you need a more sophisticated and powerful illusion, whether it's the sophistication of a sack-of-potatoes weight being dropped on someone, or the power of a devilishly sharp and well-shaped and -tempered blade.

[ ETA:  Interesting, not an addition in the RBM, a substitution.  So above speculation on my part entirely incorrect, apologies all for any addition to the confusion on this topic.  Guess the CB Q&A on magic really does need to be read in conjunction with the RBM text.  (Tricky though that may be if one lacks a copy.) ]

Edited January 17, 2022 by Alex
eta

[Dragon]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

The RQGCB omits -- to my confusion and shame! -- the RBM addition about using the Substance as a weapon, but I dunno if there's any further distinction about the "damage" thing, which is certainly in the CB, as quoted.  On the one hand the Substance thing might be an overall limit, or on the other, it might just limit the damage you can do with a non-wielded illusion, by the Substance+Motion route.

On the face of it, I'd go with the former interpretation.  Adding additional points of Substance isn't just sheer mass, it's 'fanciness' of the object.  If you want more damage, you need a more sophisticated and powerful illusion, whether it's the sophistication of a sack-of-potatoes weight being dropped on someone, or the power of a devilishly sharp and well-shaped and -tempered blade.

Yes. While I believe the RBM version specifically allows the big invisible weapon to be wielded by the caster, I also think it is a bit overpowered. We don't want to see a two full page description of each Illusory spell either. So, each GM will have to add limits as they wish.

[Alex]

1 minute ago, Dragon said:

Yes. While I believe the RBM version specifically allows the big invisible weapon to be wielded by the caster, I also think it is a bit overpowered. We don't want to see a two full page description of each Illusory spell either. So, each GM will have to add limits as they wish.

I suspect -- to blue-sky somewhat, rather than opine on how to interpret the existing rules -- that it needs some sort of gloss of how 'normal' illusions work. Over and above the multi-dimensional spell descriptions, some sort of general unifying upsum.  (Or maybe just more on Substance, which is where most of the gotchas lie.)  Then on top of that, rather more on the scope of Hallucinate.

I think for me, on the one hand, illusions generally are very costly and weak, but on the other, Substance is poorly integrated with the other.  If it were required that Substance had to be cast stacked with one (all?) of the others, but those were cheaper overall, that'd make more sense to me.  And on the third tentacle, I don't really get Hallucinate at all.  Not sure how it's runnable without some sort of Toon Session Zero if anyone's playing a Trickster, and a certain amount of self-denying ordinance if the GM is using Eurmal worshippers with that.

A feasible halfway house might be other 'package deal' Illusion rune magics that bundle different effects in a somewhat limited but more cost-effective manner, as I think was implied to exist at one point.

[Scotty]

8 hours ago, Dragon said:

Ah the difference between RQG and RBM. Is this a case of newer rule (RBM) overriding the older Core Rule? 

This is a clarification that will go into a new printing of the core rules (whenever that is).

See Illusory Substance in the Q&A

[Kloster]

6 minutes ago, Scotty said:

This is a clarification that will go into a new printing of the core rules (whenever that is).

See Illusory Substance in the Q&A

When can we hope to get a new pdf version?

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, Kloster said:

When can we hope to get a new pdf version?

I can't see any difference between that Q&A page and the RBOM. The 2D6-per-two-points is gone and appears to be staying gone.

Oh, were you referring to a new core book pdf? Sorry I think I misunderstood.

Edited January 17, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Joerg]

On 1/16/2022 at 4:46 PM, jajagappa said:

Of course!  Perfectly reasonable to hallucinate the vial of anti-venom, and drink it down to save you.  And while no one else can see it, I'd allow the trickster who does to pour it down someone else's throat to save them.

In my game, the recipient of Hallucinate would hallucinate the good outcome of such an action. That person would be free of poisoning to the Hallucinant while the spell lasts.

And then, the Hallucinant would be surprised how the dull world has not saved their object of desire.

[Joerg]

I would allow hallucinatory armor to absorb any adequate amount of damage, and any weapon striking the hallucinant turned into a bladder on a stick will only create the effects of that. So your Eurmali hit by Troll Mauls might be pushed gently side to side while giggling madly as he receives mild concussion damage and is drowned in illusionary fart noises. And no, that damage taken doesn't increase when the hallucination ends.

Hallucinatory armor might consist of ablative kittens or other toony stuff.

 

Hallucinate also can serve as an alternative to Lie, or both spells might be one and the same - the Hallucinant's perceptions (even if created by the Hallucinant) are real. "I have had a vision of tomorrow, and the sun never rose." True, if that was the content of the Hallucinate experience.

[g33k]

On 1/15/2022 at 3:34 PM, Alex said:

I don't follow your distinction between these two days.  In the first the rope shares the "subjective substance" experience with the Trickster, but in the second, the horses and charioteers do not?  Because the former isn't animate, and the latter isn't?  What about the chariot itself, then, does it get smashed, after the horses have gone through the wall?  Is it treated as part of the "animate unit"?  If so, how exactly are we scoping this in the general case?

Personally I'd play the "rope" case entirely differently, and the "chariot" case in the way you suggest.  I think this pretty clear exemplifies the problem, rather than any sort of solution.

This is my own "work in progress" of Hallucinate; it's an oddball, to be sure!  As befits Eurmal...
But if this conversation provides convincing arguments, my ideas are open to change

It seems to me a question of whether the Hallucination is directly affecting an entity that can perceive, or has INT or POW; it's rather like the (incorrect) lay understanding of Schrodinger's "Observer Effect." 

Hallucinate is "real" (for the caster), so it needs to be able to affect the *inanimate* (non-observing) world:
 * if the Eurmali Hallucinates a horse, they can gallop as long as the spell lasts; and they really move that distance across the world.  Observers see the Eurmali float through the air ("possibly riding an invisible horse," they might speculate).  Or fly away on an illusory Hippogriff; etc.
 * if the Eurmali Hallucinates a saw, and cuts a log, tossing half of it into the river to float away... it really goes away.  Observers see the Eurmali go through the motions of cutting a log, and the log separates.  "Invisibility AND silence... on a saw???"  But that half-log vanishing downstream... awfully convincing, that.

The chariot (above) does not break because the riders (and horses) are directly experiencing said chariot; just as a hallucinated Great Axe won't "cut through armor but not harm the skin of the target."

The rope gets cut because the poor sods down on the cliff below can't actually see *what* the Eurmali is doing to the rope; probably can't even see the Eurmali.  They have a perception of the rope in their hands, but where it goes over the top and out of sight, their perception stops.

[Kloster]

16 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Oh, were you referring to a new core book pdf?

Yes. If core book rules are superseded by new ones and those changes are planed to enter a new print run, they should also be in the pdf.

[Geoff R Evil]

On 1/18/2022 at 7:04 AM, g33k said:

This is my own "work in progress" of Hallucinate; it's an oddball, to be sure!  As befits Eurmal...
But if this conversation provides convincing arguments, my ideas are open to change

It seems to me a question of whether the Hallucination is directly affecting an entity that can perceive, or has INT or POW; it's rather like the (incorrect) lay understanding of Schrodinger's "Observer Effect." 

Hallucinate is "real" (for the caster), so it needs to be able to affect the *inanimate* (non-observing) world:
 * if the Eurmali Hallucinates a horse, they can gallop as long as the spell lasts; and they really move that distance across the world.  Observers see the Eurmali float through the air ("possibly riding an invisible horse," they might speculate).  Or fly away on an illusory Hippogriff; etc.
 * if the Eurmali Hallucinates a saw, and cuts a log, tossing half of it into the river to float away... it really goes away.  Observers see the Eurmali go through the motions of cutting a log, and the log separates.  "Invisibility AND silence... on a saw???"  But that half-log vanishing downstream... awfully convincing, that.

The chariot (above) does not break because the riders (and horses) are directly experiencing said chariot; just as a hallucinated Great Axe won't "cut through armor but not harm the skin of the target."

The rope gets cut because the poor sods down on the cliff below can't actually see *what* the Eurmali is doing to the rope; probably can't even see the Eurmali.  They have a perception of the rope in their hands, but where it goes over the top and out of sight, their perception stops.

I agree with this inanimate vs animate interaction effect and will allow my Eurmali in my game to use it this way.

This does mean the trolls great mall could be turned into fluffy cushion and the eurmali could seem invincible for a while!

I also add the rule the Eurmal cannot self delude itself via this hallucinogenic spell about anything it has not previously experienced….never seen acid, cannot hallucinate about it.

on the hole question - where someone said you cannot destroy via a creative illusion, I think that maybe true of illusions, but this is self delusion in a way that affects the world for you, so if I believe there is a hole there, there is! What I am doing is creating air where there was rock, displacement not destruction.

thoughts?

 

[Shiningbrow]

Could a Hallucinate create a real enchantment that works for everyone? Eg, the Eurmali Hallucinates an enchantment for a Heal Body spell, and then can cast that spell on someone else?

Or Hallucinate a spirit that can cast spells?

Could they Hallucinate being in another city, and then be teleported there?

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Could a Hallucinate create a real enchantment that works for everyone? Eg, the Eurmali Hallucinates an enchantment for a Heal Body spell, and then can cast that spell on someone else?

They might believe it worked...

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Or Hallucinate a spirit that can cast spells?

They might believe the spirit spell was cast...

Of course a spirit might just appear totally coincidentally to the casting of the spell. And it might not be entirely helpful...

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Could they Hallucinate being in another city, and then be teleported there?

They'd just see the city around themselves for the duration. Maybe if they didn't intend to teleport then they might get teleported, if it's funny.

I love the idea of hallucinating a pillow strapped to the troll's club though. The inevitable argument with the GM is the best bit, "It's not real for the troll so it can't feel the softening of the blow therefore it isn't softened", "But it's real for me so it has to be softened..." Damned munchkins, don't you just hate 'em!

Edited March 9 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

15 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

I also add the rule the Eurmal cannot self delude itself via this hallucinogenic spell about anything it has not previously experienced….never seen acid, cannot hallucinate about it.

To a certain extent... but I would say that they can inadvertently experience things. They may have seen acid, but not know what it does, so if they hallucinate it then they can find out that it burns.

15 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

on the hole question - where someone said you cannot destroy via a creative illusion, I think that maybe true of illusions, but this is self delusion in a way that affects the world for you, so if I believe there is a hole there, there is! What I am doing is creating air where there was rock, displacement not destruction.

thoughts?

Of course it's impossible, but we're talking about tricksters here. Doing the impossible is part of their job. I'd say it's a coin toss whether it's real or not, and they test it beforehand then they don't really believe it so it isn't real. They have to run at that hole full tilt to find out. And yes, I know belief isn't relevant to illusions, but comedy is relevant to trickster magic so that trumps the ruling.

Edited March 9 by PhilHibbs

[Joerg]

15 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

on the hole question - where someone said you cannot destroy via a creative illusion, I think that maybe true of illusions, but this is self delusion in a way that affects the world for you, so if I believe there is a hole there, there is! What I am doing is creating air where there was rock, displacement not destruction.

You might think of the opening as replacing one material (or material property) for another, but you might as well hallucinate extra space where there was none before, and move through that.

To onlookers, it might look like the Trickster got two-dimensional before disappearing into the wall (or other such obstacle).

As a general rule, Trickster spells imbue a "reality" that resembles "Who Framed Roger Rabbit".

[kr0p0s]

Could a trickster inadvertently or deliberately bring a Chaos entity into existence beyond the spell duration? If they were to Hallucinate something monstrous during the Orlanthi Summons of Evil ritual or near a chaotic landmark, e.g. Snakepipe Hollow, could Choas use it as a way into the Middle World?

 

[Shiningbrow]

18 minutes ago, kr0p0s said:

Could a trickster inadvertently or deliberately bring a Chaos entity into existence beyond the spell duration? If they were to Hallucinate something monstrous during the Orlanthi Summons of Evil ritual or near a chaotic landmark, e.g. Snakepipe Hollow, could Choas use it as a way into the Middle World?

 

Well of course! That would simply be MGF 😆

[kr0p0s]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Well of course! That would simply be MGF 😆

Just trying to imagine what went on at the Trickster college in Slontos. I imagine that this was something to be experimented with. Pushing the limits of Hallucinate. No wonder it was destroyed...or was it? Are the survivors down there Hallucinating back the sea?

Edit: changed by Chaos, inhuman tentacled monstrosities trapped beneath the sea, reaching out into the dreams and minds of man. Oh. Different Chaosium product...

Edited March 9 by kr0p0s

[Joerg]

IMO the Slontos problem wasn't caused by Chaos, but by the Boggles. These creaturöd üp+sflknüälk +  piks+fpdgj+ü h+po

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 3/8/2023 at 9:41 PM, Geoff R Evil said:

I agree with this inanimate vs animate interaction effect and will allow my Eurmali in my game to use it this way.

This does mean the trolls great mall could be turned into fluffy cushion and the eurmali could seem invincible for a while!

I also add the rule the Eurmal cannot self delude itself via this hallucinogenic spell about anything it has not previously experienced….never seen acid, cannot hallucinate about it.

on the hole question - where someone said you cannot destroy via a creative illusion, I think that maybe true of illusions, but this is self delusion in a way that affects the world for you, so if I believe there is a hole there, there is! What I am doing is creating air where there was rock, displacement not destruction.

thoughts?

 

just a change for me :

"if I believe there is a hole there, there is for me !"

yes the eurmali would see a hole and would be able to go beyond, but, for the others, they don't see, there is not for them

 

so the big question with this troll and his maul is more : as this maul exists for anyone except the eurmali, should we call him "shrodinger" ?

convinced to be alive for the eurmali, clearly destroyed for others ? where and how is he  ? however as there is a duration, we just need to wait and open the box to see that, at the end of the spell the eurmali is dead

[g33k]

On 3/8/2023 at 12:41 PM, Geoff R Evil said:

 ...

on the hole question - where someone said you cannot destroy via a creative illusion, I think that maybe true of illusions, but this is self delusion in a way that affects the world for you, so if I believe there is a hole there, there is! What I am doing is creating air where there was rock, displacement not destruction.

thoughts?

I think not:

Gloranthan "Illusions" -- as "temporary reality" rather than what most people think of as "illusions" -- are already weird enough (and harder for players to grasp).

The "Hallucinate" spell -- as a personal reality, only true for the caster -- is weirder still, and that much harder for players to grasp (and GM's to adjudicate); and in the right hands (for which read, with the right imagination), it is more than potent enough & MGF-filled.

You've misunderstood, I think, when calling "Hallucinate" a "self-delusion" -- it isn't a delusion at all.   It's a reality (albeit a temporary one).  Illusion magic is creative, not destructive... including Hallucinate.

===

I haven't had a player try it -- I have GM'ed exactly zero Eurmali -- but I'd consider allowing illusion to create a "hole in a wall" -- i'd rule it's actually a magical portal, a plane of magic you step through.  Immediately behind that plane is the wall, undestroyed (indeed unaffected) by the illusion.

OTOH, this raises a tremendous number of problems, so I'm not at all clear that I would allow it.  MGF and all that, but I need my fun too, and there's some internal inconsistencies that I may find to be a step too far...

[g33k]

On 3/9/2023 at 2:24 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Could a Hallucinate create a real enchantment that works for everyone? Eg, the Eurmali Hallucinates an enchantment for a Heal Body spell, and then can cast that spell on someone else?

Nope.  Same way a hallucinated axe can't hurt anyone (except the caster).

 

On 3/9/2023 at 2:24 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Or Hallucinate a spirit that can cast spells?

Only spells cast upon the Eurmali caster of the Hallucinate...

But that's a very munchkin move -- get Strength, Vigor, Mobility, and a Countermagic-10 as pre-combat buffs, then a Heal-10 per round thereafter, for the duration of the Hallucination.

(I think the Illusion rules may need supplementing; even an OP spell like Hallucinate shouldn't allow access to any/all spirit-magic!  But afaik the rules do not preclude this, limit it, or in fact address it in any way ... )
 

On 3/9/2023 at 2:24 AM, Shiningbrow said:

...

Could they Hallucinate being in another city, and then be teleported there?

No, they'd just be wandering around where they started, interacting with people & buildings &c that nobody else could see.  They'd be much like a demented mime.