Rune Spell "Hallucinate"

[Darius West]

On 3/18/2023 at 3:20 PM, SDLeary said:

Wait... you didn't know Greg was the Great Trickster?! 😉

SDLeary

Shhh!  I knew damn well, I was just... Ah nvm... Too late...😨

[whitelaughter]

Hallucinate copies other illusions, but only for the caster - so unless you can think of a way to teleport using an illusion, I don't see how this can make you teleport.

 

Fun spell though.

Pointless creating a boat, as the water ignore it, giving you a swamped boat. But a raft, or bridge, or horse, or hippogriff, no problems.

Creating a light pointless, as it will only illuminate you: but because illusions are 'real' you can create a wall of light behind your foes, and they will be visible as shadows, since they are (from your perspective) blocking the light.

Armor normally useless - but will protect you from fumbles (if normal armor will).

Great for bandaging wounds, and thus creeping out opponents who just see you covered in gashes that aren't bleeding.

Excellent for creating clothing - wander through the snow in a real loincloth, and Hallucinatory furs, and you appear immune to cold.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Creating a light pointless, as it will only illuminate you: but because illusions are 'real' you can create a wall of light behind your foes, and they will be visible as shadows, since they are (from your perspective) blocking the light.

An illusion of a light is interesting. If it would work as an Illusion spell, then it would work as a Hallucinate. And as illusions are temporary reality, an illusory lamp should work, so a hallucinated lamp should also work.

And if they are blocking the wall of light, then they are also being illuminated by it.

Edited March 29, 2023 by PhilHibbs

[Bren]

9 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Pointless creating a boat, as the water ignore it, giving you a swamped boat. But a raft, or bridge, or horse, or hippogriff, no problems.

Why would a boat be different from a raft? They seem that same to me.

Also, I would definitely allow a bridge to work based on the principle of Coyote vs. Roadrunner style physics.

[PhilHibbs]

1 minute ago, Bren said:

Why would a boat be different from a raft? They seem that same to me.

Whilst I agree with your conclusion, I absolutely see the line of reasoning that leads to it not working.

Does the hallucinatory boat displace water?

If the answer is "yes", then everyone would see a hole in the water, a boat-shaped depression.

If the answer is "no", then there are two possibilities:

1. The water goes straight through the boat and so it sinks.
2. The boat rests on top of the water, and immediately tilts over when the trickster jumps in, probably tipping him out into the water.

I don't like either of the "no" options, so I'd go with "yes"... but do people see the depression? Or is the depression only real to the trickster, so everyone else just sees water, until the trickster jumps in and they see him scooting along seemingly half in the water?

There are no perfect answers. I think this is inevitable with Hallucinate, like hallucinating cushions strapped to that troll maul that I'm about to get beaten up with. Do they pad the blow or not?

[Bren]

Yes does seem like the better answer.

The displacement argument also applies to the raft. If it does not displace water, than it sits on top of the water and unless the trickster manages to successfully jump really well, they will step or land too far from the center of mass of the raft and it will tip or skip out from under them (since their is no resistance from the undisplaced water) dropping them into the drink.

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, Bren said:

Yes does seem like the better answer.

The displacement argument also applies to the raft. If it does not displace water, than it sits on top of the water and unless the trickster manages to successfully jump really well, they will step or land too far from the center of mass of the raft and it will tip or skip out from under them (since their is no resistance from the undisplaced water) dropping them into the drink.

But the hallucinated raft can be hallucinated to sink a little.  Is there any reason to think it would be hallucinated  to be frictionless?

 

 

[Bren]

No. But if it doesn't displace any water it is nearly frictionless. Which is why I see the boat and the raft as the same. Either both work or neither works.

[g33k]

On 3/29/2023 at 2:43 AM, whitelaughter said:

...

Pointless creating a boat, as the water ignore it, giving you a swamped boat ...

YGMV, but I disagree.  "The water" doesn't "ignore" the boat, the water doesn't have that kind of consciousness with which to observe. 

The water treats an illusionary boat the same as a regular boat.

It would treat the Hallucinated boat the same as an illusionary boat, for the Eurmali.

QED

Other observers would see a "bowl" shape in the water, where the boat displaces it.  But if they try to jump into (what might seem to them to be) an Invisible boat, they fall right through, into the water.  DEX roll to grab hold of the Eurmali, and not be fully immersed.

As a visual, it's a ridiculous sight.  Also sounds quite dangerous.
Very Eurmal outcome!

 

On 3/29/2023 at 2:43 AM, whitelaughter said:

... bridge, or horse, or hippogriff, no problems ...

 These are key exemplars, to me.

Can the Eurmali  really walk across  a Hallucinated bridge?  Ride a Hallucinated horse?  Be carried by a Hallucinated Hippogriff?

If the answer is yes -- and for the canonical spell, it clearly is -- then we ask the secondary question:

What do observers see?

I say they see the Eurmali walk on thin air, ride horse-height but apparently unsupported, and "be carried" by nothing at all.  It would IMHO most look to an observer as if the Eurmali were in fact using an invisible instance of the thing they Hallucinated.

If the outside observers get to observe these "as if an invisible object" occurences -- and I assert that they do! -- then I see no reason not to treat a boat the same way, including being able to observe the Eurmali sitting in a depression in the water, miming that they are rowing or sailing a boat.

###

Now, if the "observer" of the Hallucination were a swimmer from below (say, a Triolini), they'd see a weirdly smooth depression in the water, with someone sitting inside, moving as if it was a boat.  They too might presume "invisible boat," but -- when they swam up to investigate -- they'd discover that the person within didn't see them.  They couldn't *touch* the boat, instead reaching up into thin air.

With their trident, or other weapon, they could freely stab the Eurmali (unimpeded by the nonexistent-to-them) hull...  Most likely, we observe, stab them in the butt; and this too is a very Eurmali outcome.

Edited March 30, 2023 by g33k

[PhilHibbs]

If I hallucinate a cup, can I scoop up some water and drink it? I'd say yes. If I hallucinate a boat, can it displace water? By the same logic, yes.

Of course this gets into trouble when I try to sail my hallucinatory boat right through someone swimming in the water. If it displaces the water, then does it a) knock the person aside, b) go right through them without affecting them, or c) bounce off them like a rock because it can't affect them in any way?

These corner cases are inevitable with the selective reality of hallucinate. Personally I think it probably behaves differently each time, randomly, or at the capricious whim of the GM.

[whitelaughter]

If a Hallucinatory boat can displace water, then the distinction of 'only affecting the caster' is functionally gone. A Hallucinatory bow can fire real arrows; a Hallucinatory warrior pick up a sword and stab someone.

However, the raft isn't an issue. No, it can't displace the water. But the caster will perceive it as having done so, it will sink slightly, and caster can step on it as if it were a real raft.

[Bren]

4 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

However, the raft isn't an issue. No, it can't displace the water. But the caster will perceive it as having done so, it will sink slightly, and caster can step on it as if it were a real raft.

If it sinks, even a little, it displaces water. So we are back to displacing water. Just like the boat.

[soltakss]

It's a silly spell, don't overthink it

[g33k]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

It's a silly spell, don't overthink it

It is, yes.
But some folks like to delve into these byways.

And for some, they need to delve in, to develop an internally-consistent framework to support an adequate "suspension of disbelief."

[g33k]

7 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

If a Hallucinatory boat can displace water, then the distinction of 'only affecting the caster' is functionally gone...

Not so.  The dividing-line is just (for some of us, at our tables) different from where you think it is (at your table).

Hallucinate is still, fundamentally, "Illusion" magic.
And in Glorantha, that means it's "temporary reality" magic.

The "Hallucinate" rune-spell isn't a "hallucination" in the ordinary sense of the word (i.e. "only in your mind" and "not really happening"); the Rune Spell has genuine (albeit highly-specific) "temporary reality").

If someone casts regular Illusion magic & creates a horse, they can really ride that horse.  They move across the field (provided there's enough points of  Illusory Substance  and  Illusory Movement).  If it's a big-enough horse, the horse can carry someone else, riding pillion.  The "illusory" horse leaves very-real hoofprints on all but the hardest ground, because it's (temporarily) real.

Hallucinate differs, in that only the Eurmali can be carried by a Hallucinate'd horse -- a would-be pillion rider finds no horse to sit upon, and falls to the ground (a very Eurmali outcome).

But note that the Eurmali still sits on their horse, and moves across the field... this really happens, and all observers can see it.  In my mind's eye, this looks (to an observer) like the Eurmali is riding an invisible horse (I find this a very-useful base-case for extrapolating out from). 

The Illusory horse can kick someone; it does real injuries, needs real healing (magical or just days/weeks of recovery).
The Hallucinate'd horse can only kick the Eurmali ... but it still does real injury, needing real healing!

There's a vast number of "effects upon reality" that persist after Illusions end.  Reality ... "fossilizes" (for lack of a better word) the effects of the illusion, a lasting & real imprint of events that really happened.  The movement-via-illusory-horse is one such "fossil" (as are wounds from Illusory weapons, or from being kicked by Illusory horses).

[Bren]

58 minutes ago, g33k said:

Hallucinate is still, fundamentally, "Illusion" magic.
And in Glorantha, that means it's "temporary reality" magic.

I'm finding this way of thinking about Illusions and, by extension, Hallucinate to be very helpful. Thanks!
 

Road Runner cartoons also help me to visualize Gloranthan Illusions. When Wiley Coyote paints a tunnel mouth on the side of a cliff, the painted tunnel mouth for him is just paint on the wall. He can't go through the tunnel. But for the Road Runner (and any oncoming trains) the painted tunnel mouth acts just like a real tunnel mouth. For a few moments it is a real tunnel mouth. In Gloranthan magic terms, Coyote paints a tunnel mouth, then the Road Runner casts Hallucinate so he can pass through the tunnel mouth. (For the moment, like Wiley Coyote, we shall ignore the oncoming train.)

Painting the tunnel mouth doesn't correspond to anything in Gloranthan magic, but we, the audience, need the Coyote to paint a tunnel mouth before the Road Runner casts his hallucinate so we can understand what happens. And because it is funnier with a visible tunnel mouth.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Bren

[g33k]

7 minutes ago, Bren said:

...

Road Runner cartoons also help me to visualize Gloranthan Illusions. When Wiley Coyote paints a tunnel mouth on the side of a cliff, the painted tunnel mouth for him is just paint on the wall. He can't go through the tunnel. But for the Road Runner (and any oncoming trains) the painted tunnel mouth acts just like a real tunnel mouth. For a few moments it is a real tunnel mouth. In Gloranthan magic terms, Coyote paints a tunnel mouth, then the Road Runner casts Hallucinate so he can pass through the tunnel mouth. (For the moment, like Wiley Coyote, we shall ignore the oncoming train.)

Painting the tunnel mouth doesn't correspond to anything in Gloranthan magic, but we, the audience, need the Coyote to paint a tunnel mouth before the Road Runner casts his hallucinate so we can understand what happens. And because it is funnier with a visible tunnel mouth.

Road Runner is an archpriest of Eurmal.

Not only does he Hallucinate a real tunnel to run through, he than casts an Illusion of an oncoming train, to run over Coyote.

I'm not sure how many Rune Points that cost him... but he's got a LOT of them, for sure!

[Bren]

Thanks for a succinct explanation for the oncoming train. 

Now I want to watch a Road Runner cartoon from the point of view that the Road Runner is High Priest casting Eurmali spells.

Hey, wait a minute. If a Eurmali had the Rune spell, Become Road Runner and enough Rune points, they could be the Road Runner.

[g33k]

1 minute ago, Bren said:

...

Hey, wait a minute. If a Eurmali had the Rune spell, Become Road Runner and enough Rune points, they could be the Road Runner.

The "Road Runner" (Geococcyx spp.) is from the arid U.S. southwest desert; this is where Greg got his vision of Prax.

+1% on your Illumination roll next Sacred Time.

[g33k]

22 minutes ago, Bren said:

I'm finding this way of thinking about Illusions and, by extension, Hallucinate to be very helpful. Thanks!

...

In the end, each us us only needs a Glorantha that works for us, at our table.
This is the understanding that has worked for me; if it helps you too, I'm pleased to have helped!

 

To me, understanding the Hallucinate Rune-Spell relies upon the twin pillars of:

• Hallucinate is Gloranthan Illusion-magic, so it partakes of that magic's "temporary reality" nature

combined with:

• Hallucinate only works for the casting Eurmali, so its "temporary reality" relies upon a vaguely-Heisenbergian "observer effect."

It takes a sentient observer to  not  be affected by the Eurmali Hallucination... because Hallucinate (as Illusion) is (temporary) reality.

If there is no sentient 3rd-party interacting with the Hallucination -- and directly-experiencing it as not-existing -- then the "temporary reality" of it is as "real" as any other Illusion-magic.

[g33k]

Weird knock-on effects of Hallucinate:

A Eurmali can walk across a bridge that they Hallucinate... but nobody else can...
but therefore the Eurmali can carry someone across the bridge.

Hope the Eurmali doesn't tire, and set the carried-person down so the Eurmali can rest; but, Eurmali.
So... 🤪

### 

The (real) horse the Eurmali is riding won't see a Hallucinated wall just in front of it, and will gallop on through its non-existence.  The Eurmali will hit the (solid, real-to-them) wall at a full gallop, not even cushioned by the horse in front of them.

###

The "inanimate" world isn't an "observer," but a "Genus Loci" spirit (Dryad, Nymph, etc) is an observer. A Hallucinated boat will displace water ... unless the creek is a Nymph, whose body is the creek.

This is one of those weird(er) corner-case situations, as the respective realities collide.

Does the Hallucinated boat sink into the water?  It can't, because then the Nymph would be able to directly-perceive the Hallucination.  So... what does the Eurmali perceive?  Does the boat *seem* to sink?

I think this goes into YGWV / MGF territory.

My analysis goes back to simpler a case:  the Hallucinated sword.

Everyone sees the Hallucinating Eurmali "miming" a sword; unless they fumble and hit themselves, there will be no effect.

What happens when the Eurmali Hallucinates hitting someone with this sword?  Nothing, by definition... but what does the Eurmali perceive?  Do they perceive the sword striking home, and blood spraying?  That would be a small-h hallucination, purely a perception, that doesn't correspond to reality.  Do they perceive the sword being turned by the target's (startlingly-good!) armor?  Even if they rolled a Crit?  That seems... viable(ish)...?

YGMV, but once you know what happens (from the Eurmali POV) when a Hallucinate'd sword hits a real target, you should be able to infer how a boat acts on the Genus Loci of a creek.

[PhilHibbs]

9 hours ago, g33k said:

The "inanimate" world isn't an "observer," but a "Genus Loci" spirit (Dryad, Nymph, etc) is an observer. A Hallucinated boat will displace water ... unless the creek is a Nymph, whose body is the creek.

Unless it is "a free will" instead of "an observer". Since nymphs are otherworld entities, do they truly have free will? Or are they bound by myth in the same way that gods are, behaviour determined by magical law as the Malkioni believe them to be?

[g33k]

On 3/31/2023 at 1:13 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Unless it is "a free will" instead of "an observer". Since nymphs are otherworld entities, do they truly have free will? Or are they bound by myth in the same way that gods are, behaviour determined by magical law as the Malkioni believe them to be?

I don't believe most nymphs/etc are bound by the Compromise of Time, nor directly-support a strand of Arachne Solara's Web of Time.  It's possible though that some of them are bound to one of the gods (one who is bound to the Web), in which case they may well have some sort of similar limitations.

However, the gods mostly are unable to manifest or take action in-person in the Middle World (without breaking the Compromise).  So far as I know, most of the Genus Loci spirits are not so bound -- they often manifest bodies within Time, and take action within Time.  So I presume any who are bound that way are a rarity.

That being said, I think it would be exceedingly-unusual for a Genus Locus spirit to act in any other way than the best interests of its Locus!  So IMHO it rather renders the "Free Will" question moot, in most cases -- it will always "freely choose" the course it thinks "best," which kinda-sorta isn't a "free" choice.

I think a Malkioni-jargon analysis of the same phenomena would be largely parallel.

###

But "Free Will" isn't the core of the "Observer Effect" that I use in my analysis of Hallucinate rune-spell effects; it's strictly the sentience (not sapience) of the observer; a mere animal is immune to Hallucinate.

As always, "YGWV," but I'd find it a really weird carve-out for powerful Dryads &c to share -- alongside the mute & imperceptive world -- in the Eurmali's Hallucination.
 

Edited April 2, 2023 by g33k

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 3/30/2023 at 5:37 PM, g33k said:

 

...
This is one of those weird(er) corner-case situations, ........

What happens when the Eurmali Hallucinates hitting someone with this sword?  Nothing, by definition... but what does the Eurmali perceive?  Do they perceive the sword striking home, and blood spraying?  That would be a small-h hallucination, purely a perception, that doesn't correspond to reality.  Do they perceive the sword being turned: by the target's (startlingly-good!) armor?  Even if they rolled a Crit?  That seems... viable(ish)...?

YGMV, but once you know what happens (from the Eurmali POV) when a Hallucinate'd sword hits a real target, you should be able to infer how a boat acts on the Genus Loci of a creek.

It seems to me that the simplest solution is for the hallucinator  to rationalize whatever hhappens or does not happen, makeby elaborating details of the hallucination.  The sword seems to bounce off. And remember, the character doesn't know what the players dice rolled. So nothing  about a critical needs to be explained except that it missed.  The GM ought only to make sure that fumbles take effect.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 3/31/2023 at 12:05 AM, g33k said:

In the end, each us us only needs a Glorantha that works for us, at our table.

so true 🙂

 

then my "own" hallucinate

a) it works

b) it is cursed

c) it is powerful (maybe too influenced by king of dragon pass however)

 

use case : eurmali hallucinates a sword, she hits the opponent and rolls 10 dammage.

the opponent is wounded for 10 dammage (don't forget the armor), it is real, "of course ?!" there is no sword for an observer, but there is dammage.

however, the sword may breaks, or the wound may send some blood to the eurmali, now blind for 1 or 2 rounds, or is so heavy that the eurmali is projected few meters away

 

use case : eurmali in the see, she hallucinates to be in / on a ship.

the observer's reality is there are big waves

then depending where the eurmali is in / on the ship :

--> she is in the hold, she will not meet any water, however the observer will see her under water.. but alive

--> she is on the deck, she will be sprayed by the waves, and would have to roll dex or anything, to keep her balance. the observer will see her on water (more or less).. with some trouble but alive

--> she is on the top of the mast, she will be shaken and if not attached, would have to roll str or anything to not fall. Of course if she falls, there is wood not water to welcome her... The obersever will see her floating in the air, but not like an orlanthi, gracefully.. no ridiculously, and if she falls, yes in the water but with weird wounds , not done by water

 

and then the curse

--> in the hold ? why not some fishes (or a shark ?) enter "by magic" in the hold, of course not with all its abilities to fight or do what they want, as they are "on air" but disturbing and dangerous. After all, the eurmali thought to protect herself from water not shark 😛 (of course if the player hallucinates with the intention to protect the pc from water and sharks... well some rocks here, and the ship runs aground)

 

--> on the deck, on the top od the mast ? maybe the see were calm before hallucinate and now it seems Magasta himself is charging the ship (the rolls are enough), or if the see was already angry before hallucinate, maybe it is not only a "natural" phenomenon, why not because a kraken was here, maybe driven by some merfolk, maybe one will be seduced by the eurmali... where will go the trickster then, living with a half fish is perhaps fine in the abyss, who knows ?

 

I m not saying the curse must dissuade the player, just that, as it should be (imo) a very powerfull spell, it should lead to unexpected consequences (why not some heroquest, maybe the merfolk can provide help if the eurmali or all the group do something for them) could be few minutes of play in a weird situation, or a hook for a scenario or more

 

and there is no reason to "fix" any logic issue between the observer and the eurmali for me.

Eurmal is and too, not only

means in this case that logic cannot explain what happen, it is not a disorder against some mundane clan, city, science, knowledge law, it is disorder against the reality. So there is a moment (the spell duration) when the reality is incomplete, or illogic, or "chaotic" (not in the gloranthan evil sense, more in some "chronicles of Amber" sense - thanks, Mr Zelazny -)

  means in this case that when the spell is finished, the reality is again "One" but is a "merge" of the hallucinate and the observer's realities, so there is impact.

 

But again, I accept the distortion because I understand the spell as powerfull. Not just a protection spell able to preserve the eurmali for some time and back to the hard reality after. A "true" change