Martin Dick Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 32 minutes ago, Susimetsa said: "Also gaining a tick when you succeed at a skill isn't learning from success, it's a chance to learn from failure, which is what the actual improvement roll is, you fail the skill roll, you improve you skill." Are you saying that the character who succeeds at a task will later (that night, before going to bed) have the opportunity to try it again and fail in order to increase their skill? That doesn't sound logical to me, but I may have misunderstood... Yes, I don't get this at all either. If I never succeed at a skill, then I never get the chance to improve it in the current system (putting aside research and training) . As it says a checked box means "This means that the adventurer has successfully used that ability in a time of crisis and may, at a future time, learn from the experience." As well, it's not a skill roll, but an experience roll and it is run completely differently to a skill roll, so it's not really a failed skill roll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darius West Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 13 hours ago, Martin Dick said: That's fine, still having lots of fun, but I prefer more control over my character's destiny which is why I like XP systems despite their extra effort. XP systems aren't extra effort imo. What they are is a relic of D&D. You go to the page and chalk off the monster XP at the end of the scenario. Then you go up a level, just like in real life. 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bren Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 On 1/29/2022 at 9:19 PM, Bill the barbarian said: Hopefully handing the vote to the table overcomes this. Funnily enough, the example I had in mind used that exact method. That guy and his friend and I think one other person at the table voted for that guy and the rest of the people at the table split their votes. So Hammy McScenehog got the win. In general, handing out rewards based on a popularity contest isn't a very good method of allocating rewards. In RPGs it often rewards broad roleplaying over subtle displays and can intensify the benefits for outgoing players over the shy. Now the stakes for rewards in an RPG are low, so it's not a big deal if people want to vote on who gets more XP or all the shiny benefits. It's just not a method I've seen work particularly well in practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bren Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 For the people who dislike the randomness of box ticking and random rolls to improve skills and want a more directed character development, do you use the training rules and do PCs get much training? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugen Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 I give each player a number of box checks at the end of a session., which must be based on what their character experienced in-game, and not necessarily based on what rolls they made or failed. Say they spend a significant time on horse back, but never have to roll a skill related to it, I'd likely give them a check anyway. I do consider good role-play or good ideas as their own rewards, and don't give XP for those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Dick Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 19 hours ago, Darius West said: XP systems aren't extra effort imo. What they are is a relic of D&D. You go to the page and chalk off the monster XP at the end of the scenario. Then you go up a level, just like in real life. 😉 Well, they are more effort than the tick system, which is one of the advantages of them. And the D&D method of gaining experience points by killing monsters is a relic, I agree, but it is far from the only way of using them, e.g. DragonQuest, where the XP awarded is based on time played or even the milestone method option in 5e D&D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Dick Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 1 hour ago, Bren said: For the people who dislike the randomness of box ticking and random rolls to improve skills and want a more directed character development, do you use the training rules and do PCs get much training? No, because training is massively inefficient compared to ticks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill the barbarian Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Bren said: In general, handing out rewards based on a popularity contest isn't a very good method of allocating rewards. In RPGs it often rewards broad roleplaying over subtle displays and can intensify the benefits for outgoing players over the shy. Now the stakes for rewards in an RPG are low, so it's not a big deal if people want to vote on who gets more XP or all the shiny benefits. It's just not a method I've seen work particularly well in practice. It being one tick out of a possible seasonal 20 or so (this number will vary based on how the season went)... I have no qualms about it being a little over the top. And the players I had actually got it, well seemed to anyway. Boaty McBoatface can be irritating but, personally, I think a little player agency is a good thing. One check with a possible 6% should not lead to anarchy in the streets. So on this point I fear we will differ. Thinking on how it has worked in times past, I do intend to carry this forward. Cheers Edited January 31, 2022 by Bill the barbarian Quote ... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill the barbarian Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 4 hours ago, Bren said: For the people who dislike the randomness of box ticking and random rolls to improve skills and want a more directed character development, do you use the training rules and do PCs get much training? I would say all my players took advantage of the four occupation checks, one training check and one POW check allowed by rules every chance they got as well as the ticks one got for the one adventure per season also allowed in the rules. 2 Quote ... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akhôrahil Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 On 1/30/2022 at 2:57 PM, Darius West said: XP systems aren't extra effort imo. What they are is a relic of D&D. You go to the page and chalk off the monster XP at the end of the scenario. Then you go up a level, just like in real life. 😉 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Desperate WindChild Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 an option without "random" would be to create a kind of xp by skill each time you roll against your skill, you get xp (1 for a success, 2 for a special, maybe + or- 2 for fumble, etc...) then when your xp reachs a specific amount ( skill x 0.2 ? x 0.5 ? x2 ?) you can add 1d6 (or 1d4) you may complexify it depending on the skill stat: 0-10 -> skill x3, 11->30 -> skill x0.5, etc... depending on how you modelize the learning curve gm may offer some additional xp when the skill is used in a great way (roleplay / idea) or during a long time (build an house would allow more xp but that's for me too complex or boring if you play it in a "table" system (Including virtual tables). Maybe good for computer game however, but the discussion then would be about the learning curve, what means a fumble, what about skill > 100, etc... people would disagree of course, as usual 😛 ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlanthatemyhamster Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 On 1/30/2022 at 12:33 PM, Martin Dick said: Yes, I don't get this at all either. If I never succeed at a skill, then I never get the chance to improve it in the current system (putting aside research and training) . As it says a checked box means "This means that the adventurer has successfully used that ability in a time of crisis and may, at a future time, learn from the experience." As well, it's not a skill roll, but an experience roll and it is run completely differently to a skill roll, so it's not really a failed skill roll Play D&D then? It's a nice system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlanthatemyhamster Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 On 1/30/2022 at 12:33 PM, Martin Dick said: (putting aside research and training) Yes, let's ignore two important parts of the skills and stats system. Why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Dick Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 7 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said: Play D&D then? It's a nice system. I don't get what you are trying to say here, perhaps you were trying to be mocking or sarcastic? Perhaps you might actually reply to the content? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlanthatemyhamster Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, Martin Dick said: I don't get what you are trying to say here, perhaps you were trying to be mocking or sarcastic? Perhaps you might actually reply to the content? You seem to dislike the system at a fundamental level, why play it? Use a system more to your taste. D&D is a good system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Dick Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 7 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said: Yes, let's ignore two important parts of the skills and stats system. Why not? Ahh, now I see, attempts at sarcasm. To make it clear, putting them to one side as we've been discussing the tick-based experience system and the whole discussion has no relevance to the research and training methods of improving skills, i.e. no need for a successful use, no need to roll etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Dick Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said: You seem to dislike the system at a fundamental level, why play it? Use a system more to your taste. D&D is a good system. Wow, I must be a bit of a masochist! I started playing RuneQuest in 1981 and have played it on and off since then and not nearly as much as I would've liked to. I've run RuneQuest and HeroQuest tournaments at conventions and helped run GloranthaCon DownUnder. I must really hate RuneQuest and Glorantha! The fact that I have some problems with one small part of the system, makes it seem to you that I dislike the system at a fundamental level. Perhaps you should head to Reddit, where its the status quo to make wild assumptions and attack people. Here's what I said initially: "it is a reasonable system overall, and of course it is far far better than original D&D's level system of experience where only killing and looting helped develop a character and where levels were so generic." How does that indicate a fundamental dislike of the RQG system? Edited February 1, 2022 by Martin Dick Clarity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susimetsa Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 3 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said: You seem to dislike the system at a fundamental level, why play it? Use a system more to your taste. Most GMs homebrew the systems they use to their liking. In this case, the discussion was about how to approach the experience and skill development system differently and/or make it more realistic. I don't really see any reason to become hostile about it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darius West Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 23 hours ago, Martin Dick said: Well, they are more effort than the tick system, which is one of the advantages of them. And the D&D method of gaining experience points by killing monsters is a relic, I agree, but it is far from the only way of using them, e.g. DragonQuest, where the XP awarded is based on time played or even the milestone method option in 5e D&D. Or it could be based on specifically increasing only the skills the character actually used during the scenarios the character has been involved in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Dick Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, Darius West said: Or it could be based on specifically increasing only the skills the character actually used during the scenarios the character has been involved in. Yes, that's a pretty common method which I think RQ was sort of the first to use and I think a good restriction for games where you want to be a bit realistic. DragonQuest had the same rule that you could only increase skills that you had used in the sessions since you had last done experience, which they probably copied from RQ. It does mean of course that the GM has to be willing to provide opportunities to use all of your skills on a regular basis and not just your combat skills. But for games that want to be a bit looser, it can be fun to relax that. In the L5R campaign I run, I let players use their XP at anytime to raise any skill. All samurai are masters of riding you see, so it's perfectly natural, if all of a sudden, Mirumoto Sukune can ride. It's in tune with the manga/Hong Kong Action theatre style of story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Desperate WindChild Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 🙂 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susimetsa Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, Martin Dick said: But for games that want to be a bit looser, it can be fun to relax that. In the L5R campaign I run, I let players use their XP at anytime to raise any skill. All samurai are masters of riding you see, so it's perfectly natural, if all of a sudden, Mirumoto Sukune can ride. It's in tune with the manga/Hong Kong Action theatre style of story. I'd make that part of the narrative in some way. Simply stating that for a (couple of) week(s) the character spent their free time learning to ride and one or more of the other characters or NPCs taught/trained him. (For me, I'd also ask them to make teaching rolls etc., but that's me - I'd make case-by-case judgement on how much time needs to be invested in teaching each particular skill - some are easier to learn than others). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darius West Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, Martin Dick said: It does mean of course that the GM has to be willing to provide opportunities to use all of your skills on a regular basis and not just your combat skills. But for games that want to be a bit looser, it can be fun to relax that. In the L5R campaign I run, I let players use their XP at anytime to raise any skill. All samurai are masters of riding you see, so it's perfectly natural, if all of a sudden, Mirumoto Sukune can ride. It's in tune with the manga/Hong Kong Action theatre style of story. Perhaps, but then how do you mitigate the fellow who only ploughs XP into his primary weapon, even in situations where he didn't use it (which decrease exponentially as when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything increasingly looks like a nail)? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Desperate WindChild Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 there are for me two ways on skill based rpg: 1) characters go to adventures (or between occupation, great idea) then use skills, and these skills progress 2) characters go to adventures, "open their eyes on the world" and gain some "global progress energy", then they progress somewhere, but not necessarly in the skills they used personaly I prefer 1) I would not transform the xp system (except for lore used between adventures, I dislike this restriction), I m globaly satisfied. If I had to develop "not used skills". I would follow Ernalda teaching, there is always another way, like study / training, as RAW probably heroquest too, or just adventure dedicated to something (whatever the success or the failure, there was a path pc followed and pc learned something). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Dick Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 2 hours ago, Darius West said: Perhaps, but then how do you mitigate the fellow who only ploughs XP into his primary weapon, even in situations where he didn't use it (which decrease exponentially as when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything increasingly looks like a nail)? I don't find that a problem in my L5R campaign, for three reasons. Firstly, none of my players are like that, not that they don't min-max, some are pretty damn good at that, but they always focus on the character and the character's goals and have them develop as a part of society. Secondly, the nature of my L5R campaign is Imperial magistrates investigating crime and enforcing Imperial law in a city controlled by a clan, if they decide that everything looks like a nail, then many of the nails will turn and bite them back and they know it. One of their long-term enemies could've been easily killed by them, but it would've ended up with them executed for murder if they did it, so in the end they came up with a complex plot to get rid of him via continual audit (the Eliot Ness/Al Capone method). Basically, if you run a campaign where you need lots of different tools to succeed, the players will develop lots of different tools as opposed to carrying the one really big tool. Thirdly, in L5R as in RQ (and I really think John Wick was influenced by Glorantha when designing the game), combat is pretty lethal, regardless of how good you are, there's always someone else who can get lucky or is just stronger than you and just like the sword-tranced Humakti with a 200% Greatsword, there's lots of ways to take them down (can't parry arrows 😈). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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