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Grazelander lifestyle


GoldShogun

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Hi all, I'm interested to know more Grazelander culture and had a couple of questions related to it.

I understand that the Grazelands essentially have two types of groups, Pure horse people and the Vendref and I have questions related to both.

Beginning with the the Pure horse people. I know that they are essentially a tribe of horse nomads who rule over the Grazelands. From what I read they have a number of restrictions to keep themselves ritually pure mainly in herding only horses and practising very little other crafts. For starters do the Pure horse people have any dietary restrictions? Due to only herding horses it sounds like the only meat they are able to eat is horse but I want to know if that's an actual restriction. Can they eat other meats beside horse?

Secondly I'm curious how temples work for them. Due to being nomadic I imagine many temples are essentially just yurts with priests moving about the land but I wonder do they have temples that are permanently in one place? I have trouble imaging what a Yelm great temple looks like on horseback. On the note of temples I also wonder what resources they can provide to worshippers beside herds of horses and holy cult items considering they don't practice any actual crafts like blacksmithing. I imagine if a Sun lord of Yelm wants iron armour he's gonna have to go out and find someone elsewhere to help him craft some.

Moving onto the Vendref I have two main questions. First one being what tribute do they provide to the Pure horse people? I know they provide grain for the horses but do they give anything else? Secondly how are new Vendref communities formed, do Grazelanders go out on raids and bring back people to form new communities?

Asked quite a few questions here so I will be immensely grateful for answers for any of them!

 

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1 hour ago, GoldShogun said:

 For starters do the Pure horse people have any dietary restrictions? Due to only herding horses it sounds like the only meat they are able to eat is horse but I want to know if that's an actual restriction. Can they eat other meats beside horse?

My understanding about the Pure Horse People is that they are essentially a tribe of Pentan religious fanatics.  They were kicked out of Prax centuries ago.  The thing about being Pure Horse, is that they will never herd cattle.  That means that they likely have taboos about eating non-horse meat, but nothing is explicitly stated which likely means that are just have very conservative palates and will be leery about eating non-horse meats.  You have to assume that the Grazelanders drink a lot of horse milk, which is actually surprisingly healthy, and allegedly helps with diabetes, tuberculosis, anemia, and is anti-inflammatory and koumiss, the alcohol brewed from horse milk apparently can help regulate blood pressure irl.  It cannot be made into cheese however, without camel rennet.  Now we can reasonably assume that there is plenty of foraging going on, but the bulk of the starch and vegetables likely come from the Vendref who form a captive sub-economy.

1 hour ago, GoldShogun said:

Secondly I'm curious how temples work for them. Due to being nomadic I imagine many temples are essentially just yurts with priests moving about the land but I wonder do they have temples that are permanently in one place? I have trouble imaging what a Yelm great temple looks like on horseback. On the note of temples I also wonder what resources they can provide to worshippers beside herds of horses and holy cult items considering they don't practice any actual crafts like blacksmithing. I imagine if a Sun lord of Yelm wants iron armour he's gonna have to go out and find someone elsewhere to help him craft some.

The steppe peoples of Asia employed yurts on wagons for centuries, and there is no reason to suppose that a solar culture in Glorantha wouldn't have wagons, given that their trade god is Lokarnos.  There is nothing to suggest that a temple needs to stay in one place, especially if their people are nomadic.  if the congregation moves, so should the temple, and in my Glorantha the Grazelanders often maintain tribal temple wagon yurts that travel with them.  As to whether the Grazelander settlements of North Post, Queens Post, and Rich Post have temples to the major deities of the Grazelanders, well, Queens Post probably does, but really why would they? It is the Vendref who are the settled people, and are gradually being turned into sedentary farmers akin to the Oasis people of Prax.  

As to where a Sun Lord gets his iron armor, I would suspect he rides to Furthest with a herd of Golden Eye horses, and gets a good high price for them, and then trades for iron gear with the money.  The Lunars like to hire the Grazelanders as mercenaries, and so maintain good trade relations with them.

1 hour ago, GoldShogun said:

 First one being what tribute do the Vendref provide to the Pure horse people?

Food and vegetables is the primary tribute, as humans cannot live on horse meat and milk alone.  Next, they probably have to provide a portion of any trade goods they make.  There have been Vendref rebellions when the tribute becomes too onerous, so you can assume they Grazelanders are less-than-ideal serf masters.  It is possible for Vendref to escape the Grazelands, but they will be living free and poor for years to come, as most Gloranthan cultures aren't overjoyed at the prospect of newcomers showing up on their doorsteps.

1 hour ago, GoldShogun said:

Secondly how are new Vendref communities formed, do Grazelanders go out on raids and bring back people to form new communities?

Yes.  Not so much to form new communities but to integrate the captives into existing Vendref communities.  This is likely to increase during the Hero Wars as the Lunars and Sartarites will both attempt to ally the Grazelanders over and over again for their campaigns. One might reasonably assume that if existing villages become overpopulated that new settlements will be created for the prisoners, unless they are ransomed back to their respective peoples.

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7 minutes ago, Darius West said:

There have been Vendref rebellions when the tribute becomes too onerous, so you can assume they Grazelanders are less-than-ideal serf masters. 

And also that the Vendref at the end of the day still have Orlanthi ancestry, making them unruly slaves or serfs.

In my reading, part of what enables Orlanthi Kings to earn the King of Dragon Pass title is the implicit threat that they could stoke and support a Vendref revolt, that would be an existential threat against the Pure Horse People. They can manage the Vendref on their own, but with outside support? So it’s far preferable to ally with any sufficiently strong Orlanthi ruler, through ritual marriage.

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1 hour ago, GoldShogun said:

Beginning with the the Pure horse people. I know that they are essentially a tribe of horse nomads who rule over the Grazelands. From what I read they have a number of restrictions to keep themselves ritually pure mainly in herding only horses and practising very little other crafts. For starters do the Pure horse people have any dietary restrictions? Due to only herding horses it sounds like the only meat they are able to eat is horse but I want to know if that's an actual restriction. Can they eat other meats beside horse?

Pure Horse People can only herd horses. They can, however, eat other animals if they hunt them, I believe. I saw an early fan writeup of the Grazelanders that described them getting tribute from the Vendref, where they rode in and shot the cattle, as if hunting them.

I see Grazelanders as Theme Park Pentians.

2 hours ago, GoldShogun said:

Secondly I'm curious how temples work for them. Due to being nomadic I imagine many temples are essentially just yurts with priests moving about the land but I wonder do they have temples that are permanently in one place? I have trouble imaging what a Yelm great temple looks like on horseback. On the note of temples I also wonder what resources they can provide to worshippers beside herds of horses and holy cult items considering they don't practice any actual crafts like blacksmithing. I imagine if a Sun lord of Yelm wants iron armour he's gonna have to go out and find someone elsewhere to help him craft some.

I think that is exactly how it works. They carry their temples with them and set them up when they camp. However, they do not camp every night, they set up seasonal camps that stay in one place for a while. Each Yurt is probably a temple, or several yurts joined together make a temple.

Look at the excellent Resurrection: Ertugrul TV Series on Netflix to see how nomads use yurts. They have a smithy and a weaving house, which are good inspirations.

2 hours ago, GoldShogun said:

Moving onto the Vendref I have two main questions. First one being what tribute do they provide to the Pure horse people? I know they provide grain for the horses but do they give anything else?

Cattle, grains, leather goods and so on, probably much more.

2 hours ago, GoldShogun said:

Secondly how are new Vendref communities formed, do Grazelanders go out on raids and bring back people to form new communities?

Probably, but I am not sure they create new Vendrefi communities.

 

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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4 hours ago, GoldShogun said:

Hi all, I'm interested to know more Grazelander culture and had a couple of questions related to it.

I understand that the Grazelands essentially have two types of groups, Pure horse people and the Vendref and I have questions related to both.

Beginning with the the Pure horse people. I know that they are essentially a tribe of horse nomads who rule over the Grazelands. From what I read they have a number of restrictions to keep themselves ritually pure mainly in herding only horses and practising very little other crafts. For starters do the Pure horse people have any dietary restrictions? Due to only herding horses it sounds like the only meat they are able to eat is horse but I want to know if that's an actual restriction. Can they eat other meats beside horse?

Hunted meat is fine, even of aurochs should they return to the Pass, but meat from domestic beasts other than horses might be taboo. No idea how their dietary restrictions deal with donkeys or mules, or zebras. Praxian herd beasts might be acceptable, too, if raided and butchered quickly.

 

4 hours ago, GoldShogun said:

Secondly I'm curious how temples work for them. Due to being nomadic I imagine many temples are essentially just yurts with priests moving about the land but I wonder do they have temples that are permanently in one place? I have trouble imaging what a Yelm great temple looks like on horseback.

Annual assemblies of many clans, bringing their (ritual) yurts to the assembly places, now probably permanently settled by the three trade posts given to the FHQ by Sartar.

4 hours ago, GoldShogun said:

On the note of temples I also wonder what resources they can provide to worshippers beside herds of horses and holy cult items considering they don't practice any actual crafts like blacksmithing. I imagine if a Sun lord of Yelm wants iron armour he's gonna have to go out and find someone elsewhere to help him craft some.

Yes, like the Dwarf of Dwarf Mine.

All of human-settled Dragon Pass used to be Grazer pasture following the Inhuman Occupation, and Dwarf Mine used to be the place where such specialized craft was available.

 

4 hours ago, GoldShogun said:

Moving onto the Vendref I have two main questions. First one being what tribute do they provide to the Pure horse people? I know they provide grain for the horses but do they give anything else?

I suppose grain for the horses is the main regular tribute, plus gifts for any privileges that the Vendref merchants might want for themselves. It doesn't look like the Vendref have any higher culture except for a few scribes in Sartar's trading posts.

 

4 hours ago, GoldShogun said:

Secondly how are new Vendref communities formed, do Grazelanders go out on raids and bring back people to form new communities?

Not normally, not any more. The density of Barntar-farming villages in the Grazelands is lower than in either Sartar or Tarsh, which speaks against these villages having been brought there by the horse warlords. It looks more like the Orlanthi immigrants being too powerful in Quiviniland or Greater Tarsh for the pony breeders to subdue.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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About half the population of the Grazelands are farmers and town dwellers. They worship among others - Ernalda, Orlanth Thunderous/Barntar, Chalana Arroy, Eurmal, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Humkt, the Seven Mothers, and so on. Sound familiar? That's because they are Orlanthi. They raise grain, cattle, pigs, sheep, and other livestock, craft metal, etc. and pay a share of everything to the Feathered Horse Queen and provide her Humakti bodyguard.

The other half of the population are horse herders - the Pure Horse People or Grazeland Pony Breeders. They worship among others Yelm and Ernalda, and worship the Feathered Horse Queen as their goddess-queen. They herd horses and nothing else. They do not farm, dig in the earth, or provide manual labor for the towns. They receive tribute in the form of food and crafted goods from the towns and farms, likely actually just a part of the Feathered Horse Queen's share, although it may actually appear more as a transaction from the perspective of the towns folk.

The Pure Horse People raise their herds, fight for the Feathered Horse Queen, and serve as the best cavalry in Dragon Pass. They can eat what they want, as long as they did not pollute themselves by herding cattle or other livestock.  

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19 hours ago, Jeff said:

The other half of the population are horse herders - the Pure Horse People or Grazeland Pony Breeders. They worship among others Yelm and Ernalda, and worship the Feathered Horse Queen as their goddess-queen. They herd horses and nothing else. They do not farm, dig in the earth, or provide manual labor for the towns.

also a lot of them probably wear tall clogs to show how holy they are and/or don't bathe

Unusually Tall Ottoman Woman's Mother-of-Pearl Inlaid Wooden Stilted Clogs  (Qabqab) •

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As a related question, I’m curious, are there taboos around fraternization between Pure Horse People and Vendref, and if those taboos exist, how strict are they? Is coupling between the groups forbidden or just frowned upon, and would there be consequences for that occurring? Would the children of such a union be born disowned/illegitimate or would they inherit one of the status of one parent preferentially?

I would imagine those sorts of interactions are bound to happen even in a society as rigid and patriarchal as the Grazers. Having played Six Ages recently, I can’t help but think about the PHP-Vendref relationship as it compares to the riders-rams taboo, especially due to the significant role those interactions play in the game’s story. Any information on the topic would be of great interest to me.

Edited by hipsterinspace
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25 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

As a related question, I’m curious, are there taboos around fraternization between Pure Horse People and Vendref, and if those taboos exist, how strict are they?

My guess: formally taboo and highly forbidden, in practice much more common than either side lets on and swept under the rug. The more rigid the rules of a society, the more common it is for people will break those rules...

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In my opinion the presence of the FHQ changes the typical Solar patriarchy, as normally we would expect an asymmetrical relationship, with men being allowed to do as they want outside marriage while women are not allowed any fraternization except in secret. However the FHQ clearly can marry outsiders, and I would expect her entourage to do so too. An additional factor is that many men (and selected women) will spend long periods away from the clan, either as mercenaries or as part of the horse herds foraging around. So that creates the opportunity on both sides. 

I would expect a ceremony similar to the Romans shortly after birth, where the husband (which would be male, or a female acting as a male) either recognizes the child, and they are Pure Horse, or does not, and they are Vendref. All children outside marriage are automatically Vendref. With a twist, as the FHQ or her representatives can overturn such declaration, as she is the authority on who is Pure Horse and who is not. 

There could be a ritualized exposure, where the Vendref rescue the abandoned child, or the FHQ representative does.

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3 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

My guess: formally taboo and highly forbidden, in practice much more common than either side lets on and swept under the rug. The more rigid the rules of a society, the more common it is for people will break those rules...

Let's keep in mind quick how the Grazeland functions in the present age (rather than how the Yelm cult likes to tell stories about the good old days).

There are about 40,000 people living in the Grazelands, divided into three groups: agriculturalists, horse herders, and townsfolk. All land is "owned" by the Feathered Horse Queen who resolves all disputes between the groups, interacts with outsiders, and unites the nation. The groups are in a symbiotic relationships - the agriculturalists provide grain, fruits, vegetables, and "lesser meats", the townsfolk provide crafted goods, and the horse herders provide military protection and animal products from their herds. The horses benefit from this - the horse herders raise them and tend them, the farmers provide them with additional fodder, and the townsfolk trade part of the herds to outsiders in exchange for goods and coin which benefits everyone.

These groups are actually pretty small - there are about 18,000 farmers, 18,000 horse herders, and about 4,000 townsfolk. The area is geographically not all that big, only about a 1000 square kilometres, which actually means that the Grazelands are about as populated as the settled parts of Sartar. 

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As for 'temples', most historical nomad cultures don't need a physical location for a temple. All they need is the requisite number of worshipers. Unlike the Lunar religion, nomadic worship is far more internal than external. They require fewer physical objects and almost no structures to interact with their gods.

Yes, there are some physical locations that hold ritual significance or Power in the religion, but everyone in the faith knows where these places are and why they're sacred. These locations may not have so much as a plinth or totem pole to mark their importance.

As for the Vendref, a fair question is 'do Grazelanders worship the whole Sky /Fire /Sun pantheon or just Yelm in isolation?' If they worship the whole pantheon, I could see the Vendref caste being limited to Lodril, and other lesser deities of the Sky People, with Yelm being reserved for the horse nomads.

And I don't know if anyone has mentioned this before, but I wonder what Dara Happans or Yelmalio cultists think of Grazelander society given that this strongly paternal cult with very little in the way of female warrior roles is ruled by a strong matriarchy.

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I expanded on my post and then put it on Facebook. Here's the expanded post:

A few notes on the Grazelands
Let's keep in mind quick how the Grazeland functions in the present age (rather than how the Yelm cult likes to tell stories about the good old days).
 
There are about 40,000 people living in the Grazelands, divided into three groups: agriculturalists, horse herders, and townsfolk. All land is "owned" by the Feathered Horse Queen who resolves all disputes between the groups, interacts with outsiders, and unites the nation. The groups are in a symbiotic relationships - the agriculturalists provide grain, fruits, vegetables, and "lesser meats", the townsfolk provide crafted goods, and the horse herders provide military protection and animal products from their herds. The horses benefit from this - the horse herders raise them and tend them, the farmers provide them with additional fodder, and the townsfolk trade part of the herds to outsiders in exchange for goods and coin which benefits everyone.
 
These groups are actually pretty small - there are about 18,000 farmers, 18,000 horse herders, and about 4,000 townsfolk. The area is geographically not all that big, only about a 1000 square kilometres, which actually means that the Grazelands are about as populated as the settled parts of Sartar.
 
Ernalda, not Dendara, is the Earth Goddess. She is the spouse of Yelm AND Orlanth, and unites horse herder and farmers together. Her cult is the largest in the Grazelands - as large as Orlanth and Yelm's combined! The Ernalda cult is led by the Feathered Horse Queen. When the Pure Horse People and the Orlanthi farmers seemed destined to destroy the Grazelands, a priestesses descended into the womb of the Earth and returned with the secrets and power of Ernalda the Earth Mother, whose favors both Yelm and Orlanth must contest for.
 
The other Lightbringers are also important - more than half of all townsfolk follow one of the Lightbringers. And Humakt is also important as the primary War God.
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Key to understanding the Grazelands is that these three groups are interdependent and unified by the person of the Feathered Horse Queen. The farmers and townsfolk could easily destroy the horse herders - the Feathered Horse Queen protects the horse herders as much as she protects the farmers and townsfolk, and she finds a way that all three groups can co-exist to their mutual benefit.

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7 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Key to understanding the Grazelands is that these three groups are interdependent and unified by the person of the Feathered Horse Queen. The farmers and townsfolk could easily destroy the horse herders - the Feathered Horse Queen protects the horse herders as much as she protects the farmers and townsfolk, and she finds a way that all three groups can co-exist to their mutual benefit.

Alright. Good point.

I'd always been under the impression that Vendref caste was a conquered people who'd learned to accommodate their conquerors, that they were a subjugated people rather than a separate-but-equal society coexisting on the same patch of ground. Please excuse the Jim Crow overtones there... it's a failure of vocabulary.

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3 minutes ago, svensson said:

Alright. Good point.

I'd always been under the impression that Vendref caste was a conquered people who'd learned to accommodate their conquerors, that they were a subjugated people rather than a separate-but-equal society coexisting on the same patch of ground. Please excuse the Jim Crow overtones there... it's a failure of vocabulary.

Again this is a problem with looking at Dragon Pass from sources that largely predate the Feathered Horse Queen or Sartar.

In the 1450s, the Pure Horse People were staring at extinction. Tarsh had built up its own cavalry force and no longer needed the Pure Horse People - even worse, they were importing Praxian mercenaries! The local Orlanthi farmers who had been forced to raise grain for the Pure Horse People needed only ally with Tarsh and could be rid of the Pure Horse People. Worse yet, the Sun Lords of the Yelm cult couldn't see this and insisted that the Earth priestesses remained subservient in the traditional "Dendara role". One of the Earth priestesses descended into the womb of the Earth in search of secrets.

The Feathered Horse Queen is who emerged. She placed the farmers under her personal protection and defeated the Sun Lords in magical contests, forcing the Stallion King to submit and pledge obedience. She issued the Marriage Contest to find allies and it was Sartar the Prince who proved his worth. Sartar built trade posts with temples to the Lightbringers, issued coins, and facilitated trade through the Grazelands. The trade posts became towns where crafters congregated. 

In short, the Grazelands were radically transformed by the Feathered Horse Queen AND by Sartar into something new. Horse breeder and farmer found a way to coexist through the person of the Feathered Horse Queen. The trading posts brought wealth - but also scribes, merchants, crafters, healers, mercenaries, and the rest of the accoutrements of civilization. The Pure Horse People certainly tell stories about how they are Yelm's chosen and the spiritually elect and all that jazz. But it was the Feathered Horse Queen that allowed them to survive. And everyone knows that.

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@Jeff
This is the problem with 'narrative' or 'poetic' histories or sourcebooks. The writer's biases conflict with their opinion, the actual on-the-ground situation, previous editions, current editions and so forth. The reader is left having to sort through several different opinions, each a canon published by the developer and each true from the viewpoint of the writer, to find the objective 'truth'. A piece on Sartar written by noted Lunar author Brutus Bestius Pervo is going to look very different than one from Orlmast Orlkarthson of Boldhome.

[I've been a historical reenactor for many years and I always threaten my Roman friends that I'm going to join them with a 'Brutus Bestia Pervo,' impression. It's a completely legit name, however 'icky' it sounds 😁 🤣]

Edited by svensson
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10 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

My guess: formally taboo and highly forbidden, in practice much more common than either side lets on and swept under the rug. The more rigid the rules of a society, the more common it is for people will break those rules...

And don't forget the MOB rubric:  the more rigid the rules, the stronger the evidence the prescribed antics were a problem in the first place!

(I mean the reasoning as famously set out by MOB.  Not that he's the one that's been breaking all the rules...)

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The notion that a lot of these P[l]ent diaspora cultures have already hit a hard historical wall and reinvented themselves (charismatic revelation) is very liberating. The system FHQ transformed probably didn't work a lot like what they have on the steppe now . . . a family resemblance, yeah, but the devil is in the differences. 

It might not even have looked much like the late classical demibirth Kargzant most steppe people followed back in the 1240s. We need to send more desert trackers all the way up.

Tarsh had pretty deep reservoirs of earth magic. I guess when the Pauper came south he already had an ancestral sense of the goddess as "Ernalda" (or "OrNalda") which is interesting for people who track that kind of thing. Maybe this lore starts interacting with what the vendref brought up and uh seeds the cultural landscape for recombinant insights ahead.

It's interesting that "hyalor" is an optional eater technology in the larger Holy Country earth rites . . . lesser and greater meats.

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7 hours ago, Jeff said:

Again this is a problem with looking at Dragon Pass from sources that largely predate the Feathered Horse Queen or Sartar.

Like the RuneQuest:Glorantha core rulebook?

Quote

The Pure Horse People claim dominion over the local
farmers, who they call vendref. Vendref are of Orlanthi origin,
descendants of settlers from Esrolia and Saird enslaved by
the Pure Horse People during the resettling of Dragon Pass.
They are tied to the land, and work as bonded agriculturalists,
artisans, merchants, tradesmen, and scribes. The vendref
are not always complacent serfs, and sometimes serve their
overlords as warriors or join invading armies, and have even
moved en masse to a new location. Many among the vendref
are adroit at getting and using wealth, a skill considered to
be beneath the attention of the Pure Horse People. The Pure
Horse People must be careful how they treat the vendref, and
their rule is far lighter than that of a slave and its owner.
Vendref cannot be bought or sold, they live in their customary
villages or towns, retain half the fruits of their labor, and can
and do buy their freedom.

While not outright brutal slavery, what's written here describes a relationship about as mutually beneficial as a mafia protection racket.

I'm all for making Grazelander society a little less oppressive, but it's confusing to newer players (like myself) to come on these forums and read that apparently, the most recent materials available to purchase are completely obsolete, somehow. Will future printings of the rulebook be updated to match this new information?

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On 1/25/2022 at 9:07 AM, Jeff said:

Ernalda, not Dendara, is the Earth Goddess. She is the spouse of Yelm AND Orlanth, and unites horse herder and farmers together. Her cult is the largest in the Grazelands - as large as Orlanth and Yelm's combined! The Ernalda cult is led by the Feathered Horse Queen.

This is great news for me; my Rich Post has a major temple to Ernalda and I was worried it was a little too much like "Esrolia with horses." I will worry no more.

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12 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

This is great news for me; my Rich Post has a major temple to Ernalda and I was worried it was a little too much like "Esrolia with horses." I will worry no more.

Heh, always a bit of a sigh of relief when this happens.  Good instincts Storm Khan.

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