What are Prax hounds?

[Ian Absentia]

55 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

No one said you can't innovate, but it seems like most innovations are retroactively legitimized by reference to myths. 

There are some serious epistemological discussions to be had on this topic, including the implication of a de facto Celestial Bureaucracy charged with application, review, and stamped approval.  But clearly in a thread of their own.  In the meantime, consider me a newly-minted convert to the Red Goddess.  All Things In-Time.

!i!

[Sir_Godspeed]

19 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

There are some serious epistemological discussions to be had on this topic, including the implication of a de facto Celestial Bureaucracy charged with application, review, and stamped approval.

I rather prefer the perspective that cosmos is emergentic.

[JRE]

As I said above, not all animals can be herded by dogs. Mongols, which probably can be considered the inspiration for Pentians and many Praxian traits, only kept guard dogs (search Bankhar dogs). By the way, that is quite different from a coydog. I am not sure coydogs will be effective guardians. Alarm system yes, however. 

As for retroactive myth, I would blame the God Learners, and the inherent conservatism of the Godtime. If you innovate something that was not that way in the Godtime, it may work while you are around and people see it is a good thing. But soon the religious structure will indicate that is not how we do things, and change back. The GLs found out that if you did some fine tuning of the myth, the changes would stick, as now the religious authorities will support, or at least allow that change. Arkat did it first, but he and his followers kept the changes subtle. The GLs did it openly and excessively, and that remains in most cultures they touch, even those that more noisily reject change.

So yes, while the right way of acting is reinforced by reference to the Godtime, any major significant change will require myth manipulation. Or moving away, pick and mix your own myths and change your culture, like people like the Grazelanders or the Pol Joni do.

That is indeed one of the big charms of the Lunars, breaking away from the circle of hopeless oppression by the past.

[Darius West]

16 hours ago, Zit said:

Because there is no Praxian Myth related to herding with dogs ?

...That we know of...  Perhaps we should write one?

[David Scott]

12 hours ago, Ironwall said:

I can think of an explanation as to why the praxians wouldn't use them to herd.

11 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

No one said you can't innovate, but it seems like most innovations are retroactively legitimized by reference to myths.

Except when it's a taboo - In this case they are Waha's untrustworthy brother.

[Martin Dick]

16 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Interpretations have varied.  But if innovation and free will are precluded by the Cosmic Compromise, I'm throwing in with the Red Goddess in a way that I've never done before.

Let the Dogs Herd!

!i!

I've always understood that the Cosmic Compromise precludes innovation and free will for gods, not mortals and clearly from Gloranthan history, we see mortals innovating and demonstrating free will all over the place. Though I've always had a sneaking suspicion that some of the gods may have a little wiggle room (looking at you Midwife of Time)

[g33k]

On 3/9/2022 at 10:37 AM, Ian Absentia said:

Interpretations have varied.  But if innovation and free will are precluded by the Cosmic Compromise, I'm throwing in with the Red Goddess in a way that I've never done before.

Let the Dogs Herd!

!i!

Flip that script, Ian:  "herd dogs" is the "ordinary" of pastoralism+dogs.  Doing the same in Prax is the non-innovative thing!
;-)

[Darius West]

On 3/12/2022 at 6:01 AM, g33k said:

Flip that script, Ian:  "herd dogs" is the "ordinary" of pastoralism+dogs.  Doing the same in Prax is the non-innovative thing!
😉

You may have a point.  Praxians seem to derive a huge portion of their identity by rejecting everything that Pentans do, while at the same time being quite similar to the Pentans in many ways.  Could it be that this is a case of the narcissism of small differences at work?  That being "If those Pentan horse-and-cattle using hegemonizing filth use dogs to help with their herding, we refuse to on principle!"   Of course it is cutting off one's nose to spite one's face, but in Prax that is just ritual scarification.

[Ian Absentia]

On 3/13/2022 at 1:09 AM, Darius West said:

Could it be that this is a case of the narcissism of small differences at work? 

Or, more generously, a case of schismogenesis.

On 3/13/2022 at 1:09 AM, Darius West said:

Of course it is cutting off one's nose to spite one's face, but in Prax that is just ritual scarification.

A cultural trend (or conscious decision) to not utlitse every resource available isn't necessarily to a culture's disadvantage, particularly with comparable options available.  Nor is a trend to not use them in a singularly consistent, "optimal" fashion.  I'm on record as generally agreeing with you that the mythology don't quite wash, but if Praxians get on about their herding affairs without the benefit of dogs, as many real world cultures do, then the critique that they're "doing it wrong" is largely subjective.  Even biased.

!i!

Edited March 14, 2022 by Ian Absentia

[Darius West]

15 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Or, more generously, a case of schismogenesis.

Thanks for that.  I've not heard of it prior.

15 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

A cultural trend (or conscious decision) to not utlitse every resource available isn't necessarily to a culture's disadvantage, particularly with comparable options available. 

Okay, wait up, what comparable options in the case of using dogs for herding?  They aren't using alynxes.  What comparable saving in labor and time do they have to dogs?

15 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

or is a trend to not use them in a singularly consistent, "optimal" fashion. 

There should be a sensible pragmatic reason behind why they choose not to do so.  That reason might be religious in nature, given that the Gods are real, but it should be explicit or deducible imo.

15 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

.  I'm on record as generally agreeing with you that the mythology don't quite wash, but if Praxians get on about their herding affairs without the benefit of dogs, as many real world cultures do, then the critique that they're "doing it wrong" is largely subjective.  Even biased.

It is an unavoidable fact of history that if you don't optimize your use of resources and protect them well that you'd better be ready to lose everything, especially if you are a desert culture, as they are notoriously resource poor and survive on margins that cultures in more forgiving terrain can barely fathom.

The obvious reason for not using dogs imo would be that they are somehow inappropriate for controlling the beasts being herded.  Bison, for example may well bunch up in a ring and refuse to move while the dogs bound around them barking and nipping to no good effect.  If the herd beast, rather than running from the dog, becomes defensive, or even aggressive, then you have a problem and quite possibly dog meat on the menu.

[JRE]

I still believe dogs are the wrong animal for herding Praxian beasts. They will end up kicked, trampled, gored or just left behind. So they are useful as guardians and alarm systems, but not herding. Probably the morokanth are the only ones that would benefit from dogs for herding. Dogs will be with the non-herding contingent of the clan, the ones that walk. They probably are useful also to keep slaves under control.

If your Glorantha goes that way, maybe also bloodsports like bull baiting (and for that to work the bull has to be thethered, or the dogs have no change). 

[Baron Wulfraed]

In a totally left-field diversion... I've at times (in reading this thread) visualized these "Prax hounds" as something on the nature of a dachshund -- bred to go into vermin dens and kill the residents. After all, all those "prairie dog" holes are a danger to the legs of running herd animals 😱

[dumuzid]

11 hours ago, JRE said:

still believe dogs are the wrong animal for herding Praxian beasts.

I instead imagine packs of small bipedal dinosaurs, like compsognathus.  Nipping at bison flanks to keep the beasts moving, dodging agilely from the hooves and horns sent their way.

[davecake]

Dogs are good for herding some animals - cows and sheep, for example. But most Praxian herds are not cows or sheep. For herd dogs to be useful, the herd animals need to be slower (otherwise they tend to scatter the herds) and the herd must be at least somewhat afraid of them. I think Impala and sable might be too fast, and bison and llamas not afraid of them. 
(if you own standard llamas, it’s not uncommon to find foxes and similar predators stomped flat - I bet high llamas it’s even more so). 
of course, the Pol Joni herd cattle, but are Orlanthi enough to disdain dogs for alynxes. 

[Ian Absentia]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

(if you own standard llamas, it’s not uncommon to find foxes and similar predators stomped flat - I bet high llamas it’s even more so). 

Going farther off path (maybe?), it's not unheard of for real world shepherds to keep a guard llama among sheep.  They're known for their attentiveness, high vantage point, and protection against lone predators.  That said, they don't actually herd the sheep so much as cohabitate with them.

!i!

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Ian Absentia said:

Going farther off path (maybe?), it's not unheard of for real world shepherds to keep a guard llama among sheep.  They're known for their attentiveness, high vantage point, and protection against lone predators.  That said, they don't actually herd the sheep so much as cohabitate with them.

!i!

There are quite a few herd-guardian dogs that are the same way.

Edited March 16, 2022 by g33k

[g33k]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

... I think Impala and sable might be too fast ... 

Hence @Ladygolem's  suggestion of the Saluki, upthread.

It's worth noting that in some areas, Impala are a preferred prey species for the African wild dog aka Cape hunting dog aka painted dog, Lycaon pictus.  It isn't so much a matter of peak sprinting speed, as being fast enough, and with much greater endurance (sprinting is hard... and energetically inefficient).

Also, the typical herd-dog technique is to run WIDE, around the herd, not triggering any fleeing... and then approach from the opposite (to the desired) direction; often enough, the herd just "moves away" without any need for the nipping and dashing.  They generally aren't "chasing down" the herd.

Edited March 16, 2022 by g33k
attribution

[davecake]

On 3/17/2022 at 2:59 AM, Ian Absentia said:

Going farther off path (maybe?), it's not unheard of for real world shepherds to keep a guard llama among sheep. 

Alpaca herders usually keep some llamas with them. The llamas are very good at dealing with predators, which in turn makes the alpacas calmer and less stressed. I just imagine the alpaca thinking ‘Don’t worry about that fox, the llama will deal with it’. 

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

Alpaca herders usually keep some llamas with them.

We've got a company in our area that rents out sheep to eat scrub brush and grass.  They have used llamas to guard them (primarily against coyote).

[Ian Absentia]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

We've got a company in our area that rents out sheep to eat scrub brush and grass.  They have used llamas to guard them (primarily against coyote).

Definitely veering off-topic, I once ran into a llama hired out to do the same task.  One day I stumbled onto a llama tethered to a post on a bend in a country road, just laying beside a ditch munching on tall grass.  The next day I was out along the same bend in the road and the llama was gone...but so was all of the tall grass, and you could now see on-coming traffic on the other side.  Clever, if initially startling.

Please don't ask me about the goats.

!i!