Human Race, Ethnicity, and Dragon Pass

[Storm Khan]

Oh, boy. Here is a lightening rod thread. Still, I have to ask: Do Lunars present a different ethnicity and/or race from the native inhabitants of Dragon Pass?

Would Lunar Tarsh present as a sort of "Mestizo" ethnicity/race?

Do Praxians share the same race as Heortlanders? Esrolians? Grazelanders?

Why not tackling racism in my game? I've always looked for trouble. Why stop now? 😏

 

[AndrewTBP]

They’re all Wareran in the canon, the Men-and-a-Half of Prax are obviously different, the Westerners in Malkonwal are likely to be different. 
See Guide to Glorantha pp. 18 for details. 
 

Edited February 13, 2022 by AndrewTBP

[Richard S.]

From the Guide, there's four races of humans: Agimori (Pamaltelans), Veldang (also Pamaltelans, but slate blue), Vithelans (Kralorela, Teshnos, East Isles, and Vormain), and Warerans (the rest of Genertela). Nearly everyone in Dragon Pass is going to be Warerans, though of course the Men-and-a-Half are Agimori and you'll definitely find some Veldang and Vithelans around the holy country. It's not really a terribly important thing in Glorantha.

[Squaredeal Sten]

Seems to me that as far as Gloranthan humans are concerned,

1) "Other' starts outside your tribe, within humanity.  It starts outside your clan for some people and purposes.  "Me and my brother against my cousin".

2) As far as "race' goes the near "other' for humans is maybe baboons then a step beyond them is Uz 

-   then the even less familiar Ludoch who breathe water and Aldryami, who breathe air but are plants (but still have the man rune?)

-  then one or two steps beyond that, the chaotics: ogres, broos.  Most of which will be recognized as having the man rune, but chaos matters much more.

At any rate skin color would seem to be a clue to ethnicity but 'race' does not mean skin color.

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

Oh, boy. Here is a lightening rod thread. Still, I have to ask: Do Lunars present a different ethnicity and/or race from the native inhabitants of Dragon Pass?

Would Lunar Tarsh present as a sort of "Mestizo" ethnicity/race?

Do Praxians share the same race as Heortlanders? Esrolians? Grazelanders? .....

 

Ethnicity and race are definitely different concepts in the RW.  I have always interpreted Gloranthan ethnicity to begin inside homelands:  that is, Sartarite is not an ethncity; Heortling and Esrolian and Grazelander and Praxian and Pelorian are ethnicities. 

Maybe the Tarshites are 'mestizos", I'm not all that clear on their history. 

But RW, ethnicity is much more a cultural thing than a genetic thing.  I have gone to school with a Mexican [ethnicity]  of Chinese descent.  

Having said that, i have no canon reference for ethnicity being a Gloranthan concept, as I've not seen the word used in Stafford's writings.   It's just a players' concept:  Heortling and Grazelander are different ethnicities to me, different 'peoples" (a fuzzy concept) to my characters.    And "race' in the Gloranthan context is found in "elder race', that is Aldryami are a different and older race from humans, with really alien physiology and psychology.

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
punctuation

[metcalph]

I don't have much time for the classification of Warerans as Warera bears as much importance to the gloranthans of west-central Genertela as the Caucasus mountains do for the Europeans.   Linguistic relationships and identities are much more palatable to speculate about.  

[Ladygolem]

I don't see 'race' really existing in Glorantha, at least not in the way it does in our world. Clan, tribe and cult matter way more than arbitrarily significant variations in skin pigmentation.

The Lunar Empire doesn't care what you look like as long as you acknowledge the Red Emperor's rule. Sartarite clans are more concerned with clan allegiance; blood descent from individual heroes or royalty matters for chiefs and princes but irrelevant for the average cottar.

In the RQ:G character creation rules, it's noted that the homeland of your parents or grandparents doesn't have to match yours. The grandchild of a Praxian who settles in Boldhome and adopts Sartarite ways is a Sartarite, no caveats. There's a reason the language used is "Homeland", not "Ethnicity" or "Race".

In addition, in the adventure materials published so far we see a variety of complexions etc. among the various NPCs, without any particular remark or narrative significance.

In short: people of all appearances live in Glorantha and it doesn't really matter to anyone (outside of Fonrit, but that's a whole other thing) (and Teleos but that's basically a joke)

[Nick Brooke]

Some general statements on appearance from the Guide to Glorantha:

“The Orlanthi are olive-skinned, with brown, black, or reddish hair; a small minority has golden blond hair. Their eyes are typically green, brown, grey, or orange.“

”Pelorians tend to be light-skinned (ranging from pale to olive), with brown to blonde hair. Brown and blue eyes are prevalent.”

As I recall, Greg and Jeff called the Orlanthi “bronze people” and the Pelorians “gold people.” But their homelands/regions are both ethnic melting-pots: Pelorian ancestors, just like Sartarite and Tarshite ancestors, came from all sorts of places and included all sorts of weird and indeed non-human folks. Ethno-nationalism is a non-starter in Third Age Glorantha.

Frankly, I wouldn’t do anything to limit players’ choices regarding their adventurer’s appearance; and obsessing too much about pure racial genotypes is weird. (Unless you’re a Mistress Race troll, then you’ve got something to be proud of)

[Jape_Vicho]

The only weird thing with all this is how the praxian tribes are described and drawn very differently from each other. 

Does the High Llama people come from Krarorela? Are the Impala and Ostrich tribes Agimori? How do they maintain their different complexions if they have been interbreeding since the tribes were founded, is there magic involved in that? Like, a male Bison Rider marries a female Sable Rider and goes to live with them and they have a child and then some magical Waha stuff happens and their child is a perfectly looking Sable Rider?

[David Scott]

31 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

The only weird thing with all this is how the praxian tribes are described and drawn very differently from each other. 

Rather than get into a whole genetic thing with players, I say it's the due to the rune each tribe is tied to. So children of an inter-tribal union will look more like one or other parent depending on the tribe they are brought up in (and thus rune strength). The only exception is with the morokanth, where the child is always the same as the respective mother. The next generation's children will look no different from the rest of the tribe. Inter-tribal unions are rare except amongst inter-tribal cult members.

39 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Are the Impala and Ostrich tribes Agimori?

The pygmy tribes and the men-and-a-half are not related, and would rarely if at all produce children, due to the men-and-a-half's special fertility needs.

38 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Like, a male Bison Rider marries a female Sable Rider and goes to live with them and they have a child and then some magical Waha stuff happens and their child is a perfectly looking Sable Rider?

In this case the child will look more like a sable rider and their children look just like sable riders.

[soltakss]

11 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

Do Lunars present a different ethnicity and/or race from the native inhabitants of Dragon Pass?

If you want.

11 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

Would Lunar Tarsh present as a sort of "Mestizo" ethnicity/race?

If you want.

11 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

Do Praxians share the same race as Heortlanders? Esrolians? Grazelanders?

Generally yes, but their ethnicity is far more important than their race.

So, Grazelanders descend from Pure Horse People, who descend from Pent. So, their ethnicity is Grazelander.

Each Praxian Nation has its own ethnicity, similar but not the same. So, Ostrich Riders are generally small, otherwise they can't ride Ostriches. 

34 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

The only weird thing with all this is how the praxian tribes are described and drawn very differently from each other. 

Mythically, they were people who lived in Genert's Garden. Many different people lived in Genert's Garden.

33 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Does the High Llama people come from Krarorela?

Maybe, their ancestors might have been Kralori who lived in Genert's Garden.

35 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Are the Impala and Ostrich tribes Agimori?

No.

The Agimori are Men-And-A-Half, very tall humans. Ostrich Riders are short and I think the same applies to Impala Riders. They are not Agimori in nature.

36 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

How do they maintain their different complexions if they have been interbreeding since the tribes were founded, is there magic involved in that? Like, a male Bison Rider marries a female Sable Rider and goes to live with them and they have a child and then some magical Waha stuff happens and their child is a perfectly looking Sable Rider?

Marriage between different Nations is rare, at least I think so.

Marriage between different Tribes of the same Nation is common, though.

When two very different people marry, their children have attributes of both parents, in my game.

So, a Bison Rider marrying a High Llama Rider produces someone who might look like both, or either.

A Bison Rider marrying an Ostrich Rider might produce a tall child, unsuitable for riding an Ostrich.

An Ostrich Rider marrying a High Llama Rider might produce a very short child, unsuited to riding on adult High Llamas.

But, appearance-wise, they might look like either, or both ethnicities.

In my Glorantha, Sun Domers tend to look very similar, with fair or brown hair and blue, green or, occasionally, golden eyes. That is because they generally marry other Sun Domers. Converts marrying into Sun Domer families might mix it up a bit, so there is variability, but not a lot.

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

Oh, boy. Here is a lightening rod thread. Still, I have to ask: Do Lunars present a different ethnicity and/or race from the native inhabitants of Dragon Pass?

The Gloranthan concept of human race is rather broader than the categories used in the fallacious categories in US documentation or Third Reich persecutions.

There are four major human races, generally of varied mythical (and thereby real) origins.. Skin color follows general guidelines, but varies inside each of the categories.

Of the four main human races, the Wareran phentype has the most varied skin kolorations unless you count the Teleos phenomenon for the Agimori spectrum of skin colorations.

Each group has several approaches to ancestry - there are made ancestors, often from clay and other elemental portions, there are ancestors who were beasts or plants (or, if you are nitpicky, demigod or divine beasts and plants), there are ancestors who were deities, demigods or spirits, and there are claims that there were ancestors as direct expressions of the man rune (in effect, another type of demigods).

Non-aldryami humans claiming descent from trees are rare, but Entekosiad mentions such in the Wareran spectrum.

 

There has been a lot of interbreeding between humans of different origins, and finding pure-blooded descendants of a specific mythical origin is fairly hard outside of the Brithini, Vadeli and Men-and-a-half. And even the Brithini and Vadeli confess to mathical admixture to their ancestry.

 

9 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

Would Lunar Tarsh present as a sort of "Mestizo" ethnicity/race?

Lunar Tarsh outside of the lowland cities is predominantly Heortling in ancestry, much like Sartar. The Lunarized cities have a strong portion of immigrant Dara Happans and other Pelorians, bringing their own phenotypes.

(Just out of morbid curiousity, how does "Mestizo" differentiate from "Lationo"?).

The phenotypes of Peloria have some regional variations, but all are within the Wareran spectrum. I'll discuss a few special cases in separate posts to keep this reply legible and under the "critical word count"...

 

9 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

Do Praxians share the same race as Heortlanders? Esrolians? Grazelanders?

Looking at your extremely narrow definition of race, I wonder whether you would class Bison riders within the same race as Sable Riders, let alone the pygmy Impala Riders. Praxians take slaves, and descendants of female slaves are accepted into their tribes as free (but usually poor) people (unless pleasing their fathers). Male slaves don't usually get to sire offspring, although some might escape emasculation, and might even be allowed to participate in Eirithan fertility rites. There is evidence to the contrary that Argrath was gelded...

Again, I'll separate out my detailed reply for the sake of legibility.

Shorter answer, the High Llama, Bison, Sable and Rhino riders are mostly normal sized humans of the Wareran type, with skin coloration ranging in a spectrum similar to that of the Sartarites or the Pol Joni. The Impala Riders are very dark-skinned pygmies and may be considered something different from the Wareran race or at least a highly variant branch of that race. Heortlanders and Esrolians are phentypically the same as the majority of the Tarshites. Sun Dome Templars in Tarsh and Sartar may resemble the Solar Wareran phenotype of fair hair accompanying a medium brown skin, a trait also found dominating (but not exclusive) among the Grazelander rider population and the Zebra Riders of Pavis and Prax. Urban Tarsh has imported a significant amount of people from the Heartlands, with Dara Happan (noble and peasant) ancestry and other regional ethnicities. The Lunar dynasty of Tarsh has Doblian and Red Emperor (i.e. Rinliddic, from Teelo Norri) ancestry admixed to the Illaro lineage of Heortlings. This might result in red or black hair and medium brown skin from Hon-eel's ancestry, and the usual brown or orange Heortling hair .and olive (medium brown) skin tones from the Illaro and Sorana Tor side. Moirades' mother probably was from a Sylilan noble family with all manner of possible ancestry, Pharandros' mother was Fazzur's sister and thus of mainly Heortling ancestry, Moirades daughter has the FHQ as her mother, with mixed Grazer and even some Sartar (the hero) ancestry, and Phargentes II has more Eel-Ariash and unknown Heartland (Reclusus) ancestry in addition to every Red Emperor's magical Red Goddess maternity.

 

9 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

Why not tackling racism in my game? I've always looked for trouble. Why stop now? 😏

Race is much less an issue than ancestry in both the biological and ethnic sense. (Unless you want to use the even more flawed Third Reich definition of race of the already deeply flawed US definition of race that continues the fallacies of the Imperial Age colonialism race theory which wasn't based on strict application of the scientific method but working backwards from an expectation of superiority.)

Mixed ancestry is pretty much the norm. I'll point out some mixtures in subsequent posts, and also a few potentially "pure" lineages.

[Storm Khan]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

If you want.

Looking at the responses, I think that sums up Glorantha's position on race/ethnicity.

It is a question I needed to ask because I have a Lunar Tarsh NPC in Dragon Pass, 1624, travelling with Tarshites / Heortlanders / Praxians / Esrolians, and I need to gauge how much trouble she'll attract just by existing with the rebels.

Since it is what I want, I want her ethnicity to be something others have to detect with an Insite (Human) roll.

Rolls bring uncertainty, and uncertainty brings drama!

[Storm Khan]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

(R)ace is much less an issue than ancestry in both the biological and ethnic sense. (Unless you want to use the even more flawed Third Reich definition of race of the already deeply flawed US definition of race that continues the fallacies of the Imperial Age colonialism race theory which wasn't based on strict application of the scientific method but working backwards from an expectation of superiority.)

I have seen/read about flawed definitions of race driving horrific behavior.

My question ultimately is, in a world of a horrific Crimson Bat and a horrific Great Winter, is a flawed definition of race another kind of horror I want to introduce?

Arcane, an animated series close to my heart, does not have LGBTQ bias portrayed even though a central romantic plotline involves two women. I support that creative decision; it is among the best of any shows I have seen, animated or live-action.

Regarding all kinds of bias, it seems I have a lot of creative freedom in my Glorantha, too.

[Joerg]

So, Gloranthan races and ancestry...
 

The Heortlings and their Vinfkotling, Helering and Dureving ancestors are some of the least endogamous peoples you will find. The Vingkotling founding myths tel about exo-marriages.

Vingkot was the demigod son of Orlanth and the human woman Janerra Alone of the On Jorri people of the southern Oslir Valley - a portion of Peloria that was saved from the Flood by Orlanth and his followers, so probably somewhere in northern Saird, Sylila or the Provinces.

Vingkot married twin daughters of Tada, thus the Heortlings share ancestry with the Oasis people of Prax.

Vingkot's daughters married outsiders. The Berennethtelli have Hyaloring horse rider ancestry from Nivorah, the Orgorvaltes have Hyaloring ancestry which may have come to them via Nivorah, or from the followers of Yamsur via Genert's Garden. Three other tribal ancestors are Goralf Brown, Porscriptor the Cannibal and Kastwall Five. Little to nothing is known about the ethnic background of these three.

Four Star Captains (Orlanthi heroes or demigods who participated in Orlanth's conquest of the Skies) are the ancestors of Vingkotling Star tribes.

We know the origin Kodig's wife - an Earth priestess from Nochet, ultimately descended from the Ezel earth worshipping humans/demigods. There doesn't seem to be any information on the wives of Korol, Janard Lastralgor or Jorganos the Archer, but there is a chance that they brought back wives or at least concubines from their first raid against Dara Happa. (I'd like to point out that there are consensual forms of wife raiding, too.) I don't know whether there are or were any Heortiings who can claim descent from Janard Lastralgor. The male lineage of Kodig (or at least the royal male lineage) has died out iin the Greater Darkness, but his daughters and granddaughters etc. contribute to the ancestry of Nochet and Esrolia.

The Vingkotlings would have exchanged daughters as wives with their fellow Vingkotlings, and with other tribes around them. Sons too, but to a much lesser extent. Orlanthi tribes of different descent like e.g. the Aramites or the Entruli will have intermarried with the Heortlings, too. Earlier, the Durevings and the Helerings exchanged wives with other native humans they encountered, too. 

The Pelaskite survivors of Karse are now integraed in the coastal popzlation of Heortland and to a lesser extent of God Forgot and Esrolia, and will have intermarried rather frequently and freely with the Pelaskite survvors (and descendants) at Serid Yarkassa who spread to the Rightarm Isles, potentially to God Forgot and certainly to Mirrorsea-adjacent Caladraland and Esrolia. They also interbred readily with visiting sailors, such as Waertagi, Middle Sea empire sailors from all over their world, and more recently vsitors after the Closing or foreign wives e,g, from Melib, Teshnos, Handra, the Quinpolic League or even Maslo or Fonrit brought back home. A certain amount of Wolf Pirate ancestry will have been added, too, when women abducted in those coastal raids could be ransomed back pregnant or with offspring.

 

There are places well known for haing experienced interbreeding - take for instance the Praxians.

Following the Battle of Argentium Thri'ile, clans of Bison Riders and Sable Riders settled down as new nomad overlords over the sedentary people of Kostaddi and the Dara Happan parts of Sylila, Following the Battle of Eleven Beasts, something similar may have happened in eastern Fronela. There is no mention of Impala-descended Pelorians, or High Llamas found in the region.

Boshan was conqured by Sheng Seleris, and quite a few of his Praxian followers went native there, becoing a warrior nobility of the place and doubtlessly taking concubines or even wives from the local population. They are a part of Godunya's empire now.

Teshnos has been raided by Praxians since their exodus into Genert's wastes, and they will have taken slaves from there, especially female ones whose offspring then would have become regular tribesfolk. A similar fate will have been met by Dragon Pass folk, Sun County and Pavis County peasants, and there is a high likelihood that most Oasis Folk have Praxian Beast Rider paternity in their lineages, too.

Morokanth and Impala Riders take slaves, too, and there will be some interbreeding between female slaves to the Impala tribe and their male owners. The Morokanth may have the occasional awakened Herd Man (or Herd Woman) in their tribe, and those might be allowed to breed with human slaves, too, but overall the admixture of humans from the pre-Waha Morokanth rider ancesty to extant humannity will be rather low. Likewise, there will be the occasional/exceptional Awakened High Llama, Bison, Sable Antelope, Impala, Rhino, Ostrich or Bolo Lizard in those respective tribes as full tribal members, although with very limited expectations to sire or give birth to inelligent offspring. They may be ritually married to humans in the tribe, and adopt human offspring of their marriage partners.

 

Hsunchen are weird in their humans generally adopting the racial phenotype of the neighboring non-Hsunchen humans. Quite a few of those neighbors may be Hsunchen-descended but at some point in the past converted to the human culture of their neighbors and losing their direct beast connection. Especially the eastern expension of Malkionism is full of such Hsunchen-descended population, and also much of Kralorela.

The Hsunchen of Pamaltela generally have Agimori traits, although there are several subtypes of Agimori they could be modeled on, including the pygmy tribes of the Errinoru jungle who might be the archetype for small-bodied Pamaltelan Hsunchen/Fiwan.

There are two general ethnicities labeled Agimori, those who originated south of the Fense mountain ranges whose ancestors migrated north (mainly to Banamba and Laskal and from there into the rest of Fonrit), and those from Thinobutu who migrated to the coasts and coastal islands including Kumanku, and Loral. There also were migrations of holy Chaos fighters into the north, resulting in the men-and-a-half of Prax, and after the Gbaji Wars the Pithdarans of Nolos. The Teleosians are labeled as Agimori, but it isn't clear whether they were part of the Man-and-a-Half migration who remained on Teleos, or whether they were one of the waves of exodus from sunk Thinobutu or the sunk initial refugee lands. The Agimori/Doraddi claim to be (mainly) Made People from clay and other ingredients, created by Pamalt and seveal of his Necklace buddies, while the Thinobutans have the great spirit Soli as the sole shaper of clay etc. to create their four pairs of ancestors from four differently hued types of clay, who then proceeded to breed in all available combinations of coloration creating a spectrum reaching from light gray/brown or red to black in skin colorations. On the whole, Thinobutan-descended Agimori are lighter skinned than Doraddi-descended Agimori, as attested for Thinokos in Fonrit.

The Exigers of the eastern Tarmo and western Mari mountains are of unclear and by now probably mixed ancestry. Their culture doesn't have any vestiges of Doraddi lineage plant ancestral worship, which makes a former Hsunchen/Fiwan origin as good an alternative, and as a third possibility a branch off the Kimos people unwilling to continue the eternal fighting against the Gorgers. Or, as a fourth possibility, an exotic origin from other demigod beings taking human form, possibly including dryads and other genii loci

There are no (known) Hsunchen conforming to the Veldang race, peoples of a planetary (or Lunar) origin with generally blue hues of skin coloration. Two major groups are known, the Artmali whose voluntary and involuntary migrations spread them to southeastern, central southwestern and central northwestern Pamaltela, with the central southwestern population mostly destroyed by the Skyspill that created the Nargan Desert, and the Zaranistangi Loper people whose main migration ended in Melib and Teshnos, although they sent a significant contingent to Ralios during the final years of the Seshnegi crusade against the Stygian Autarchy, from where they migrated south into Slontos before being genocided there. Their domination over parts of Teshnos ended with the establishment of the Middle Sea Empire Colony of Eest first on Melib, later also in the Teshnan mainland.

 

Wareran ancestry was spread by both the Brithini-descended mortals and the Lightbringer missionaries.

The Kachisti Speaking Tour established cities in the Hykimi (Hsunchen) lands of the Genertelan Greatwood, including modern Fronela, Ralios and Seshnela, and possibly Slontos.

The Vadeli enslaved vast portions of anciesnt Danmalastan, also including the Kachisti of Genertela but mainly the Kadeniti and Tadeniti populations and some of the Enrovalini population of the lowlands outside of Brithos, and as a guess I would expect survivors of this enslavement to make up a significant of the human population of Slon. Which makes a Wareran phenotype for the Dinosaur hsunchen of Slon a possible alternative to an Agimori appearance. The rest of the Slon humanity may have other Hsunchen, Veldang, Doraddi or Thinobutan ancestry, making a racial categorisation as difficult as for the mixed Torab slave population of Fonrit which includes Veldang, Doraddi, and to a lesser extent Thinokan and Umathelan ancestry.

As vile as Vadeli culture is, they seem to adhere as strictly to the taboo against interbreeding as the Orthodox Brithini of Brithos, Sog City and Arolanit. Less orthodox Brithini found interbreeding with their Malkioni cousins acceptable, and potentially even undamaging to their prospects of extreme longevity, at least during the Dawn Age and Middle Sea Empire. The Closing prevented any further exodus from Brithos, but maybe Zzabur's ethnical cleansing had already been sufficient to clean up the Brithini population from dissident thinking.

The non-orthodox Brithini Malkioni were fairly open to interbreeding with non-Malkioni, assigning them appropriate caste designations once they accepted them into their domain. (The strictly endogamous Aeolian Esvulari are a bit of a headache, there, as is their relationship to the somewhat more enigmatic Ingareens and true Brithini of God Forgot. But then their total population is less than that of Nochet.)

The Waertagi are a hybrid race of ancient westerrners claiming descent from Malkion or the Logicians and the Wartain mertribe. They seem to have normal human life-spans, and there are known cases of interbreeding with coastal populations e.g. in Nolos, although they also maintained ethnically separate colonies during the Closing on the Edrenlin archipelago and in Sog City. The riverine Waertagi of the Janube, Poralistor and Oronin rivers on the other hand seem to have left mixed offspring on the shores, possibly explaining the Dona culture of riverine Fronela, the Harangvats of the Sweet Sea, the Oroninans of Carmania, and the Castle Blue population. There may be Waertagi descendants on the White Sea, too - there definitely are some on the Thunder Delta, and probably a few crewing vessels on the Oslir and Arcos rivers, too. Still, the Waertagi ships probably are crewed by Waertagi with rather little non-Waertagi or non-Triolini admixture. Half-breeds born to the ships might be encouraged to seek unions with Triolini, or to leave for a iife on the shores if they feel attraction to non-Waertagi.

 

Other than the Hsunchen, I wonder whether the Ludoch follow the race of the neighboring humans or whether they all are Wareran in appearance. There are four major Ludoch kingdoms, two in the East Isles, one in the Marthino Sea and one in the Solkathi Sea, Rozgali Sea and adjacent coastal waters. The latter clearly are of Wareran phenotype, and probably direct kin to the Waertagi, but I don't know about the other three groups. Do the Marthino Ludoch resemble the Thunobutan-descended humans e.g. of the Maslo Sea? (And does that mean they resemble the Doraddi or Men-and-a-Half?) And do the east Isles Ludoch facial types resemble the nearby islanders and the Zabdamar women more than they do resemble the Choralinthor Ludoch?

 

And how comes that the places with the most widespread interbreeding (Fonrit and Melib) have Veldang admixture?

[Joerg]

Equestians and race:

The RQG rules state both physical and runic variations between the major human tribes. Zebra Riders share some of the same ancestry as the Grazelanders, they are descendants of the Pentan Pure Horse Tribe settled in western and northern Prax by the early Second Age Kingdom of Orlanthland as a buffer to Beast Rider (and troll) raiding. These early Pentans share the blond hair and brown skin phenotyp with the Yelmic nobility of Dara Happa (which also spread out to much of Peloria during the Anaxialian dynasty) as an in-bred elite, although on the fringes exchanging wives with other nobility. After their defeats at Argentium Thri'ile and subsequent ethnic cleansing throughout western and central Peloria, the Pentans moved further east and got into contact with northern Kralorela and the Shan Shan Hsunchen.

Much like the Praxians, the Pentans take slaves from sedentary populations, and the offspring of those slaves will be raised as riders among the nomadic clans, while Pentans lording over sedentary people may not adopt such offspring usually. Still, those who qualify as riders will be integrated into the clan and tribe regardless of their maternity, if usually at significantly lower status than offspring from marriages or fertility rites. As a result, there will be Pentans with more or less strong Kralori phenotypical admixture. While this is mainly my personal head-canon, I think that the Char-un are a case of stronger Kralori admixture than the Pure Horse Folk of Prax ever had.

Horse Nomad leaders also take trophy wives, and their distinguished warriors probably are awarded, such, too.

Hyalor himself was a descendant of Yamsur and his hippogriff-riding solar tribe of Genert's Garden, and thereby probably also a descendant of Tada through a maternal lineage. He or a desccendant/reincarnation bearing the same name came to Nivorah with his Hyal horse joining the Gamari exodus with their Sered horses. Beren the Rider led a group of non-Pure Horse riders to join the Vingkotlings. Another branch of Pure Horse riders became he Hyaloring overlords of the dryer parts of Darjiin in the Grey Age, and their king Vuranoste succeeded a son of Jenarong as the third emperor of the Jenarong "dynasty" (a dynasty defined by the rites they used to ascend to the imperial throne rather than by ancestry). This brought his peopla into contact with and overlordship of other horse warlords, leading to admixture with the Zarkosian goad-herding charioteers. By the battle of Argentium Thri'ile, horse riding had replaced the chariots as the main force of the horse warlords, with chariots relegated to ceremonial use in those tribes that maintained their charioteer noble lineages.

Ulanin the Rider was a descendant of Hyalor, too, but as said before, I am not sure whether he came to the Quivin region via Nivorah or through Genert's Garden and the Redwood savannah of Prax. It isn't quite clear whether he brought and his horse-herding followers and a significant amount of Hyal horses. In the Vingkotling era, the main Orgorvaltes horses appear to have been exchanged for or interbred with the Galana hill ponies that originated in eastern Safelster but became omnipresent south of the Rockwood Mountains already in the Storm Age.

The Second Council of the Theyalans also brought Ralian Galanini horse riding mercenaries to battle the Pelorian Horse Warlords, who may have been Enerali or nomadic (more Hsunchen-like) nomadic Galanini, but I doubt that any Pelorian population that just had been liberated from one horse rider type of overlord would have accepted a new type of horse rider overlords.

 

[Scorus]

As far as biological race, they are all Warerans as others have pointed out. But the term race is often misused in order to create an 'Other' and dehumanize. In the past, Northern Europeans have claimed that Southern Europeans were a different race. Jews of multiple races have been lumped into a single race. Some Hutus claimed that Tutsis were a different race.

That said, when there are actual other races as in Glorantha people are not nearly as likely to confuse race and culture. A Pelorian might look at a Praxian as something different, but not that different when viewed next to Morokanth and Agrimori. It is also unnecessary since they can define that Other by cultural and religious differences.

[Storm Khan]

9 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Frankly, I wouldn’t do anything to limit players’ choices regarding their adventurer’s appearance; and obsessing too much about pure racial genotypes is weird.

This question revolves, for me, around a Lunar Tarsh NPC. The time is early 1624. Memory of the Great Winter is fresh in people's minds and Notchet is still under siege. If she is readily identifiable as Lunar, how much danger is she in of being lynched by a furious crowd in Esrolia?  

I am ignoring your concern with me being "weird," for now.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Storm Khan said:

This question revolves, for me, around a Lunar Tarsh NPC. The time is early 1624. Memory of the Great Winter is fresh in people's minds and Notchet is still under siege. If she is readily identifiable as Lunar, how much danger is she in of being lynched by a furious crowd in Esrolia?  

I would expect Runic and/or Cultic affiliations to be the issue, not "race."
Given intermarriage, I doubt most issues of skin-color / hair-color / etc raise any eyebrows in broader cultural/public contexts.  Also, much of Tarsh is Orlanthi in origin!

What very well MAY give her away, however, are tats!  If she sports Moon-rune or other 7M /Lunar signs, that could be a problem...

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by g33k

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, Storm Khan said:

This question revolves, for me, around a Lunar Tarsh NPC. The time is early 1624. Memory of the Great Winter is fresh in people's minds and Notchet is still under siege. If she is readily identifiable as Lunar, how much danger is she in of being lynched by a furious crowd in Esrolia?  

I am ignoring your concern with me being "weird," for now.

What would give her away as living in Lunar territory would be the language. Pretty much every Tarshite speaking Orlanthi is living under the rule of the Lunar Empire, with the exception of some Vendref in the Grazelands and possibly Black Horse Country.

She can always try and claim being a refugee from Lunar injustice of some kind.

She is about going to be as popular as a German shortly after one of the world wars, being asked what she did during that time.

[French Desperate WindChild]

as other  I m not sure the issue is race:

when you worship your god with satyres and centaurs, trade with troll, and eat newtling, I m not sure the human physical differences are really important

 

the point is more the culture, the country , the god , the other represents. so yes you lunar tarshite will face some issue if

she speaks lunar and not tarshite

she shows lunar gods runes

she explains the red goddess is the best one and she loves the red emperor and appreciate chaos magic

 

if not... how to see a difference between an orlanthi tarshite and a lunar tarshite ?

then the point is more what the npc think about tarshites ? because they are not from their clan / tribe / kingdom, not because their skin color

[Nick Brooke]

2 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

This question revolves, for me, around a Lunar Tarsh NPC. The time is early 1624. Memory of the Great Winter is fresh in people's minds and Notchet is still under siege. If she is readily identifiable as Lunar, how much danger is she in of being lynched by a furious crowd in Esrolia?

Tarshite people with Tarshite accents can be found in Lunar Tarsh, but also in Old Tarsh (i.e. the fanatically anti-Lunar Tarsh Exiles based around Wintertop) and in northern parts of Sartar (i.e. the Far Point region, which used to be East Tarsh). Anyone lynching random people for "sounding Tarshite," "looking Tarshite" etc. is an idiot. So: how dumb are your Esrolians?

A much bigger risk than "looking like a Tarshite" or "sounding like a Tarshite" would be if this NPC was openly worshipping Lunar deities, carrying a scimitar, had a honking great Moon Rune tattoo, etc. But plenty of Esrolians do those things, too - the Red Earth Alliance was extremely popular, after all - and this is the land of "There is always another way" (where alternatives to violence are greatly to be preferred). So you may be worrying too much.

[Storm Khan]

Noting you are ignoring the "Lunar" part in the Lunar Tarsh.

Noting "idiot" statement.

Noting you are ignoring the Great Winter part of my statement.

I think I know more about human history and nature than you do, way more.

You're a moderator? Great job.

Please, shut down my profile before I do.

C yah

 

 

 

[Bill the barbarian]

19 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

Why not tackling racism in my game? I've always looked for trouble. Why stop now? 😏

 

This a great hill to die upon brother, but might I shine a light on this early statement. It will make the battle easier. Google (Duck, Duck, Go for me) “myth" and “race" in your preferred phrasing, accept your preferred sources and you will be down a rabbit hole so deep. Seriously folk, I have not read any other posts in this thread yet, but this word did light up for me and make me wish to put this down before reading the replies.

Very few folk with any academic or scientific heft believe in the concept of races (sorry Boston Marathoners) these days. I hope this is only one of many posts that bring up the fallacy, and the resulting pathology, of the belief in races. It does hold us back.

 

16 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

   And "race' in the Gloranthan context is found in "elder race', that is Aldryami are a different and older race from humans, with really alien physiology and psychology.

 

Agreed. and this is where is should stay.

 

13 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

I don't see 'race' really existing in Glorantha, at least not in the way it does in our world. Clan, tribe and cult matter way more than arbitrarily significant variations in skin pigmentation.

 

I think this is true. In my fantasy (and thus my fantasy world) this is true.

 

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

Rather than get into a whole genetic thing with players, I say it's the due to the rune each tribe is tied to.

Thanks, quite correct. Runic not genetic, and seeing as none of these beings have genes... I say the humans here are far more alien than we thought them to be. 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Eff]

Glorantha is roughly based on the ancient Mediterranean, where you could find people of every skin tone- to the point where in Roman art it is trivial to find examples of all six of the Fitzpatrick scale categories which sort skin color from lightest to darkest based on response to ultraviolet light. So I suspect that "race" in Glorantha is fundamentally an attempt to sort humans into categories like the four systems of magic, the four otherworlds, etc. rather than a straightforward attempt to put humans in Glorantha into real-world racial categories. Because you have Agimori (southern/animist), Vithelans (eastern/mystical), Warerans (western/sorcerous) and Veldang (above/lunar), with Wareran also incorporating northern/theistic origins because the God Learners or whomever couldn't successfully invent a clean split there, unlike the Ocean and the Wastes serving as clean splits to divide the other "races" of humanity.

And of course while Glorantha is roughly based on the ancient Mediterranean, in fine detail it takes a wide range of details from all over. It seems frankly far more reasonable to me that, although the invented history would tell us that Pentans should all be as pale as Northern Europeans, with mostly blonde hair, that because they are reminiscent of Scythians and Alans and peoples of the Eurasian steppe, that they should look as varied as the peoples of that steppe do and did in the real world, but with silly anime hair colors based on elemental affinities etc.

So just about anywhere you go in Genertela, you will find populations that read as racially mixed to us, and everyone dyes their hair as well. I'm not yet bolstered enough by wantonly associating spurious connections to declare that this is also the case in Pamaltela and Vithela as well with text behind me, but that is certainly what I'm thinking.