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Hit points, locations, damage, etc.


Jason D

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I'm undecided myself at the moment. I do like the simplicity and Blood & Thunder aspect of the major wound system, but it can all end in tears rather quickly on an unlucky die roll, which can require some drastic GM intervention. I get the feeling it might work quite well coupled with a Hero Point / Fate Point system to downgrade the *splat you're dead* single rolls.

But I do like the Hit Locations, too. My old RuneQuest games used to always have someone hobbling around with a badly made wooden leg every now and then - and the walking wounded on the road outside the Pavis gate - oh! heavens forbid! It was always rather fun, in a bloody, sick and twisted kind of way :D But, it did slow combat down rather, and I did hate having all those "wasted" pages in scenarios filled with monster hit location stats...

Like I say, can't make my mind up at the moment.

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It very interesting reading peoples different ideas and systems for dealing with wounds.

It does seem to be that whatever system people use is going to be a compromise between simplicity and realisim.

With a cross genre system also makes it kinda difficult.

How do you compare an arrow with a quarrel with a musket ball with a modern bullet with a blaster bolt?

A kevlar vest may protect very well against a soft nosed bullet but do very little against a long bladed knife.

Does the bullet do less damage than the knife?

Do you make armour work diferently against diferent weapons?

You want Han Solo to put down an armoured stormtrooper with a single shot while shirt wearing Leia gets a nasty burn on her arm but can still use it to gun down two troopers.

Is that a diference between the way mooks and heros take damage?

All questions and no answers. Just to keep the fuel of the thread going >:->

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darkeart,

Yes, there are a lot of ways to slice it. One thing about the new BRP is that since it has a modular approach with lots of optional rules, we will all end up customizing it to suit out needs.

My take based on previous BRP experience.

The general tweak in the past was to differentiate damage by weapon type and rate armor accordingly. That way you could have reflective armor that works against lasers but not against slugs or axes, or ballistic armor that is effective against bullets.

I think the new BRP does the same thing, but with some tweaking.

There are other approaches through. One possible "tweak" would be to simply count certain attacks as "armor piecring" and have them halve, third, or quarter armor. For example, a modern bullet will punch through most medieval armors with very little lossof energy. Quartering the AP value would make sense.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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There are other approaches through. One possible "tweak" would be to simply count certain attacks as "armor piecring" and have them halve, third, or quarter armor. For example, a modern bullet will punch through most medieval armors with very little lossof energy. Quartering the AP value would make sense.

Yep, thats exactly the house rule we use. armor piercing attacks/rounds (including warhammers, warpicks etc.) half armor values. Modern guns quarter medieval armor.

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Guest the Bromgrev

Ever since I can remember, we've used an added column for firearms tables, called 'Penetration'. It's a fixed value so for example a 7.62mm FMJ might do 2d8 (5)*, with 5 being the number of armour points it ignores. That way guns can go through light armour without having a hideous damage roll, which would be unrealistic.

*That's a made-up dam. (pen.) stat, by the way, I don't have my tables to hand.

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Ever since I can remember, we've used an added column for firearms tables, called 'Penetration'. It's a fixed value so for example a 7.62mm FMJ might do 2d8 (5)*, with 5 being the number of armour points it ignores. That way guns can go through light armour without having a hideous damage roll, which would be unrealistic.

*That's a made-up dam. (pen.) stat, by the way, I don't have my tables to hand.

That's what Palladium did, sort of. They gave each weapon a PEN score and rated body armor that way.

If BRP is drawing from WoW, then I suspect armor will be rated in K (Kinetic) and B (Ballistic). Basically the same thing. Maybe there will be a default of 1/4 AP from one to the other? A ballistic vest will have some effect on a knife. So a 12 AP kevlar vest providing 3 AP vs Kinetic would seem about right.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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FWIW, a Penetration rating for ballistic-type weapons seems sensible, IMO. I don't know anything about the subject, but the admin would be easy.

Hi-jacking the thread back to where it was a few pages ago...

Leaving aside the precise threshholds for minor/major/mortal wounds, I was just thinking that rolling location only when the blow was significant should keep most people happy. Like my own version where you roll a location, then look up the relevant effect. If the Major Wound table always gave a hit location, wouldn't that be good enough for those who want such detail?

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I agree. Depending on where you drew the major/minor line, you could just do like they did in Strombirnger and put the hit locations in the major wound chart.

The only real drawback to this approach has to do with armor. Hit locations allow for mixed armor. No hit locations either mean using a generic armor value, or using an average armor value for most hits, and tracking location specific armor for major wounds. Or variable armor.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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I agree. Depending on where you drew the major/minor line, you could just do like they did in Strombirnger and put the hit locations in the major wound chart.

The only real drawback to this approach has to do with armor. Hit locations allow for mixed armor. No hit locations either mean using a generic armor value, or using an average armor value for most hits, and tracking location specific armor for major wounds. Or variable armor.

For me, it's not the only real one, but this is truly a big problem.

Hit location permits a different protection value on the different locations (as a flak jacket that don't protect arms).

Another one is that it forbids certain tactics (aiming to strike a certain location to disarm, or to hit more vital area).

The biggest problems I have with the major wound table (I'm speaking of the one of SB1, because this is the only one I have used) is that it is completely random. It may be desirable in SB, where the chaos is the driving force, but I don't think it can be desirable in other settings. Besides that, the wounds caused by a broadsword and a firearm are completely different, and require a different table (I don't see how you can cut the nose of your opponent with a colt peacemaker). If we have several table depending on the weapon, it becomes more complicated than managing the hit locations, and if we don't, the wounds can be aberrant.

And I'm not even speaking of the lethality of the combination of Major wound table / Variable armor. I don't care loosing a character because I'm beaten by a superior foe or because I'm doing mistakes, but I don't like to see the death or the unusability of a character just because of sheer bad luck on 2 consecutive dice rolls.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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For me, it's not the only real one, but this is truly a big problem.

Hit location permits a different protection value on the different locations (as a flak jacket that don't protect arms).

Another one is that it forbids certain tactics (aiming to strike a certain location to disarm, or to hit more vital area).

You are right. It prevents certain tactics in order to be simpler.

The biggest problems I have with the major wound table (I'm speaking of the one of SB1, because this is the only one I have used) is that it is completely random. It may be desirable in SB, where the chaos is the driving force, but I don't think it can be desirable in other settings.

Why? Dont you think that combat is rather chaotic in real life too? Only in cinema and books its usual that the hero controls the situation and wins every time.

Besides that, the wounds caused by a broadsword and a firearm are completely different, and require a different table (I don't see how you can cut the nose of your opponent with a colt peacemaker). If we have several table depending on the weapon, it becomes more complicated than managing the hit locations, and if we don't, the wounds can be aberrant.

Only if you take the table literally. I understand the wound table as guide and not as law. The effects should be similar and if a certain wound rolled dont correspond with the weapon you have, just modify the effect. Eg. in your example the bullet goes in the enemies face and removes his nose.

And I'm not even speaking of the lethality of the combination of Major wound table / Variable armor. I don't care loosing a character because I'm beaten by a superior foe or because I'm doing mistakes, but I don't like to see the death or the unusability of a character just because of sheer bad luck on 2 consecutive dice rolls.

But its realistic to loose your life due to bad luck. If you are unsatisfied because your PC died, then you should overthink your risk management before you begin to combat. Run away, hide in the shadows or hire specialist who are able to win this combat.

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But its realistic to loose your life due to bad luck. If you are unsatisfied because your PC died, then you should overthink your risk management before you begin to combat. Run away, hide in the shadows or hire specialist who are able to win this combat.

I know it is realistic, and I agree with your comments. This is tactics I employ even without the Major wound table. But RPG are GAMES and should be enjoyable. That does not mean I don't want PC to be immortal, but I think BRP is deadly enough, and the extra lethality brought in by the MWT and Variable armor unnecessary. It is in line with setting with SB, so should be used, but I would not use it for the other BRP incarnations.

RQ and CoC are deadly enough.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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I know it is realistic, and I agree with your comments. This is tactics I employ even without the Major wound table. But RPG are GAMES and should be enjoyable.

Of course they should. And everybody has a different view what he enjoys. For me the joy comes fromt the immersion and plausiblity of the setting. BRP is the operating system which provides the link between this setting and us. In short if we cut the lethality and random madness and horror from combat, its not fun for us anymore, because it lowers the setting realism and plausibility. The result is that we dont have that much respect and fear for combat anymore and maybe we do silly fights in situations where in reality it would be plausible to look for a different solution.

That does not mean I don't want PC to be immortal, but I think BRP is deadly enough, and the extra lethality brought in by the MWT and Variable armor unnecessary. It is in line with setting with SB, so should be used, but I would not use it for the other BRP incarnations.

RQ and CoC are deadly enough.

Enough? Maybe in comparision with other rule systems you are right. But in absolute factors, I would not say. I would rather say BRP is reasonable deadly to portray the reality to some extent while staying flexible and simple. I would not want play and dont enjoy anymore a rule system which is not as deadly as BRP.

I can understand your position. You are more into the classical literatic "hero" and cinematic thing than me I assume.

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I know it is realistic, and I agree with your comments. This is tactics I employ even without the Major wound table. But RPG are GAMES and should be enjoyable. That does not mean I don't want PC to be immortal, but I think BRP is deadly enough, and the extra lethality brought in by the MWT and Variable armor unnecessary. It is in line with setting with SB, so should be used, but I would not use it for the other BRP incarnations.

RQ and CoC are deadly enough.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

BRP really isn't that deadly. The ability to kill with one hit is fairly low, and in most cases restricted to impaling weapons that critical. BRP is more lethal than, say, D&D, but there are deadlier games.

One thing about hit locations and Major Wound charts is that they tend to make the game less deadly, as they increase the chances of a character being taken out of a fight while still alive.

BTW, While you can't cut someone's nose off with a peacemaker, you can certianly shoot it off.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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...

For me the joy comes fromt the immersion and plausiblity of the setting. BRP is the operating system which provides the link between this setting and us. In short if we cut the lethality and random madness and horror from combat, its not fun for us anymore, because it lowers the setting realism and plausibility. The result is that we dont have that much respect and fear for combat anymore and maybe we do silly fights in situations where in reality it would be plausible to look for a different solution.

...

Agreed.

...

Enough? Maybe in comparision with other rule systems you are right. But in absolute factors, I would not say. I would rather say BRP is reasonable deadly to portray the reality to some extent while staying flexible and simple. I would not want play and dont enjoy anymore a rule system which is not as deadly as BRP.

...

Also agreed.

QUOTE=Enpeze;4590]

...

You are more into the classical literatic "hero" and cinematic thing than me I assume.

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BRP really isn't that deadly. The ability to kill with one hit is fairly low, and in most cases restricted to impaling weapons that critical. BRP is more lethal than, say, D&D, but there are deadlier games.

...

The ability to kill with one hit in real life is also fairly low. So, BRP lethality pleases me. But if the setting don't require it, I don't wan't EXTRA lethality.

And I agree, there are deadlier games. Some settings required it (cyberpunk for instance).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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The ability to kill with one hit in real life is also fairly low. So, BRP lethality pleases me. But if the setting don't require it, I don't wan't EXTRA lethality.

Kloster

Yeah, but major wounds actually reduce the lethality, as they cause characters to drop. Players otherwise would fight on until they ran out of hit points.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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BRP really isn't that deadly. The ability to kill with one hit is fairly low, and in most cases restricted to impaling weapons that critical. BRP is more lethal than, say, D&D, but there are deadlier games.

I think as of RQ3 you're underrating how bad it could be; almost any crit, impaling or not, could be pretty lethal for characters without a good Size and Con if it hit head or possibly chest. The change between RQ2 and RQ3 in regard to the threshold effects for negative values in these locations could be unforgiving (which is one reason it changed again when RQ: AIG was under development).

One thing about hit locations and Major Wound charts is that they tend to make the game less deadly, as they increase the chances of a character being taken out of a fight while still alive.

Yes and no. Locations make you more likely to go down without dying from THP, but the torso and head location hits can be potentially lethal much more quickly.

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I think as of RQ3 you're underrating how bad it could be; almost any crit, impaling or not, could be pretty lethal for characters without a good Size and Con if it hit head or possibly chest. The change between RQ2 and RQ3 in regard to the threshold effects for negative values in these locations could be unforgiving (which is one reason it changed again when RQ: AIG was under development).

Yes and no. Locations make you more likely to go down without dying from THP, but the torso and head location hits can be potentially lethal much more quickly.

Head hits yeah, and the same for abdomen, since they were set at 1/3rd HP. Chest a bit less so, since it was at .40 HP. But with the melee hit location chart there was only a 30% chance of getting a hit on the abdomen, chest, or head, with 70% of all hits going to limbs.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Yeah, but major wounds actually reduce the lethality, as they cause characters to drop. Players otherwise would fight on until they ran out of hit points.

This is exactly my point. With the MWT, this is random. With the hit locations, player choose to remain or not (if they are not disabled). If they die, this is their choice to have taken the risk (barring the disabling or killing blows).

I never complained about BRP being lethal, I like that. But I like to be able to choose my strategies. I can choose to be heroic and having a high chance to die, or backing out and play safer.

What I don't like is the random extra lethality, especially (as noted) when coupled with random armor.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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Head hits yeah, and the same for abdomen, since they were set at 1/3rd HP. Chest a bit less so, since it was at .40 HP. But with the melee hit location chart there was only a 30% chance of getting a hit on the abdomen, chest, or head, with 70% of all hits going to limbs.

It only needs one, however, and over the course of their career a lot of attacks are launched at a character; sometimes a lot are launched at _someone_ in even a single game. Look at the likelyhood, overall, of rolling at least _one_ 01 over successive percentile rolls some time. Its instructive how quickly it racks up.

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It only needs one, however, and over the course of their career a lot of attacks are launched at a character; sometimes a lot are launched at _someone_ in even a single game. Look at the likelyhood, overall, of rolling at least _one_ 01 over successive percentile rolls some time. Its instructive how quickly it racks up.

True, but the same effect applies in BRP. A crtical from an implaling weapon like a spear or sword is typically going to do enough damage to kill a character. An 18 point arrow or spear hit that bypasses armor will kill over 99% of PCs. So the hit locations don't make the game any more deadly as far as crticals are concerned.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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True, but the same effect applies in BRP. A crtical from an implaling weapon like a spear or sword is typically going to do enough damage to kill a character. An 18 point arrow or spear hit that bypasses armor will kill over 99% of PCs. So the hit locations don't make the game any more deadly as far as crticals are concerned.

In fact, in that case, hit locations reduce lethality because the damage done can not bring the location below destruction (minus starting value) and the THP taken is equal to the damage taken to the location. Of course, if the location is head, chest or abdomen, this is instant death.

So, for criticals, I agree, hit locations don't change anything.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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BRP really isn't that deadly. The ability to kill with one hit is fairly low, and in most cases restricted to impaling weapons that critical. BRP is more lethal than, say, D&D, but there are deadlier games.

Really? Which games do you know? I guess you meant Harn, Riddle of Steel...?

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